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[Br3admax]

They grew up in Orlais, as did Leliana and she is considered Orlesian.

She's also culturally Orlesian. Duncan isn't. 

[Ynqve]

Or the Crown? Or her Subordinates?
She'll be a dead or deposed divine in no time at all.

 

Celene is way to busy fighting Gaspard and Briala - again. I think my Divine will be fine. 

[Colonelkillabee]

What you don't like Stroud, Duncan or Rhiordan?

Duncan's from Highever. His mother is Rivainian and his father's a ferelden.

 

Stroud is whatever to me. Riordan however, yea that guy was the ****, lol.

 

I didn't say I disliked Blackwall for being orlesian.. it was just a point against him. Until now

[Augustei]

Celene is way to busy fighting Gaspard and Briala - again. I think my Divine will be fine. 

But she isn't fighting them, not outright, she is fighting a shadow war with them. Which means she will be much more reliant on the favor of the nobles, and much more willing to listen to them.

[Augustei]

She's also culturally Orlesian. Duncan isn't. 

Duncan's from Highever. His mother is Rivainian and his father's a ferelden.

Eh Duncan isn't really culturally anything, we know nothing about him beyond him growing up in Val Royeaux and his father being a carpenter there.
But still, the fact he grew up in the Orlesian Capital, its likely Orlesian culture has had an influence on him.

[Ieldra]

As I see it, the death of the man Blackwall has become would be a loss to the world, and the Inquisition. The only thing I find annoying about him is that he preaches with the zeal of the newly-converted. I have yet to see his post-reveal romance, so I'll hold off on my judgment on that until then.

 

In general, I think like most people who did something they regret, he deserves a second chance.

[jellobell]

My difficulty comes in who to romance him with (I had planned on doing all the romances except Sera's - who just doesn't seem mature enough for a real romance).  Before game release I had planned on romancing him with a naïve Qunari mage who was drawn in by the mystique of the Grey Wardens and who would accept his eventual calling as part of her maturing into the leader she needed to be.  However, I'm not sure she fits him now, maybe if I still make him join the Grey Wardens this could work.  The other option is my reckless and rather mercenary carta dwarf archer who I had planned for Bull.  She would probably take Rainier's secret in stride (I'm sure she has done some pretty bad things in service to the Carta) but I'm not sure she would get along with him very well, he is a bit idealistic for her.  Bull's rather practical approach with his underlying kindness may still be the better redemptive arc for her.

Yeah, I was initially planning on romancing him with a warmhearted Qunari who is committed to helping people. But now I'm not so sure. I do like Blackwall, but at the same time...I'm not sure I want to romance him. While I wasn't romancing him I was perfectly comfortable ordering his release because there was still a certain objectivity there. However if he was also my Inquisitor's lover I would've felt really squicked. Even worse is that he kisses you in front of everybody after you make your judgement. That just throws the Inquisitor's credibility right out the window.

[Ynqve]

But she isn't fighting them, not outright, she is fighting a shadow war with them. Which means she will be much more reliant on the favor of the nobles, and much more willing to listen to them.

 

No, it means that no one wants to force the Inquisition to move against them because that would weaken them against the other two. 

[Archerwarden]

I'm on Team Beard Squad. He did make a horrible mistake, his intention wasn't to kill the family of the guy, but his greed got the better of his decision making. Since that mistake, he has been doing his best to atone for his actions. Blackwall haters seem to forget the fact he stopped an arrow from going into your face. (Unless you are a dwarf, that shot was going over your head.)

He didn't just make a mistake.His whole life is one cowardly action after another. Stopping one arrow doesn't make up for the fact that he was a Captain in the Army - what he did was dishonorable. Then instead of manning up he hides behind anothers identity. Lying to every single person he has contact with from that moment on.

If he really wanted to atone, he would make amend with every single man and/or his family under his command then turn himself in for execution.

Ugh - this is the worst character I've ever seen.

[Br3admax]

Eh Duncan isn't really culturally anything, we know nothing about him beyond him growing up in Val Royeaux and his father being a carpenter there.
But still, the fact he grew up in the Orlesian Capital, its likely Orlesian culture has had an influence on him.

Oresian's culture has influence on everybody by proxy. Did it really surprised you, "That the Empire is at the center of everyone's world," really?" That's not really saying anything. And Duncan himself hasn't shown himself to be...whatever fainting in the street is.  

