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So, the OGB was nothing?


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#226
Aren

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Putting aside Morrigan for a moment, it's also about not risking the lives of everyone in Denerim, if not beyond, by taking a risk on a completely out of left field, untested and undiscussed modification to what has worked to stop every other Blight in its tracks.

 

This is, by the way, a modification suggested by the same woman who wants you to murder her mother because she's not smart enough to properly interpret a stolen book.  It's a wonder she managed to get the DR right at all.  Flemeth must have used small words for that part.

TK 514 sorry if i have used your own words of another topics for my message but yours was a convincing argument made by using marketing logic.



#227
Secret Rare

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Bioware choices aren't mean to radically alter worldstates. They're meant to be RP options.

 

The DR is all about trusting Morrigan, and whether or not you're tempted by self-preservation, glory, or the (IMO insane) GW self-sacrifice ideals. 

 Warden can easily bypass the DR and survive and gain glory as well without any further complication.


#228
LOLandStuff

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Duncan's job as a Grey Warden was to kill darkspawn, not sit around and wait for the Archdemon to show up. And nobody believed it was a true Blight anyway, not until much latter when they started advancing and things really went downhill after Ostagar. And who would've believed Duncan anyway?

"Oh, yeah, it's defenitly a Blight. I had a bad dream last night."

"Yep, can confirm. Had the same dream."

 

Grey Wardens are neutral, they answer to no one.

 

And no, Loghain didn't save your life, he wanted to atone for what he's done. In the end, he died a hero.



#229
Aren

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Duncan's job as a Grey Warden was to kill darkspawn

GW most important job is to kill archdemon , everyone can kill common darkspawn, Riordan has not wasted his time for common Darkspawn, Duncan was there on the battlefield to appease  Cailan.



#230
LOLandStuff

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GW most important job is to kill archdemon , everyone can kill common darkspawn, Riordan has not wasted his time for common Darkspawn, Duncan was there on the battlefield to appease  Cailan.

 

Grey Warden stuff in general when there's no Blight.

 

Duncan's job as a Grey Warden was to kill darkspawn, not sit around and wait for the Archdemon to show up.

 

Read the whole thing.

 

They won't just sit around letting darkspawn rampaging through the countryside because there's no Archdemon.


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#231
TK514

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GW most important job is to kill archdemon , everyone can kill common darkspawn, Riordan has not wasted his time for common Darkspawn, Duncan was there on the battlefield to appease  Cailan.

 

Actually, we saw quite clearly how well normal troops fare against darkspawn before the battle of Ostagar.  You know, that guy in the makeshift infirmary going insane from the pain of the taint poisoning his blood.  And the mabari you have to try to find a cure for because it bit some darkspawn and was, again, poisoned.

 

Certainly in a Blight only the Wardens can put the Archdemon down for good, but that hardly makes it their only, or even number one, priority in any given battle.  They are Thedas' elite Anti-Darkspawn force.  ALL darkspawn.


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#232
In Exile

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Actually, we saw quite clearly how well normal troops fare against darkspawn before the battle of Ostagar.  You know, that guy in the makeshift infirmary going insane from the pain of the taint poisoning his blood.  And the mabari you have to try to find a cure for because it bit some darkspawn and was, again, poisoned.
 
Certainly in a Blight only the Wardens can put the Archdemon down for good, but that hardly makes it their only, or even number one, priority in any given battle.  They are Thedas' elite Anti-Darkspawn force.  ALL darkspawn.


That's not true. We know from Riordan that ancient Tevinter succeeded in killing Dumant multiple times with conventional forces. Ostagar was a **** up on a lot of levels but the flaw in facing dark spawn is not conventional non GW military. Remember, the wardens are small force. They're not meant to win a stand up fight with darkspawn. That honour goes to the meat shield non Ga forces.

The First Blight - and really every blight thereafter, including DAO where you win at Denerim with 3 GWs (!!!!) - proves that the order itself had no value beyond being an AD killing receptacle.
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#233
TK514

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That's not true. We know from Riordan that ancient Tevinter succeeded in killing Dumant multiple times with conventional forces. Ostagar was a **** up on a lot of levels but the flaw in facing dark spawn is not conventional non GW military. Remember, the wardens are small force. They're not meant to win a stand up fight with darkspawn. That honour goes to the meat shield non Ga forces.

