1018 réponses à ce sujet

[Archerwarden]

So is it worse being a honest professionist and make one mistake than leading a life of crime?
 
His men killed the children, not him. He ran, ok, he did nothing for them, ok. He did wrong I can't deny it. He was given a second chance by being recruited in the wardens and his mentor died a few hours before the Joining, he decided to become Blackwall because he needed to change skin not to feel the weight of guilt and be a new man. If he just wanted to hide he could have chosen something much less demanding don't you think?
 
Warden Constable Blackwall was the very embodiment of selflessness and courage, a man Rainier didn't believe could exist in the real world. The idea that amidst all the wrecks he must have met in his travels he had chosen to recruit him and become his mentor was helping him regain the self-respect he had lost along the way. He felt reborn.I believe that during the travel to Weisshaupt the real Blackwall and Rainier had the chance to become friends and to know each other. I'm sure Warden Constable Blackwall told Thom Rainier that joining the Grey Wardens meant erase a man's past, whatever it was, that it was the start of a new life, a chance to atone and become someone to be proud of, and not just a quick way to escape justice. That was exactly what Rainier wanted to hear and needed to believe. He also wanted to give back Blackwall to a world in desperate need of heroes, and he acted like one since the day he brought his name. 
 
The way Rainier/Blackwall tells the Inquisitor this words "Being a Grey Warden is not just about sensing darkspawn, it is an ideal, it's a promise..." makes me think that these are the real Blackwall's words echoing in his mind. But I'm sure you know better than the real Blackwall, being a warden is all about sensing darkspawn and having a charming pallor due to the Taint.

He decided to become Blackwall - just ask yourself what kind of person impersonates another? That is not the actions of a normal person. A normal person would have turned himself in. Blackwall wanted to something other than himself and took the cowardly route instead of standing up like a man and taking the consequence. Or doing the real work and changing with his own name and identity.
He was not a member of the Grey Wardens, yes he was recruited to become one but he did not actually become one.
He spouts a lot about being a Grey Warden I will give you that.

Its totally irrelevant what the real Blackwell thought of him. The real Blackwell died and this guy took his name to hide and lied.

[Korva]

@Archerwarden: If you want to blame Blackwall for leaving those fishermen after the bandits who threatened them are killed, do you also blame your own character for not hanging out forever in every former trouble-hotspot instead of moving on to help more people elsewhere? It's also blatantly untrue that he "sends you a message" after leaving. He only leaves a farewell, it's Leliana's agents who figure out where he went and why.

 

I agree that no amount of feeling sorry changes a whit about anyone's guilt. I also think that Rainier should have gone ahead to the Wardens even without proof but with the real Blackwall's belongings, and taken the Joining instead of faking to be that "better man" for years. He is decidedly flawed even in his atonement, even in his reactions in jail and at the judgment -- because he's an emotional wreck at that point. It's a credible human reaction. He's trying to push us away, doesn't want us to see him like this, much less show him sympathy.

 

What does change him is his willingness, despite all his flaws, to help and bleed for others. That is sincere. It doesn't bring back the dead ... but neither does killing him. While he lives as a changed man, he can do something good with himself, usually for people whom the proper authorities couldn't or wouldn't reach. The Blackwall we know would stop Rainier, has stopped other "Rainiers". Again, that is much more than most powers-that-be who would condemn him have done. I'll trust the words of our resident mind-reading spirit -- biased in favor of mercy though his nature makes him -- over pretty much any mortal's even more biased judgment on this.

 

Was I pissed off by some of his words in jail and at the judgement? Sure. But as I said, he was trying to push us away, and he also has a point. The reborn  Inquisition is not immune to corruption. We could go the same way he did, the same way as the nobles of Orlais, as the templars and the rebel mages and the Seekers and the first Inquisition. If the Inquisitor -- Andraste's own Herald, the living embodiment of the Maker's will in the eyes of many -- gave a problematic order, how many of our soldiers would balk at it?