[Augustei]

No, it means that no one wants to force the Inquisition to move against them because that would weaken them against the other two. 

Orlais is much more powerful than the Inquisition, If the majority of the nobles favor a course of action the throne will follow the nobles, not the Inquisition. Thus why both rulers are willing to persue cold relations with the Inquistion and give them cold receptions at court in the epilogues with low noble approval.

[Archerwarden]

No, all those other peoples sins were in the past. Reiners additional crimes were in the present. He passed himself as A Grey Warden in my ranks and gave me the documents to conscript on his behalf into our ranks, Thus did we conscript illegally and this could potentially be found out and be severely damaging to us. That the plot has this happen after we've garnered a deal of influence is irrelevent, he joined us in our infancy when this could have concluded in a much worse result.
And while he was hiding in our ranks as A Grey Warden, his men were still being executed for the orders he gave them and he knew it. They weren't already dead, his crime was still occouring. He could have turned himself in sooner but he waited until many of them had already been executed.

He didn't try to make up for it at all until he pledges himself to our service after we break him out of prison and pardon him, before that when he initially joins us he was just a coward having us endanger our cause and hiding behind a false name while his men were still dying for his crimes and he was doing nothing to stop it.

Also funny how you mock those "Orlesian pusses". The very people who made up the majority of your forces =P

Agree. You said it much better too.

[Ynqve]

Orlais is much more powerful than the Inquisition, If the majority of the nobles favor a course of action the throne will follow the nobles, not the Inquisition. Thus why both rulers are willing to persue cold relations with the Inquistion and give them cold receptions at court in the epilogues with low noble approval.

 

Lol, you do know that the nobles are split between Gaspard and Celene? They can't unite against anything, because they're too busy with their petty schemes and stupid games. If you do what I did, then Orlais is severely weakened. And that works just fine for me. 

 

Besides, I doubt that the Orlesian nobility got that butthurt over the treaties. They had to pitch in to help save themselves a little bit earlier than they would have otherwise. Boo ****** hoo.

[MrsHairyMcLummox]

Agree. You said it much better too.

 

Being the Joining Ritual kept secret by the Order, according to the law of Thedas one becomes a warden the very moment he's recruited, whether voluntarily or by Right of Conscription. The Grey Wardens during the First Blight called themselves 'Brothers' and felt part of a secretive order even before the Joining Ritual was invented, and it took decades. This means he technically is a Warden, though a peculiar one whose Joining has been postponed due to unfortunate circumstances. 

He owns the Real Treaties, not a stolen copy, and he IS a warden since he was recruited, Orlesian nobles aren't supposed to know about the Joining and the Taint, so he actually HELPS the Inquisition by giving the chance to use the Treaties.

[jellobell]

Well, what he did isn't more detestable than giving the orb to Corypheus nearly causing the destruction of the whole world, that means all the children and the puppies in the world slowly dying encrusted with red lyrium, for instance -.-

Honestly? I'm not so sure about that. Depending, of course, on what Solas's motivations and plan was, it seems like he needed Cory to open his orb in order to recover his power. Based on what he says during the game, Solas believed that opening the orb would cause Corypheus's death (which was a valid assumption if you didn't know about his body-snatching powers). Thus, no more Cory and Solas has his powers back. In addition, it's heavily hinted that he wants to use his powers in order to help the elves. So he not only never wanted any of this to happen, but he was motivated out of a desire to help people. In addition, the first thing he does when he sees what happened is go straight to the people trying to close the breach and offer his aid, even though that may have resulted in his imprisonment for being an apostate. I find that much more sympathetic than someone who betrayed those who relied on him for money and then ran away.

 

However, this is comparing Solas's actions to Blackwall's past actions (which he has since tried to atone for), which isn't entirely fair. And I don't hold Blackwall lying to the Inquisitor against him. But I don't think that you can just point at Solas and say that what he did was no better than what Blackwall did. Their motives were entirely different.

 

Actually, the banters that Solas has with Blackwall post-reveal illustrate this better than I ever could. So here you go:

 

Banter #1

• Blackwall: You haven't said much to me since...well, you know.
• Solas: There is little to say. I assumed we were alike. We'd seen war, knew its terrible costs, but understood that it was necessary. But there was nothing necessary in what you did. You did not survive death and destruction. You sowed them. To feed your own desires.
• Blackwall: I know that. I see it every time I look in a mirror. I try to make up for it.
• Solas: By wearing another skin. You ran away rather than face what you had done. You wasted your time.