The First Blight - and really every blight thereafter, including DAO where you win at Denerim with 3 GWs (!!!!) - proves that the order itself had no value beyond being an AD killing receptacle.

 

Sure, they can win, but tons of them die needlessly due to exposure.  This isn't up for debate.  The Grew Wardens exist to kill Darkspawn and stop Blights, full stop.



#234
In Exile

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Sure, they can win, but tons of them die needlessly due to exposure.  This isn't up for debate.  The Grew Wardens exist to kill Darkspawn and stop Blights, full stop.

 

Again, Grey Wardens have never had the numbers to be an actual army comparable to, say, even Ferelden (not to mention Orlais). We're looking at, what, probably 5000 Wardens across Southern Thedas? 



#235
robertthebard

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Actually, we saw quite clearly how well normal troops fare against darkspawn before the battle of Ostagar.  You know, that guy in the makeshift infirmary going insane from the pain of the taint poisoning his blood.  And the mabari you have to try to find a cure for because it bit some darkspawn and was, again, poisoned.
 
Certainly in a Blight only the Wardens can put the Archdemon down for good, but that hardly makes it their only, or even number one, priority in any given battle.  They are Thedas' elite Anti-Darkspawn force.  ALL darkspawn.


I have to wonder why there's even a Thedas then, since during the century or so of the first Blight, there were no Wardens. We see an infirmary with a few patients, and one dog. What about all the dogs hangin' out with the Ash Warriors, or the Ash Warriors, or the army that actually takes the field at Ostagar? Sure there are some Wardens in the mix, but, the vast majority of them were regular soldiers.

#236
Fast Jimmy

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I have to wonder why there's even a Thedas then, since during the century or so of the first Blight, there were no Wardens. We see an infirmary with a few patients, and one dog. What about all the dogs hangin' out with the Ash Warriors, or the Ash Warriors, or the army that actually takes the field at Ostagar? Sure there are some Wardens in the mix, but, the vast majority of them were regular soldiers.


The Tevinter Imperium was an unstoppable empire at that point, capable of both insanely huge armies as well as devastatingly powerful magic. They had just gotten done wiping the elves, who were defending home territory and wielding more powerful magic (initially), off the bottom of their boots when the First Blight happened. This was the most powerful military force in the history of Thedas, as far as we know. Then it spent almost two centuries contending with a Blight it could not defeat, despite slaying the Archdemon numerous times. It wasn't long after this that Andraste's rebellion began tumbling the empire. And let's also not forget the power of the Dwarven empire, who was smashed even more terribly (although the damage was truly done more when the Darkspawn fled underground following Dumat's demise, not during the war itself).

The scene at Ostagar of soldiers dead and dying from taint is not diminished by the First Blight... it is a testament to just how powerful Tevinter really was, in terms of sheer manpower alone, to stand up to such a force without the trump card of the Wardens. If not for Tevinter, the world would likely not have survived the First Blight.

Then again, if not for the Seven Magisters, there wouldn't be a Blight in the first place, ostensibly.

#237
Call Me Jord

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The Tevinter Imperium was an unstoppable empire at that point, capable of both insanely huge armies as well as devastatingly powerful magic. They had just gotten done wiping the elves, who were defending home territory and wielding more powerful magic (initially), off the bottom of their boots when the First Blight happened. 

 

Whoa whoa whoa, I'm going to need clarification here, 

 

Spoiler tagged due to it being part of Mythal's Temple

 

Spoiler



#238
robertthebard

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The Tevinter Imperium was an unstoppable empire at that point, capable of both insanely huge armies as well as devastatingly powerful magic. They had just gotten done wiping the elves, who were defending home territory and wielding more powerful magic (initially), off the bottom of their boots when the First Blight happened. This was the most powerful military force in the history of Thedas, as far as we know. Then it spent almost two centuries contending with a Blight it could not defeat, despite slaying the Archdemon numerous times. It wasn't long after this that Andraste's rebellion began tumbling the empire. And let's also not forget the power of the Dwarven empire, who was smashed even more terribly (although the damage was truly done more when the Darkspawn fled underground following Dumat's demise, not during the war itself).


I'm just going to point out here that Tevinter's reign was stopped by a bunch of slaves and the Avvar. Apparently, they weren't an "unstoppable empire".