 

We players like to tell ourselves that of course we're better, smatter, wiser. That we're always justified in what we do. That our authority is not corrupt. Blah blah blah. All bullshit, and the fastest and surest way to fall to that same corruption if plot armor didn't protect us. We NEED people questioning us and holding a mirror to our face. I verbally can rip Rainier/Blackwall up one side and down the other while also appreciating that reminder, and then free him to atone in the only way that actually makes a difference: not death, but a life of sacrifice and service to make the world safer for the helpless and innocent.

[ComedicSociopathy]

But really, I acknowledge that Rainier did not know the children would be there. He did not set out to kill children (even though he was willing to let it happen). However he very intentionally lied and manipulated people who had put their trust in him, and that is pretty unforgiveable. None of the other companions have done that. 

 

 Isabela. Morrigan. Fricking "I'm actually a god" Solas.

 

Are they also unforgivable for lying?

[TheTurtle]

Being sorry for something doesn't make you a hero it just makes you less of an *******.

[Xetykins]

He is not a hero. He needs to kill thousands for that title. Then all is well and acceptable. And he is a lier because he is not pretty enough, or a god:-)
/sarcasm off

[jellobell]

We NEED people questioning us and holding a mirror to our face. I verbally can rip Rainier/Blackwall up one side and down the other while also appreciating that reminder, and then free him to atone in the only way that actually makes a difference: not death, but a life of sacrifice and service to make the world safer for the helpless and innocent.

Yep. I actually appreciated his warning about people seeing the Inquisition as corrupt. Because, really, what I'd done in order to spring him from jail was circumvent due process in order to save a professed murderer. And it made me feel conflicted, which is good. It's not an easy decision.

 

And I agree that he's deeply flawed even while trying to atone. Really, he doesn't complete his arc before Revelations, because before that he's still running away. But by going back and giving himself up he's finally become the man that he's been trying to be. That's why I felt comfortable with keeping him alive.

 

 Isabela. Morrigan. Fricking "I'm actually a god" Solas.

 

Are they also unforgivable for lying?

No, because Hawke or the Warden or the Inquisitor were not under their command. They were not in a position of power relative to you. That's also why I don't begrudge Blackwall lying to the Inquisitor about his identity. Perhaps Isabela had the responsibility of a friend to another friend to tell Hawke what was up, but neither Morrigan or Solas was obligated to tell you the entire truth. And neither Morrigan or Solas's lies got anybody killed. Isabela's case is a bit more morally questionable, but not to the same degree as Rainier's.

[Korva]

He is not a hero. He needs to kill thousands for that title. Then all is well and acceptable.
/sarcasm off

 

The snark is strong with you, young Padawan. But yeah, I agree.

[MrsHairyMcLummox]

Actually, by every indication Solas is the real deal. If you bring him along during In Hushed Whispers, he's trapped along with the rest of the party, slowly being eaten alive by red lyrium for an entire year before the Inquisitor shows up. He's not invincible. He is in real danger when he goes back and puts himself at Cassandra's mercy.

 

 

But he'd told them they were doing it for their country. They were loyal to Orlais, and they were loyal to their commanding officer. They were fighting for a cause, for their families, and for a man they trusted to know what was right. And he used that trust and that belief to manipulate them into doing his dirty work. That is monstrous behavior, and Blackwall freely admits that it was.

 

 

 

Yup, Iron Bull kills for money, among other things. He also wrangles giants. And every single one of his men and women know this and are also okay with it. He never ever lies to the people who trust him with their lives. That is his guarantee to them, the guarantee that any commander makes to the people under his charge. The guarantee that Rainier broke. That more than anything is why I believe his actions were monstrous.

 

However if you still want to compare him to Bull, both Bull and Krem talk about jobs that they've turned down. And Bull has his own code of ethics. Based on what he says about fighting the Tal'vashoth, who do kill children, Bull would never take on a contract where he'd have to do that. Finding a building full of dead kids and Tamassrans is one of the things that still haunts him to this day.