Banter #2

• Solas: I wish to apologize for what I said to you, Blackwall.
• Blackwall: You were right, though. I deserved it.
• Solas: My people had a saying long ago - "The healer has the bloodiest hands." You cannot treat a wound without knowing how deep it goes. You cannot heal pain by hiding it. You must accept. Accept the blood to make things better. You have taken the first step. That is the hardest part.

[Hazegurl]

Blackwall a hero? Who did he save but one man who blindly followed his orders? He admitted that he never would have even stepped forward if the guy didn't get caught. Some hero.

 

I also don't believe he is sorry for anything. The moment he is confronted he pulls the classic "You're no better than me" BS. Like a thief who breaks into someone's house then say "Well he's rich and probably a crappy boss and I bet some poor worker is happy this is happening"  That's just trying to bring those you've victimized down to your level instead of just being sorry for what you've done.

 

Blackwall has lied for so long to the point where he has developed a massive ego and can only see how everything relates to him. To the point where he believes pulling strings and releasing him would set the entire world against the Inquisition.

 

Although I would prefer to leave him in his cell to rot I release him as a slave to the Inquisition and make reparations to the nobles who were duped by his treaties. Let him keep living his lie, perhaps use him for diplomatic purposes with the Dwarves or something, then I'll probably send him to the deep roads when I'm done with him so he can die like a "real" Grey Warden. lol!

 

Edit: Also, as much as I would love to believe the Inquisition can say "Screw Orlais I do what I want." That is hardly the truth. If a powerful nation such as Orlais were to bring their full might down on the Inquisition, there is no way the organization could survive, period. That is why I picked Josie at the war table to appease the nobles. I love Cullen but he was just being stupid with his advice.

 

Spoiler

[MrsHairyMcLummox]

 

Honestly? I'm not so sure about that. Depending, of course, on what Solas's motivations and plan was, it seems like he needed Cory to open his orb in order to recover his power. Based on what he says during the game, Solas believed that opening the orb would cause Corypheus's death (which was a valid assumption if you didn't know about his body-snatching powers). Thus, no more Cory and Solas has his powers back. In addition, it's heavily hinted that he wants to use his powers in order to help the elves. So he not only never wanted any of this to happen, but he was motivated out of a desire to help people. In addition, the first thing he does when he sees what happened is go straight to the people trying to close the breach and offer his aid, even though that may have resulted in his imprisonment for being an apostate. I find that much more sympathetic than someone who betrayed those who relied on him for money and then ran away.

 

However, this is comparing Solas's actions to Blackwall's past actions (which he has since tried to atone for), which isn't entirely fair. And I don't hold Blackwall lying to the Inquisitor against him. But I don't think that you can just point at Solas and say that what he did was no better than what Blackwall did. Their motives were entirely different.

 

Actually, the banters that Solas has with Blackwall post-reveal illustrate this better than I ever could. So here you go:

 

Banter #1

• Blackwall: You haven't said much to me since...well, you know.
• Solas: There is little to say. I assumed we were alike. We'd seen war, knew its terrible costs, but understood that it was necessary. But there was nothing necessary in what you did. You did not survive death and destruction. You sowed them. To feed your own desires.
• Blackwall: I know that. I see it every time I look in a mirror. I try to make up for it.
• Solas: By wearing another skin. You ran away rather than face what you had done. You wasted your time.

Banter #2

• Solas: I wish to apologize for what I said to you, Blackwall.
• Blackwall: You were right, though. I deserved it.
• Solas: My people had a saying long ago - "The healer has the bloodiest hands." You cannot treat a wound without knowing how deep it goes. You cannot heal pain by hiding it. You must accept. Accept the blood to make things better. You have taken the first step. That is the hardest part.

 

 

It's true that we don't know yet what Solas actually did and why, about being an apostate who endangers his freedom to help I'd just like to point out that Solas is just the earthly disguise of an ancient God, I bet he can abandon that elven body whenever he wants to.

 

It’s not Rainier the one who killed the children, but his men. They were not an army of brainless zombies, they could have stopped before striking children dead. They were as guilty as him, if not worse, imho. It wasn’t Rainier the one who killed them, his men did. Funny, his men, the real murderers of children, have become other poor victims of ‘Rainier the monster’. 

