1018 réponses à ce sujet

[Hanako Ikezawa]

Merrill: got her entire clan killed

Why was this listed? Her clan dying is optional. I've played DA2 many times yet never have had to kill her clan. 

[Steelcan]

Why was this listed? Her clan dying is optional. I've played DA2 many times yet never have had to kill her clan. 

I mean its less you killing them, more acting in self defense while trying to get away

[TheLastArchivist]

So I've seen a lot of people give flack to Thom Rainier because of what he did to that one family. I don't understand this at all! I know I'll get hate for this, but I see Blackwall as one of the most heroic companions in the game. He killed children, I know. But ever since Blackwall died, he's turned over a new leaf. He's tried to help people, aided those who couldn't defend themselves, and taken blows so others didn't have to. Yeah he kept his true identity and lied to the Inquisition's face, but it was because he was ashamed of what he was. He tried to bury the old Thom Rainier so that he could help people. And when a man was to be hanged so that he could escape freely, Thom intervened with the execution and revealed his true identity, knowing he would be punished greatly, and lose all of the one's who thought highly of him. He was willing to die and lose his reputation just to save one man's life. This is a different Thom than the one from years ago. The old Thom is dead, and a new one has risen to save the people. And each time one of my more stern characters leaves him to rot or exiles him, I'm always tempted to reload a save, but I convince myself to keep true to the current character. In my books, Thom Rainier is worth giving another shot.

Friend, I'll tell you this:

The same people who judge Tom Rainier for running away because he was afraid to die by hanging are the same people who, in every day life, whenever faced with their own mistakes by their parents, school teachers, husbands, wives, asf, claim they are innocent and point the finger at someone else instead.

 

And I'm talking about light stuff, like "who forgot to turn off the light"...

 

Players want characters to be perfect while at the same time not applying that perfect ethical, moral systems on themselves and their horrid flaws as human beings.

 

Learning to forgive a friend's mistakes and to understand why they did it takes a lot of courage and symbolizes a very important step in growing up and accepting the world as it is. Those who forgave Tom's lie must've fully understood his situation and were capable of feeling genuine empathy for a character that did the most human thing to do when faced with his predicament: run away and seek penitence for his sin by helping others with his skills.

 

But I guess it's difficult to feel true empathy while sitting on a couch eating potato chips and masturbating to Blackwall's handsome bearded face. He's just a character on a screen, after all...

[Hanako Ikezawa]

I mean its less you killing them, more acting in self defense while trying to get away

That too. 

[TheLastArchivist]

PS: my decision is and always will be to help him evade prison and send him to the Wardens. A fate he accepts well and with which he quickly comes to terms.

His death services no one. He might as well continue on his path of penitence by helping defeat Corypheus and save the world from utter destruction.

And after that, by helping to protect villagers and other commoners from darkspawn raids.

[Steelcan]

PS: my decision is and always will be to help him evade prison and send him to the Wardens. A fate he accepts well and with which he quickly comes to terms.

His death services no one. He might as well continue on his path of penitence by helping defeat Corypheus and save the world from utter destruction.

And after that, by helping to protect villagers and other commoners from darkspawn raids.

or dying in the Joining, either works

[Hanako Ikezawa]

Friend, I'll tell you this:

The same people who judge Tom Rainier for running away because he was afraid to die by hanging are the same people who, in every day life, whenever faced with their own mistakes by their parents, school teachers, husbands, wives, asf, claim they are innocent and point the finger at someone else instead.

 

And I'm talking about light stuff, like "who forgot to turn off the light"...

 

Players want characters to be perfect while at the same time not applying that perfect ethical, moral systems on themselves and their horrid flaws as human beings.

 

Learning to forgive a friend's mistakes and to understand why they did it takes a lot of courage and symbolizes a very important step in growing up and accepting the world as it is. Those who forgave Tom's lie must've fully understood his situation and were capable of feeling genuine empathy for a character that did the most human thing to do when faced with his predicament: run away and seek penitence for his sin by helping others with his skills.

 

But I guess it's difficult to feel true empathy while sitting on a couch eating potato chips and masturbating to Blackwall's handsome bearded face. He's just a character on a screen, after all...