The scene at Ostagar of soldiers dead and dying from taint is not diminished by the First Blight... it is a testament to just how powerful Tevinter really was, in terms of sheer manpower alone, to stand up to such a force without the trump card of the Wardens. If not for Tevinter, the world would likely not have survived the First Blight.

Then again, if not for the Seven Magisters, there wouldn't be a Blight in the first place, ostensibly.


The scene at Ostagar demonstrates one thing: The Blight is not as Pandemic(y) as people like to believe. The fact that at the beginning of Origins we're not all Tevinter demonstrates that while a Blight is devastating, there are areas in Thedas that haven't recovered from the first one, people are capable of fighting it w/out the Wardens, they just can't end it w/out the Wardens, and since you bring up the dog, it also seems like it's infection can be cured, potentially, in it's early stages, otherwise we wouldn't be finding a flower to save the dog.

#239
Aren

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Actually, we saw quite clearly how well normal troops fare against darkspawn before the battle of Ostagar.  You know, that guy in the makeshift infirmary going insane from the pain of the taint poisoning his blood.  And the mabari you have to try to find a cure for because it bit some darkspawn and was, again, poisoned.

 

Certainly in a Blight only the Wardens can put the Archdemon down for good, but that hardly makes it their only, or even number one, priority in any given battle.  They are Thedas' elite Anti-Darkspawn force.  ALL darkspawn.

During a blight  when you have only 5-6 wardens is really shortsighted to  risk wardens for common darkspawn

 The Grew Wardens exist to stop Blights everyone can kill darkspawn.



#240
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That's not true. We know from Riordan that ancient Tevinter succeeded in killing Dumant multiple times with conventional forces. Ostagar was a **** up on a lot of levels but the flaw in facing dark spawn is not conventional non GW military. Remember, the wardens are small force. They're not meant to win a stand up fight with darkspawn. That honour goes to the meat shield non Ga forces.

The First Blight - and really every blight thereafter, including DAO where you win at Denerim with 3 GWs (!!!!) - proves that the order itself had no value beyond being an AD killing receptacle.

Perfect!!! GW are there to kill Archdemon, being more effective against others darkspawn is an added benefit but not the reason of why they go through the joining, and as GW Commander Duncan is really mad to put in danger the few Grey Wardens for common Darkspawn.



#241
Fast Jimmy

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I'm just going to point out here that Tevinter's reign was stopped by a bunch of slaves and the Avvar. Apparently, they weren't an "unstoppable empire".

Did you not read my post? The First Blight RAVAGED Tevinter, such that a handful of peasants with a sominari and a band of elves were able to take it down. This isn't weakness by Tevinter - that it even stood at all after close to two hundred years of war, scourge and blighted landscape is a testament to how powerful it once was.

The scene at Ostagar demonstrates one thing: The Blight is not as Pandemic(y) as people like to believe. The fact that at the beginning of Origins we're not all Tevinter demonstrates that while a Blight is devastating, there are areas in Thedas that haven't recovered from the first one, people are capable of fighting it w/out the Wardens, they just can't end it w/out the Wardens, and since you bring up the dog, it also seems like it's infection can be cured, potentially, in it's early stages, otherwise we wouldn't be finding a flower to save the dog.

I didn't actually bring up the mabari, but I do find it odd that human taint is incurable while dog taint can be cleared out with a common flower. I'd say it might have to do with the corruption drawing it's power from the Fade, which thinking beings have closer connection to than animals, but it would be pure speculation.

Regardless, we are also forgetting the damage done the Imperium's authority by the very nature of the Blight itself - Dumat, their chief God, was now their destroyer. This fact alone undermined both legitimacy of the empire as well as faith in the Old Gods themselves. That the land did not dissolve into pure chaos and lack of any sort of government is rather telling in how powerful their rule of law was. It certainly doesn't hurt when said rule of law can be enforced by summoning demons to rip the flesh off of potential usurpers...

#242
Fast Jimmy

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Perfect!!! GW are there to kill Archdemon, being more effective against others darkspawn is an added benefit but not the reason of why they go through the joining, and as GW Commander Duncan is really mad to put in danger the few Grey Wardens for common Darkspawn.