 

If Solas isn't a good comparison because of his intentions let's talk about The Iron Bull. 

 

When you first meet Krem he says about The Iron Bull: "He’s professional, we accept contracts with whoever makes the first real offer […] We’re loyal, we’re tough, and we don’t break contracts. Ask around Val Royeaux, we’ve got references."

This means that what Blackwall/Rainier did only once in his life, i.e. accepting a hire job to kill an Orlesian Grand-Gamer, was in fact Iron Bull’s daily bread and butter. The Iron Bull and his chargers made a living out of killing shems, as Skinner will later say in Skyhold - and she seems to enjoy it a great deal too. The Iron Bull accepted every contract if the offer was good enough.  Blackwall/Rainier did it only once in his life and has become the monster who kills innocents for money. The Iron Bull did it on a daily basis and he’s ok.

 

Krem: "You’re the first time he’s gone out of his way to pick a side."

This means that The Iron Bull wants to stop being a mere mercenary and wants to fight for the greater good…. BUT, he doesn’t join for free like Blackwall, he wants to be paid good money for it.

 

I often wonder why is people so concerned about Rainier's and Sten's punishment and/or atonement for their actions while all the other characters who did same can walk free and happy and be loved by our ocs?

In both cases children are involved, but I think there's also another thing they have in common: they are both jailed, waiting for execution, and the player is called upon to judge them. 

Both Rainier and Sten - I keep calling him Rainier because at the time he wasn't Blackwall yet - did only one mistake that ended in a massacre of an entire family. They both were not criminals but well respected professionists who did their honest job as soldiers, and their one and only crime resulted in arrest and detention.

There are many other characters in our party who did the same things but on a larger scale. Zevran was a professional assassin, The Iron Bull a mercenary with excellent references in Orlais, Solas an old god who endangered the whole world and joins the Inquisition because he has to fix the mess he caused... etcetera.

I wonder if we had to recruit The Iron Bull or Zevran releasing them from jail after their employers entrapped them, making one of their many many many contracts result in a massacre. Would the player's perspective against them change? I think so.

Some people claim that if instead of the Callier family there were their loved ones they would chase and kill Blackwall with their own hands. Ok, but this could as well be applied to all the people Zevran or Leliana or The Iron Bull and his chargers killed for money. 

[Archerwarden]

Being the Joining Ritual kept secret by the Order, according to the law of Thedas one becomes a warden the very moment he's recruited, whether voluntarily or by Right of Conscription. The Grey Wardens during the First Blight called themselves 'Brothers' and felt part of a secretive order even before the Joining Ritual was invented, and it took decades. This means he technically is a Warden, though a peculiar one whose Joining has been postponed due to unfortunate circumstances. 
He owns the Real Treaties not a stolen copy and he IS a warden since he was recruited, Orlesian nobles aren't supposed to know about the Joining and the Taint, so he actually HELPS the Inquisition by giving the chance to use the Treaties.

He took the name and Identity of the real Blackwall. To hide. In DAO you are a warden the moment you take the cup. As far as I know Thom did not do that - therefore he is not a Warden.
And even if he did take the joining, he left his men to die, betrayed his unit, his rank, his country. He has assumed another mans identity. He is pretending to be someone he is not because he is to cowardly to admit what he did. Nothing he can do will forgive that.

[MrsHairyMcLummox]

Blackwall a hero? Who did he save but one man who blindly followed his orders? He admitted that he never would have even stepped forward if the guy didn't get caught. Some hero.

 

 

- He saves the Inquisitor’s life blocking and arrow directed to his/her head. I would never execute a man who saved my life, whatever he might have done.

- He spent the last 5 years of his life defending commoners from the darkspawn, and those who played Awakening should have an idea about how badly they affect farmer’s lives —-> tons of human lives saved.

- Giles, a farmer you find in the Hinterlands, tells you that he saved the refugees from the demons coming from the rifts —-> more human lives saved.

- He puts all his knowledge at disposal of the Inquisition, like the Treaties and all the wardens artifacts, plus his great professionality as a warrior. He doesn’t spare himself waiting for someone else to fix things unlike many who just watch, do nothing, and judge.