Way to generalize about and demean people who disagree with you. 

[Br3admax]

Friend, I'll tell you this:

The same people who judge Tom Rainier for running away because he was afraid to die by hanging are the same people who, in every day life, whenever faced with their own mistakes by their parents, school teachers, husbands, wives, asf, claim they are innocent and point the finger at someone else instead.

You're right. Excuse me. I have a call to make. 

 

http://youtu.be/k-ARuoSFflc?t=51s

[ComedicSociopathy]

or dying in the Joining, either works

 

Either he does drinking darkspawn blood or dies in the Deep Roads. No matter what justice is done. It's just a little delayed in the latter case. 

[MiceAndDogs]

The guy tried to make up for what he did. I know what he did was unacceptable, but at least he tried to do good by helping those farmers and do good deeds. He's a changed person. He's not Rainer anymore, he's a better man. He's become someone that has been trying to make up by helping the Inquisition and helping the weak. In the end, I still gave him to the Wardens, so that he could do more good. And being a warden isn't exactly an easy life, but it's not exactly a hard one for someone like the new Blacwall to live. He's accepted any disgust people have towards him, and if he dies, at least he died doing good. Also, we're calling each other disgusting now? Just because I said that Thom preferred his title than the children doesn't make me a bad person, I'm just saying what old Thom would have acted like. Remember, this was a person that kills people for gold, so I wouldn't be surprised if someone like him would have chosen his position than the lives of others...

[Bugsie]

The only losers are the people who don't particularly care about justice or integrity or accountability.

I agree with you up until this last point. The notion of justice and how we as individuals react to it is not clear cut in Thedas any more than the real world. Your sentence pretty much states that the approach to ethical dilemmas is (or should be I hope you're not simply moralising here...) the same for everyone and by not accepting a certain moral stance in regard to Rainiers crime (the eye for an eye kind) that they’re completely ignoring the issue of justice, that they don't care about integrity or that they are dismissing the idea of being the head of an organisation requires a degree of accountability. It ignores the fact that people actually put a great deal of faith in restorative justice 'making matters right' over more punitive forms.

 

Alternatively the degree of moral/ethical dilemma presented really isn't meaty enough for people to connect with on level that would be equal to how they would view/react in the real world?

[VoidOfOne]

This has been a rather interesting conversation, to say the least.

 

It does seem to come down to whether you take the side of Cassandra, who sees the wrong that Ranier did and merely judge him by his faults and his sins, or the side of Sera and Cole, who see the good that Ranier is doing to make up for his sins.

 

It makes me wonder if Darth Vader would have been as popular a figure if he lived after the the second Death Star's destruction and devoted the rest of his life to the light side of the force over many years. I'm guessing no.

 

And I free Blackwall and free him. At least he's trying, That's more than most.

[Hanako Ikezawa]

It makes me wonder if Darth Vader would have been as popular a figure if he lived after the the second Death Star's destruction and devoted the rest of his life to the light side of the force over many years. I'm guessing no.

Oh, without a doubt the galaxy wouldn't have forgiven Vader. He was responsible for the deaths of millions or even billions of people. 

[AtreiyaN7]

I don't think Blackwall is a hero. He has pretensions of being one, but then he never really understood the Wardens.

 

Rather than any personal animostiy towards him, I just... don't see much point in rescuing him from justice that he agrees is deserved. Other than the typical Bioware 'there's more content to enjoy if you don't kill off companions, ******,' sort of thing, which is purely selfish metagaming.

 

It's not like a death sentence is undeserved for his crimes. It's not a politically machinated show trial, it's not a crime just because it was against a noble family, there was no good excuse for what he did and was responsible for at any stage in the process. It was just a very serious crime, of the sort that normally would carry death. Him running away from it for so long doesn't make it less of a crime.

 

That he feels his punishment is deserved? That's just dandy, but not a reason not to punish. A society with a working sense of justice should appreciate that even criminals can accept the legitimacy of their punishments.

 

Blackwall gets what he deserves, and wants. Society gets deserved justice for a crime long evaded. The Inquisition doesn't besmirch itself more than it needs to with nepotism and personal biases in the justice system. The only losers are the people who don't particularly care about justice or integrity or accountability.