You are forgetting history and politics. The Grey Wardens were cast out of Ferelden for centuries and, relatively speaking, were new to the scene again. Duncan was trying to placate the throne and keep the graces of King Maric. After all, the Darkspawn raids were on the far southern border of his lands, more of a problem for the Korcari than for Ferelden. Without a standing GW army, they needed the king to even have a shot at taking down the Archdemon.

If keeping that army (let alone keeping the GW in Ferelden at all) meant risking Grey Wardens fighting Darkspawn in battle, then it is a no-brainer... have the awards a fight against the Darkspawn. Just make sure you have sufficient forces to flank their main position and the victory, at least for the day, was assured...

There was a very low possibility that all the Wardens would have died if not for the betrayal by Loghain.

#243
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Did you not read my post? The First Blight RAVAGED Tevinter, such that a handful of peasants with a sominari and a band of elves were able to take it down. This isn't weakness by Tevinter - that it even stood at all after close to two hundred years of war, scourge and blighted landscape is a testament to how powerful it once was.

I didn't actually bring up the mabari, but I do find it odd that human taint is incurable while dog taint can be cleared out with a common flower. I'd say it might have to do with the corruption drawing it's power from the Fade, which thinking beings have closer connection to than animals, but it would be pure speculation.

Regardless, we are also forgetting the damage done the Imperium's authority by the very nature of the Blight itself - Dumat, their chief God, was now their destroyer. This fact alone undermined both legitimacy of the empire as well as faith in the Old Gods themselves. That the land did not dissolve into pure chaos and lack of any sort of government is rather telling in how powerful their rule of law was. It certainly doesn't hurt when said rule of law can be enforced by summoning demons to rip the flesh off of potential usurpers...


I dont understand your post. It is accounting for the history. The Tevinters killed Dumat multiple times over a 200 year period and STILL their society had not collapsed. Ferelden was halfway to bring a ruined husk of a country in about one. Had the blight raged for two years with no Grey Wardens there wouldn't have been a living soul left in that country.

The poster suggested the Grey Wardens mattered in a conventional fight. Tevinter proves they don't. DAO proves they don't. All GWs matter as is as an AD killing receptacle.

#244
Fast Jimmy

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I dont understand your post. It is accounting for the history. The Tevinters killed Dumat multiple times over a 200 year period and STILL their society had not collapsed. Ferelden was halfway to bring a ruined husk of a country in about one. Had the blight raged for two years with no Grey Wardens there wouldn't have been a living soul left in that country.

The poster suggested the Grey Wardens mattered in a conventional fight. Tevinter proves they don't. DAO proves they don't. All GWs matter as is as an AD killing receptacle.

I agree... the GWs are a one-trick pony. The poster I quoted said that the fact that the First Blight lasted for near two centuries is proof that the Blight and Taint are, roughly speaking, not all that bad. And that what was seen in Ostagar was over-inflated, that the Taint was not a deadly disease, since Tevinter withstood it for scores of years.

My counter to that was yes, the Taint IS that deadly, the Darkspawn ARE that dangerous and the Blight DOES twist the landscape so that creatures and life within either die or are transformed into dangerous monstrosities. It's just that Tevinter was so powerful, they were able to endure this for generations and still have their empire intact, albeit a husk of what it once was.
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#245
Beomer

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The poster suggested the Grey Wardens mattered in a conventional fight. Tevinter proves they don't. DAO proves they don't. All GWs matter as is as an AD killing receptacle.

 

It's not as simple as that IMO. Dumat might have been killed many times over by ordinary armies, although it is debatable whether the armies of Tevinter at the height of their power were ordinary at all.

The point is that GWs are crack troops. They are like medieval tier 1 troops against Darkspawn. Are they absolutely required to fight Darkspawn? No. The absolute part is only for the Archdemon. But if a considerable number of them are present they would do the job a lot more efficiently and with far fewer casualties on their side. Furthermore the mere presence of such troops improves morale and evokes a sense of confidence in the common rank and file.



#246
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 Are they absolutely required to fight Darkspawn? No. The absolute part is only for the Archdemon. But if a considerable number of them are present ..

Which is why i consider Duncan a true failure as a GW commander,there is no considerable number of GW in Ferelden and he use all of them at Ostagar in the front Line...... madness...