 

But really, I acknowledge that Rainier did not know the children would be there. He did not set out to kill children (even though he was willing to let it happen). However he very intentionally lied and manipulated people who had put their trust in him, and that is pretty unforgiveable. None of the other companions have done that. 

 

Agree, but we will never know how The Bull would have behaved in a situation like Rainier's, we can just guess.

 

Anyway the tons of lives he saved as 'Blackwall' make him a hero. Many wardens were criminals and it doesn’t matter what they did when they join the Order. The only difference with Blackwall is that we know all the details of what he did while ‘having been a criminal’ is more vague. 

 

Heroes are made, not born, who knows what the 'real' Blackwall did before he became a Grey Warden, perhaps he murdered dozens of people, children included. Does it matter? He became a hero and gained the silver wing of valor for…valor. If he ever met some people's kind of 'justice' instead of being recruited in the wardens the men he saved would be dead as well and the world would lose a potential hero and all the good he could do.

 

Rainier already found his atonement saving many more lives than those he had taken, spending entire years of his life in total self-sacrifice to fight the darkspawn and later to save the farmers in Redcliffe from the demons. I'd say that this makes him a far better man than the ordinary man who doesn't lift a finger to help and just waits for others to fix things.

 

About punishment, I think he's already been punishing himself more than enough by feeling guilty for his actions. He doesn't need us to judge his actions or to decide if he's worthy of redemption or not, he's perfectly capable of taking responsibility for what he had done. He dedicates his life to saving people and when it comes to dealing with his past he does not conscript Mornay as warden Blackwall but faces the consequences of his actions. 

 

I was thinking: what if we interpret Blackwall's lies about his true identity as not wanting to take advantage on the Inquisition, aka the only institution with enough power to take him out of trouble at the moment? 

He brings his burden alone and doesn't ask for protection, he is even angry at you for using the Inquisition's influence to take him out of jail. This makes him an even better man to my eyes. He doesn't want to burden you and the Inquisition with his personal affairs and he actually dislikes when you interfere with his decision to be judged and executed by the law. He wanted to die because he couldn't bear the weight of guilt, and in the years between his crime and his death he did all the good he could saving many more lives than those he had taken.

 

That said, I will keep forgiving him because, unlike many in this thread, I am a fallible, imperfect human being and I like to believe that the day I'll make something wrong people will forgive me. And I'll keep calling Blackwall a hero because, unlike many in this thread, I never lead a life of self-sacrifice nor saved one single human life and so I admire those who do 

[MrsHairyMcLummox]

He is not a hero. He needs to kill thousands for that title. Then all is well and acceptable. And he is a lier because he is not pretty enough, or a god:-)
/sarcasm off

 

 

In other words: if you do something bad, do it big if you want to be a respectable villain

[Archerwarden]

Korva,
point taken on the "message".
See I view his leaving the people of Hinterlands as running away for something better. He doesn't have the discipline and follow thoroughness so he jumps at the chance for another kind of glory. And why didn't he return the treaties? If he wanted to redeem himself there were better ways to do that.
That's another thing he tries deflect what he did by the all encompassing everybody is corrupt. Still he is not accepting what he has done.

He had a choice -non I resign. Go to your superior. Go back to Orlais save that first man who died. Bring the treaties to the Wardens, stay with the Hinterland people and help.


He deserves neither mercy nor my trust. He and he alone is responsible for murdering that family. He and he alone is responsible for lying to his men then abandoning those men and dishonoring his rank. For that he deserves no mercy and will not receive it from me.

And no I reject the notion that we (anybody) would make those same choices.

[Archerwarden]

Agree, but we will never know how The Bull would have behaved in a situation like Rainier's, we can just guess.
 
Anyway the tons of lives he saved as 'Blackwall' make him a hero. Many wardens were criminals and it doesn’t matter what they did when they join the Order. The only difference with Blackwall is that we know all the details of what he did while ‘having been a criminal’ is more vague. 
 