- He gives himself up to justice to avoid an ‘innocent’ man to die (innocent is in quotation marks because I’m not a fan of the ‘I was only following orders’ thing)

- He fights alongside the Inquisition in countless battles, helping to save the world and thus earning the title of hero like the real Blackwall did before him. 

—-> world saved

 

 

Is it enough people saved for your taste?

[Archerwarden]

MrsRobinrainer:
Iron Bull is a merc not military. Blackwall was military. He was the unit Captain I believe. He ordered and lied to his men. He did nothing while his men were caught and excecuted. And then he ran away and hid. He is guilty. No amount of feeling sorry for himself later can wipe that slate clean. He had the chance to save his men but he did nothing.
Blackwell is military. That is the only reason. You can not compare his actions to a merc or to an assassin.

And he is living a lie. Falsifying who he is to people who cannot fend for themselves. And he leaves them when something better comes along.


Edited: because I messed up the quote
[/quote]

[AtreiyaN7]

Thom is nothing more than a weak,cowardly, repulsive excuse for a man. He betrays his unit, his men and his country, murders a family for gold. Does nothing while the men under him take the blame. Because he is a weak cowardly man he runs away bumps into a real Hero the Warden Blackwall and first chance he gets he impersonates him. Very definition of Stolen Valor.Thom could have continued to Weishaupt or wherever they were headed and tried to become a Warden but once again took the easy way out. Stealing a mans identity is not honoring that person, to honor that person you would do something as in build a statue - not take over his identity.Wanted nothing more than to execute this coward.

You keep going on about stolen valor? Well, here then: http://www.stripes.c...-valor-1.107359

______________
"Stolen Valor” is a term applied to the phenomenon of people falsely claiming military awards or badges they did not earn, service they did not perform, Prisoner of War experiences that never happened, and other tales of military derring-do that exist only in their minds.

Some phonies, with zero military experience, create their stories from whole cloth.

Others, having served an honorable but peaceful stint in the military, choose to embellish their records and “spice up” an otherwise unremarkable career.
______________

And from the wiki on the Stolen Valor Act of 2005: http://en.m.wikipedi...lor_Act_of_2005

__________
The Act was passed to address the issue of persons claiming to have been awarded military awards to which they were not entitled and exploiting their deception for personal gain. For example, as of June 2, 2006, there were only 120 living Medal of Honor recipients, but there were far more known imposters.[10][11][12] There were also large numbers of people fraudulently claiming to be Navy SEALS[13][14] and Army Special Forces,[15] among others.
__________

Hey, so there's your actual definition of actual "stolen valor" according to a military newspaper AND the Stolen Valor Act itself - seeing as it seems to be your favorite (and inaccurate, in my opinion) phrase to throw around about Blackwall. You might note that what Rainier did doesn't actually fall into the category of stolen valor, particularly as defined by that section that I pasted in from the wiki about the Stolen Valor Act itself.

At no point does Rainier try to falsely claim miltary honors or awards or POW experiences or anything like that for the purposes of personal gain of any kind. He does lie about where he was during the Fifth Blight and is vague about things that Wardens should know, but none of that was done for the purpose of stealing the real Blackwall's glory or his honor or his valor for personal gain. Rainier took on Blackwall's identity to survive at the time AND in part to honor the man who had saved his life, whether you like hearing that or not.

And once the lie is over with, there's certainly no reason for Rainier to lie about his motivations for what he did or why he did it. He's honest about it and about why he didn't continue on to Val Chevin, and his fear at the time about them not believing his story isn't unjustified (because despite the fact that Wardens do accept all kinds of criminals, there really was no guarantee that they would have believed his story about what happened in the Storm Coast, even though the story about Blackwall saving his life was clearly true).

Again, Rainier's story is one about a man who does act cowardly and who does start out as a self-interested, selfish person. Ultimately, with hindsight, a considerable amount of regret and remorse, and a lot of time to change, he becomes the kind of person that he wants to be: someone who would sacrifice his life for the greater good and who does stop running. Hate him all you want for what he did in the past, but you can't deny the objective fact that he chose to stop pretending and went to Val Royeaux to save his former second-in-command's life at the cost of his own.

I wouldn't call Blackwall a hero, but he does end up being a good man who tries to do the right thing. If you want to blame him for participating in the Game by agreeing to take money for that assassination job, then hey, why don't you go condemn all of Orlais while you're at it. I'll repeat what I said in the other thread about how, if you listen to what Rainier says while in prison, it really is true that this is how nobility really wages war - they do it by ending bloodlines.