#247
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It's not as simple as that IMO. Dumat might have been killed many times over by ordinary armies, although it is debatable whether the armies of Tevinter at the height of their power were ordinary at all.
The point is that GWs are crack troops. They are like medieval tier 1 troops against Darkspawn. Are they absolutely required to fight Darkspawn? No. The absolute part is only for the Archdemon. But if a considerable number of them are present they would do the job a lot more efficiently and with far fewer casualties on their side. Furthermore the mere presence of such troops improves morale and evokes a sense of confidence in the common rank and file.


If we're going to be mildy realistic about military tactics for a moment (which is probably a mistake since Bioware is never realistic) the Wardens don't make sense as troops in a conventional war. They aren't knights for the most part - lore wise they're not supposed to fight on horseback like chevalier.

They're footsoldiers, archers and mages. That's not really a shock drop, and their numbers are too small to make sense in a pitched battle as a unit. This is what makes Duncan so terrible at his job.

#248
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If we're going to be mildy realistic about military tactics for a moment (which is probably a mistake since Bioware is never realistic) the Wardens don't make sense as troops in a conventional war. They aren't knights for the most part - lore wise they're not supposed to fight on horseback like chevalier.

They're footsoldiers, archers and mages. That's not really a shock drop, and their numbers are too small to make sense in a pitched battle as a unit. This is what makes Duncan so terrible at his job.


Well, let's not be too uncharitable, because there are a number of assumptions here that might not be right.

For one thing, knights - and "well-armed, well-trained aristocratic warriors" generally - did often fight as heavy infantry quite consistently throughout the classical and medieval periods, from the thorakitai of the Successor armies straight through Martel's iron wall at Poitiers to the English men-at-arms of Agincourt. These heavy formations were used quite profitably in defensive roles and offensive roles alike; they could hold a line, engage enemy infantry on even terms, and spearhead an assault - in fact, they often made excellent shock troops precisely because of their skill and survivability, and because (unlike heavy cavalry) heavy infantry could successfully engage formed enemy infantry.

For another thing, we don't really know how the Wardens at Ostagar were armed and armored anyway; all we know about them is that compared to the rest of the army they were described as being skilled warriors generally, and extremely skilled at killing darkspawn specifically.

We can't really rely on visual details from the game to rule anything out, because - presumably due to the limitations of the games' cinematics - mages were never shown fighting at Ostagar (even though we know that they were there) and cavalry of any kind was never shown until Inquisition (and really, not even then, because nobody fights from horseback in the Breach crisis), so we can't really say positively or negatively what battlefield role the Wardens were best suited to...and that's apart from all the other random silliness in all the depictions of mass warfare in the DA games that come from the limitations of the animation technology, the gameplay mechanics that emphasize small-unit engagements, and the Hollywoodified cinematics generally.

I agree that there's a disjoint between "stuff that can be done against darkspawn without Wardens" and "ostensible tactical value of Warden forces against darkspawn" in the games, but I think that's probably a result of other issues like "typical fantasy-fiction military writing". A two-hundred-year war against an infinite enemy that destroys crops and sickens the earth purely by being there is kind of silly on the face of it anyway, so drawing serious military conclusions from it is a fool's errand. But the mere fact that the Vints could hold their own against the spawn doesn't mean that the Wardens weren't better at it than they were - it just means that there were lots of other factors helping the Vints along (like massed battlemages, a world-spanning empire, and immense wealth). A comparison: the Entente powers' eventual victory in the First World War was achieved in spite of poor artillery fire tactics, lousy tactical organization, and lackluster operational sequencing, but the Entente powers possessed enough other advantages to bring the war successfully to a close. But, had their armies employed Bruchmüller tactics or the Pulkowski method, or had their armies pursued a more unified strategy and sequenced operations properly, they probably could've won the war faster, and with fewer casualties.

In another, more perilous scenario, the tactical advantage of possessing Wardens against darkspawn - supposing, again, that one actually exists - might be one of the few advantages left to a weaker Thedas facing a stronger foe than did classical Tevinter.