Heroes are made, not born, who knows what the 'real' Blackwall did before he became a Grey Warden, perhaps he murdered dozens of people, children included. Does it matter? He became a hero and gained the silver wing of valor for…valor. If he ever met some people's kind of 'justice' instead of being recruited in the wardens the men he saved would be dead as well and the world would lose a potential hero and all the good he could do.
 
Rainier already found his atonement saving many more lives than those he had taken, spending entire years of his life in total self-sacrifice to fight the darkspawn and later to save the farmers in Redcliffe from the demons. I'd say that this makes him a far better man than the ordinary man who doesn't lift a finger to help and just waits for others to fix things.
 
About punishment, I think he's already been punishing himself more than enough by feeling guilty for his actions. He doesn't need us to judge his actions or to decide if he's worthy of redemption or not, he's perfectly capable of taking responsibility for what he had done. He dedicates his life to saving people and when it comes to dealing with his past he does not conscript Mornay as warden Blackwall but faces the consequences of his actions. 
 

I was thinking: what if we interpret Blackwall's lies about his true identity as not wanting to take advantage on the Inquisition, aka the only institution with enough power to take him out of trouble at the moment? 
He brings his burden alone and doesn't ask for protection, he is even angry at you for using the Inquisition's influence to take him out of jail. This makes him an even better man to my eyes. He doesn't want to burden you and the Inquisition with his personal affairs and he actually dislikes when you interfere with his decision to be judged and executed by the law. He wanted to die because he couldn't bear the weight of guilt, and in the years between his crime and his death he did all the good he could saving many more lives than those he had taken.
 
That said, I will keep forgiving him because, unlike many in this thread, I am a fallible, imperfect human being and I like to believe that the day I'll make something wrong people will forgive me. And I'll keep calling Blackwall a hero because, unlike many in this thread, I never lead a life of self-sacrifice nor saved one single human life and so I admire those who do 

Well, good for you. He will always be a lying, dishonorable coward to me.

[Ryzaki]

"Doing bad things is fine unless you do them to me. Then it's unforgivable. "

 

Murder a farmhouse of people in a delerious rage?  Fine.

 

Be an unremorseful Assassin?  dreamy.

 

Blow up a Church full of innocents?  you'll have fan-girls/boys defending your actions years later

 

 

 

But don't you dare lie to Inquisitor Mary-Sue and then confess when you realize you've gone way too far and need to be honest. 

 

 

 

You say that like it's not a very human response.

 

But anyway Rainer misunderstood or not gets my dislike for being rather uninteresting despite his crime and being self righteous when he of all people has no high horse to be sitting on. Thankfully Bull can call him on this.

[BartDude52]

Some crimes are unforgivable in my eyes, it doesn't matter how much good you do after the act or how much you try to atone - a murderer is still a murderer when all is said and done. Thom Rainier is scum.

[Farangbaa]

Pretty much any Bioware game has featured companions who have done a lot worse than Rainier/Blackwall ... and they have often been among the more popular characters. Some of these "evil" characters were even part-time comic relief. Partly, I suppose, because many people think it's "kewl" to do what you want, take what you want, kill whom you want, and screw what anyone else thinks. What is less "kewl", of course, is when a party member lies to or otherwise turns on the player, because then the player is the "real" victim, and we can't have that.

This needs a shrine.

[MrsHairyMcLummox]

Some crimes are unforgivable in my eyes, it doesn't matter how much good you do after the act or how much you try to atone - a murderer is still a murderer when all is said and done. Thom Rainier is scum.

 

No murderers in your party ? I take it you keep finishing your runs doing all by yourself then xD

[Ryzaki]

Eh my issue with Blackwall is he's too self righteous for someone with such a dodgy past. It's like being lectured about smoking by someone with a lit cigarette in hand.