And I'm pretty sure that his employer, Ser Robert, knew that the children would be there but lied about it so that Rainier would unwittingly end up killing them. Per all the Blackwall-Cole banter, it's made quite clear that Rainier had no idea that those children would be there and was, in fact, horrified when he found out that there were children present.

By the time the attack was underway, it was too late to stop it (although it's also clear that in his heart of hearts, the man that he is now would have stopped it if he could have). He ended up caught in a no-win situation at the time; per the Blackwall-Cole banter, he wanted to stop it but knew that if he did, his men would know that they had been lied to. Additionally, I expect that even had they stopped right then (the axes were hammering at the door according to what Cole said at one point, so the attack was already underway), there would probably have been hell to pay one way or another.

The person he was back then wasn't brave enough to face up to the consequences of his actions, so yeah, he ran. But again, don't forget that the person he became did stop running and chose to face up to what he had done, which was undeniably a brave act. Or do you know a whole lot of people who would willingly go to the gallows to pay for their crimes with no expectation of a reprieve?

[MrsHairyMcLummox]

MrsRobinrainer:
Iron Bull is a merc not military. Blackwall was military. He was the unit Captain I believe. He ordered and lied to his men. He did nothing while his men were caught and excecuted. And then he ran away and hid. He is guilty. No amount of feeling sorry for himself later can wipe that slate clean. He had the chance to save his men but he did nothing.
Blackwell is military. That is the only reason. You can not compare his actions to a merc or to an assassin.

And he is living a lie. Falsifying who he is to people who cannot fend for themselves. And he leaves them when something better comes along.


Edited: because I messed up the quote
[/quote]

 

So is it worse being a honest professionist and make one mistake than leading a life of crime?

 

His men killed the children, not him. He ran, ok, he did nothing for them, ok. He did wrong I can't deny it. He was given a second chance by being recruited in the wardens and his mentor died a few hours before the Joining, he decided to become Blackwall because he needed to change skin not to feel the weight of guilt and be a new man. If he just wanted to hide he could have chosen something much less demanding don't you think?

 

Warden Constable Blackwall was the very embodiment of selflessness and courage, a man Rainier didn't believe could exist in the real world. The idea that amidst all the wrecks he must have met in his travels he had chosen to recruit him and become his mentor was helping him regain the self-respect he had lost along the way. He felt reborn.I believe that during the travel to Weisshaupt the real Blackwall and Rainier had the chance to become friends and to know each other. I'm sure Warden Constable Blackwall told Thom Rainier that joining the Grey Wardens meant erase a man's past, whatever it was, that it was the start of a new life, a chance to atone and become someone to be proud of, and not just a quick way to escape justice. That was exactly what Rainier wanted to hear and needed to believe. He also wanted to give back Blackwall to a world in desperate need of heroes, and he acted like one since the day he brought his name. 

 

The way Rainier/Blackwall tells the Inquisitor these words "Being a Grey Warden is not just about sensing darkspawn, it is an ideal, it's a promise..." makes me think that these are the real Blackwall's words echoing in his mind. But I'm sure you know better than the real Blackwall, being a warden is all about sensing darkspawn and having a charming pallor due to the Taint.

[Archerwarden]

Oh please blah blah blah.

He pretended to be a Warden, took the identity, took the acclaim. Really you are stretching.

He only stopped pretending and made a grand stand at the gallows to save 1 of his men when he was under the protection of the inquisitor. He sent a message to the inquisitor so the inquisitor would know exactly where to find him.

If he was that horrified he would have turned himself in and saved his men from the gallows much earlier. But only did so once with the inquisition. After leaving those people in the Hinterlands that he was supposedly protecting. That he did not is another indication that he is a coward.

And if he ran while in the Army that makes him a deserter too.


You misunderstand I do not hate the character. He is beneath hating.

And I am not convinced he is anything but a selfish coward. And it is Stolen Valor when you take the honor of being a Military/Veteran with out having been. The Grey Wardens are similar to a military unit - so yes I will band that monikor about when describing him.

[jellobell]

It's true that we don't know yet what Solas actually did and why, about being an apostate who endangers his freedom to help I'd just like to point out that Solas is just the earthly disguise of an ancient God, I bet he can abandon that elven body whenever he wants to.