From a strategic standpoint, it's well and good to suggest that Wardens ought to be kept out of the fighting until an Archdemon appears, so that they can be hurled at it en masse in a berserk effort to kill it at all costs. But then the doubts start creeping in. If Warden forces provide important tactical benefits, and if the armies of civilized Thedas can't defeat darkspawn forces without those tactical benefits, you run into a fairly serious problem. What if you can't catch the Archdemon? What if repeated darkspawn tactical successes lead to a point where even when you finally know where the Archdemon is, you can't get the Wardens to it because the darkspawn horde is simply too strong, and Thedas is simply too weak?

It's similar to a classic dilemma in military thought: when to commit reserve forces to battle. Do you throw most of them in early to try to keep control of the flow of the situation, or do you keep them in hand until you spot the decisive moment? Both are highly contextual options. Spending reserves like penny-packets where they are unable to mass for the decisive moment has sometimes failed quite dramatically; other times, though, keeping the reserve out of battle until the decisive moment is futile because there never really is a decisive moment, and the rest of the army is ground down until all the reserve can do is cover the inevitable retreat. If you know which of the two is better to the degree that you can declare so confidently what the Wardens should always do, I imagine Carlisle, Sandhurst, or the École de guerre would love to have you, because you've solved military theory.

More importantly, though, there's the point that in-universe, basically all direct depictions of Wardens show them to be tactically valuable against darkspawn, or at least expected to be tactically valuable in that role by everybody else. That's the role that they played in Last Flight, and it's the role that the conscripted Wardens play in Inquisition. Cullen, the closest thing to a military authority in any of the three games, directly states that he defers to Warden judgment on the topic of killing darkspawn, and says that that's what they're best at. While Blackwall was still thought of as a Warden, the Herald did the same thing. I don't think that there's any serious question that, at least for now, the writers intend for us to view Wardens as being better at fighting darkspawn than anybody else. Any other view would rely on a fairly hefty dose of error theory, and therefore headcanon.

Naturally, since this is a fictional enterprise, the writers reserve the right to change this depiction at any time. :P
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#249
RevilFox

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Oh good grief. Morrigan did not rape Alistair. Just no.

 

Depending on the choices you make throughout the game, Alister is absolutely raped. But, while it's Morrigan that has the sex with him, it's really the Warden that's guilty of it.

 



#250
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1)For another thing, we don't really know how the Wardens at Ostagar were armed and armored anyway; all we know about them is that compared to the rest of the army they were described as being skilled warriors generally, and extremely skilled at killing darkspawn specifically.







2)From a strategic standpoint, it's well and good to suggest that Wardens ought to be kept out of the fighting until an Archdemon appears, so that they can be hurled at it en masse in a berserk effort to kill it at all costs. But then the doubts start creeping in. If Warden forces provide important tactical benefits, and if the armies of civilized Thedas can't defeat darkspawn forces without those tactical benefits, you run into a fairly serious problem. What if you can't catch the Archdemon? What if repeated darkspawn tactical successes lead to a point where even when you finally know where the Archdemon is, you can't get the Wardens to it because the darkspawn horde is simply too strong, and Thedas is simply too weak?
 

1) Actually if you pick the Noble Dwarf Origin you will be able to see the others GW that are with Duncan,one is a rouge and if i remember one of them is a mage, and maybe there are another one, they are clearly awfully equipped and they do not seem to posses any valuable infantry skill..

Still Duncan is not a General and by denyng to Loghain as well as Alistair and The Warden the secret of the US he have  not help his own cause,and he have not helped Loghain in seeing the values of the GW.

 

2) With less than 10 GW you cannot build an army of GW so clearly the best solution is to concentrate the efforts only to the archedemon and use the senior GW to listen his plans.

 

Depending on the choices you make throughout the game, Alister is absolutely raped. But, while it's Morrigan that has the sex with him, it's really the Warden that's guilty of it.

 

 

I honestly don't care Alistair is an adult and the Warden like Pilate washes his/her hands if he do not wish to do such a thing then he can simply refuse,which i believe is the most realistic outcome (no matter on how much you are friend or lover,he have already prove that he will not stand with you on certain circumstances) 
however he can be persuaded otherwise this will not be a RP game but the whole thing is not realistic with Alistair,he hate loghain as much as he wont the archdemon dead due to his GW idealistic view
Loghain's situation is more realistic, he hate the GW and at the same time is bound to obey.
But for my personal warden noone of this  matter,because if i wish to perform the DR i do not have to ask something to anyone the advantage of the gender is very clear  here.