[ashlover mark 2]

I like Thom, he's an interesting charecter. I always keep him around until the end -- at which point he joins the Wardens.  The Bioware fandom is made up of alot of pissy bitches with hypocritical double standards -- as a fan of Ashley Williams, I've seen it time and time again. I mean look at Solas -- He lied to the Inquisitor and had a big hand in empowering the main Villian but most people around here are like "Oh my god Solas is so awesome, Bioware please give us a Wolf hunt DLC!" It's just the way things are in Fandoms.

[Ieldra]

Eh my issue with Blackwall is he's too self righteous for someone with such a dodgy past. It's like being lectured about smoking by someone with a lit cigarette in hand.

That's about the only thing that bothers me about him, indeed.

 

@all:

His past - he's trying to make up for it. His lying - really, people, *that* is your problem? *scoffs* Gain some perspective, damn it! I don't even mind that much if I romance him. This man has been fighting at your side almost since the Inquisition began. He's always at the frontline, and you've probably saved each other's lives a dozen times, and you come to hate him so easily because he was *lying*? And not even about anything that's personally relevant to you? Pfft.

[Xetykins]

Eh my issue with Blackwall is he's too self righteous for someone with such a dodgy past. It's like being lectured about smoking by someone with a lit cigarette in hand.

Well i say he's an ex smoker lecturing you about lighting a cigaarette :-)

[Scuttlebutt101]

Eh my issue with Blackwall is he's too self righteous for someone with such a dodgy past. It's like being lectured about smoking by someone with a lit cigarette in hand.

In this analogy, Blackwall would be a former smoker. In this case, imo, he would be better suited for lecturing people about smoking than someone who has never lit a cigarette. By this logic, no one has any right to criticize him for lying, because I'm pretty sure everyone here has lied at least once in their lives.

[Archerwarden]

That's about the only thing that bothers me about him, indeed.
 
@all:
His past - he's trying to make up for it. His lying - really, people, *that* is your problem? *scoffs* Gain some perspective, damn it! I don't even mind that much if I romance him. This man has been fighting at your side almost since the Inquisition began. He's always at the frontline, and you've probably saved each other's lives a dozen times, and you come to hate him so easily because he was *lying*? And not even about anything that's personally relevant to you? Pfft.

pfft you can keep your low standards.
Different people - romance away if that is your desire. It bothers me not.

[Ryzaki]

In this analogy, Blackwall would be a former smoker. In this case, imo, he would be better suited for lecturing people about smoking than someone who has never lit a cigarette. By this logic, no one has any right to criticize him for lying, because I'm pretty sure everyone here has lied at least once in their lives.

 

Nope because he's still living a lie when he's harping on the PC. So he's still smoking.

 

There's a difference in lying and being a self righteous ass while lying.

[Xetykins]

Nope because he's still living a lie when he's harping on the PC. So he's still smoking.
 
There's a difference in lying and being a self righteous ass while lying.

Which part exactly is that? I only remembered him being hard on the pc during judgement when i accidentally picked the forces to free himm

[Ryzaki]

Which part exactly is that? I only remembered him being hard on the pc during judgement when i accidentally picked the forces to free himm

 

Eh he's hard no matter who you pick. (Even when it's Josephine). But basically if you get his disapproval high there's some pretty lulzy (I don't like to talk about people behind their backs and you're a tyrant and a self serving thug) remarks. Downright hilarious in hindsight really.

 

Not to mention Bull's banter with him if you leave his men behind to die afterwards. I do love how Bull calls him out on it if he's revealed though.

[MrsHairyMcLummox]

Eh my issue with Blackwall is he's too self righteous for someone with such a dodgy past. It's like being lectured about smoking by someone with a lit cigarette in hand.

 

So if someone has flaws and makes mistakes hasn't the right to have his opinions and ethical code? What should he do? Walk head down, tail between legs, yes boss, you're right boss, everything you say boss... that would be good for your ego I guess but it doesn't work like that, sorry.