 

Oh, really? So people who don't feel that death sentences aren't always the way to go for every crime and who take extenuating circumstance into account are losers or lack integrity? People who feel that mercy can be shown under certain circumstances are wrong? As the Inquisitor, everyone in the game is de facto treating your Inquisitor as the law, and they expect you to provide "justice" on any number of matters because the entire world has been thrown into chaos. Ultimately, it's really your will and your sense of justice that matters - not what "society" demands (and certainly not what the Chantry demands since they've done an incredibly poor job of managing things).

 

I'd like to know which society's standards of justice you would be applying in the first place. Would those be Orlesian standards of justice since the crime (which was the result of a noble looking for a hired gun because he wanted to win an advantage in the Game) took place on Orlesian soil? Let's see...as I recall, it's perfectly permissible for chevaliers to kill elves whenever the heck they feel like it as a "graduation" rite. Orlais has a society that permits the murder of innocents for no good reason other than "eh, they're elves who are subhuman, so they don't matter."

 

If it were actually a just society with the same standards that applied to everyone, then the argument for letting the justice system take its course might be valid. However, if the society in question is corrupt at its core and has different laws, rights, and privileges (including allowing murder on a daily basis without even blinking since they consider elves worthless), then I won't be applying their standards of "justice" when rendering a judgment.

 

I'll stick to my own standards of justice and what I consider right - even if what I consider right doesn't conform to the standards of those who believe in taking an eye for an eye or by repaying a death (or deaths) with more pointless death.

[Bugsie]

It makes me wonder if Darth Vader would have been as popular a figure if he lived after the the second Death Star's destruction and devoted the rest of his life to the light side of the force over many years. I'm guessing no.

Now you got me thinking about all those poor innocent contractors working on the construction of the second Death Star.  They had families too! Evil rebel scum!

[Steelcan]

Now you got me thinking about all those poor innocent contractors working on the construction of the second Death Star.  They had families too! Evil rebel scum!

[Hanako Ikezawa]

Now you got me thinking about all those poor innocent contractors working on the construction of the second Death Star.  They had families too! Evil rebel scum!

If you read the Expanded Universe, the Rebel Alliance wasn't nearly as much the white knights the movie trilogy painted them as. 

[Steelcan]

If you read the Expanded Universe, the Rebel Alliance wasn't nearly as much the white knights the movie trilogy painted them as. 

non-canon my ass

[AtreiyaN7]

Hmm, I guess nothing brings people together like a Death Star at the very least.

[Bugsie]

OMG what if it was 'take your kids to work day' when the Death Star exploded???

[Hanako Ikezawa]

OMG what if it was 'take your kids to work day' when the Death Star exploded???

Now I have to post this.

[Abyss108]

So does everyone who frees Blackwall want the chance to free all the other people you have to judge? All the NPCs to you fight? Corypheus? 

 

Why does Blackwall deserve to atone but not the others? Any of those other people could regret what they did given time like what Blackwall got. 

[LostInReverie19]

"Doing bad things is fine unless you do them to me. Then it's unforgivable. "

 

Murder a farmhouse of people in a delerious rage?  Fine.

 

Be an unremorseful Assassin?  dreamy.

 

Blow up a Church full of innocents?  you'll have fan-girls/boys defending your actions years later

 

 

 

But don't you dare lie to Inquisitor Mary-Sue and then confess when you realize you've gone way too far and need to be honest. 

 

 

 

This person speaks truth.  

[ComedicSociopathy]

So does everyone who frees Blackwall want the chance to free all the other people you have to judge? All the NPCs to you fight? Corypheus? 

 

Why does Blackwall deserve to atone but not the others? Any of those other people could regret what they did given time like what Blackwall got. 

 

They weren't fighting side by side with me for three quarters of the game. 

[Abyss108]

They weren't fighting side by side with me for three quarters of the game. 

 

So justice is different because you know the person? Or is it different because he was doing good during the game? Because he only got the chance to do either of those things because he didn't face justice after his crime like all the other characters had to. If they had the chance to escape, they could have turned out like Blackwall.