Actually, by every indication Solas is the real deal. If you bring him along during In Hushed Whispers, he's trapped along with the rest of the party, slowly being eaten alive by red lyrium for an entire year before the Inquisitor shows up. He's not invincible. He is in real danger when he goes back and puts himself at Cassandra's mercy.

 

It’s not Rainier the one who killed the children, but his men. They were not an army of brainless zombies, they could have stopped before striking children dead. They were as guilty as him, if not worse, imho. It wasn’t Rainier the one who killed them, his men did. Funny, his men, the real murderers of children, have become other poor victims of ‘Rainier the monster’.

But he'd told them they were doing it for their country. They were loyal to Orlais, and they were loyal to their commanding officer. They were fighting for a cause, for their families, and for a man they trusted to know what was right. And he used that trust and that belief to manipulate them into doing his dirty work. That is monstrous behavior, and Blackwall freely admits that it was.

 

 

When you first meet Krem he says about The Iron Bull: "He’s professional, we accept contracts with whoever makes the first real offer […] We’re loyal, we’re tough, and we don’t break contracts. Ask around Val Royeaux, we’ve got references."

This means that what Blackwall/Rainier did only once in his life, i.e. accepting a hire job to kill an Orlesian Grand-Gamer, was in fact Iron Bull’s daily bread and butter. The Iron Bull and his chargers made a living out of killing shems, as Skinner will later say in Skyhold - and she seems to enjoy it a great deal too. The Iron Bull accepted every contract if the offer was good enough.  Blackwall/Rainier did it only once in his life and has become the monster who kills innocents for money. The Iron Bull did it on a daily basis and he’s ok

 

Yup, Iron Bull kills for money, among other things. He also wrangles giants. And every single one of his men and women know this and are also okay with it. He never ever lies to the people who trust him with their lives. That is his guarantee to them, the guarantee that any commander makes to the people under his charge. The guarantee that Rainier broke. That more than anything is why I believe his actions were monstrous.

 

However if you still want to compare him to Bull, both Bull and Krem talk about jobs that they've turned down. And Bull has his own code of ethics. Based on what he says about fighting the Tal'vashoth, who do kill children, Bull would never take on a contract where he'd have to do that. Finding a building full of dead kids and Tamassrans is one of the things that still haunts him to this day.

 

But really, I acknowledge that Rainier did not know the children would be there. He did not set out to kill children (even though he was willing to let it happen). However he very intentionally lied and manipulated people who had put their trust in him, and that is pretty unforgiveable. None of the other companions have done that. 

[Hazegurl]

 

- He saves the Inquisitor’s life blocking and arrow directed to his/her head. I would never execute a man who saved my life, whatever he might have done.

- He spent the last 5 years of his life defending commoners from the darkspawn, and those who played Awakening should have an idea about how badly they affect farmer’s lives —-> tons of human lives saved.

- Giles, a farmer you find in the Hinterlands, tells you that he saved the refugees from the demons coming from the rifts —-> more human lives saved.

- He puts all his knowledge at disposal of the Inquisition, like the Treaties and all the wardens artifacts, plus his great professionality as a warrior. He doesn’t spare himself waiting for someone else to fix things unlike many who just watch, do nothing, and judge.

- He gives himself up to justice to avoid an ‘innocent’ man to die (innocent is in quotation marks because I’m not a fan of the ‘I was only following orders’ thing)

- He fights alongside the Inquisition in countless battles, helping to save the world and thus earning the title of hero like the real Blackwall did before him. 

—-> world saved

 

 

Is it enough people saved for your taste?

 

-The IQ never would have been there if it weren't for his lie.

-Saving those lives is the least he can do and it isn't like he didn't gain something from it. He got to enjoy the praise heaped on him.

-His false treaties got the Inquisition in hot water and could have ruined everything if discovered much earlier.

-An innocent man who spent most of his time running from the law while Blackwall conveniently became a "Grey Warden." 

-I barely used him except during my 1st pt and even then I didn't even take him to fight Cory. So no he didn't save the world.

- oh yeah, and if you don't get along with him, he never saves the man. He just sits in the barn passing judgment while being a fake GW.

 

Nope not enough. He's still my dog who will die in the deep roads. Let's see how many darkspawn and archdemons he can just "stab a bunch of times until dead."