411 réponses à ce sujet

[robertthebard]

It wasn't nothing. It was something; it was a throwaway plot element Bioware stopped caring about back around late 2010, about the same time they stopped caring about their franchise as a whole.

If it's a throw away plot element, it was written as such. But Rob, that can't be right, can it??? Yes, it can, since it was not a mandatory thing, it was destined for just what it got. What's more amazing to me are the people that believe it should be canon for everyone despite all the variations on a theme for an ending we got.

Loghain and Alistair dead, Warden survives, this works out a couple of ways, actually, one can spare Loghain and let Alistair be executed, kill Loghain with a romanced Alistair, and he steals your death blow.

Loghain dead, Alistair a drunk, Warden survives.

Loghain dead, Alistair King. Do I need to keep going? None of these have anything to do with the DR, which is one choice with a couple of different cutscenes, depending on who's doing the deed.

Some opted out because they like Loghain, and wanted to let him redeem himself.

Some opted out because they wanted to let Alistair do it, and some didn't get that choice, see a romanced Alistair.

Some opted out to make the US. So what posters like this one really means is that everyone that didn't do the DR did it wrong. Sorry you feel that way, old man(props if you know where that quote comes from), but those of us that opted out for any of these reasons, or any of the reasons I didn't bother to list, did it right, for their game.

[Statare]

Really, I don't get how Kieran losing his OGS was "nothing."

 

A mortal child with the soul of a dragon/god has been done to death in fantasy. There is only so much Fus Ro Dah Draconic Hero of Incredibleness before that trope becomes had.

 

Personally, the possibility of a scheming, immortal, possibly god having the power of another possible god thing is more interesting than the Destined Hero of Godly Fortune.

 

Edit: Also, getting to see Morrigan realize how little she actually knows was definitely worth the OGB plot line, no matter what happened to Kieran. I like Morrigan, but that was definitely one of the best scenes in DA to date.

[evelynwarden]

Kieran was destined for great things. Morrigan mentions the fear that Flemeth has always and is still toying with her, testing her, and she never knows if she is passing the tests. Couldn't it be considered that Kieran, his very existence as a child of the blight, with the soul of an old God, served a great purpose in harboring the soul until it was retrieved by Flemeth and possibly Fen'harel in the end? Kieran doesn't have to be center stage to be that much. For all intents and purposes, he seems like a normal little boy with studies and innocence. The voices make him odd, but he's still a boy.

Morrigan got her son. What that means in consequences is yet to be told. But since Mythal is the frightening motherly figure in Elvhen lore.... It makes sense that it happened that way. If he couldnt be more, I at least appreciate what he amounted to be.

[Arcling]

They had to take both choices into account, whether there is old god baby or not, story has to make sense. Perhaps there will be some minor twist in certain situation, depending if Solas/Flemeth has this soul or not.

[DarkKnightHolmes]

Thinking ahead for story isn't Biowares strong point.

[Ieldra]

Thinking ahead for story isn't Biowares strong point.

Well, yes, but if they didn't think there might be a sequel when they made DAO - which they said but which I'm not sure I believe - they can be excused in this case. Unlike, say, the consequences of not thinking ahead in ME.

 

Kieran's status as an "old god child" being basically irrelevant, yeah, that's disappointing, but I expected worse. So...it's ok.

[Aren]

If by "worse" you mean some negative or good (but interesting) outcome ,i would have gladly looked at the choice with more interest ,but a nullification,no matter how well executed is even worse,and i sincerely believe that this is also the fate of the well of Sorrow of DAI.

[Ieldra]

If by "worse" you mean some negative or good (but interesting) outcome ,i would have gladly looked at the choice with more interest ,but a nullification,no matter how well executed is even worse,and i sincerely believe that this is also the fate of the well of Sorrow of DAI.

I've said before: Make it good, that's a slap in the face and the message "you chose poorly" to those who did the US in DAO. Make it bad, and it's a slap in the face and the message "you chose poorly" to those who did the DR. They'd have ended up pissing off many players in either case. Personally, I *really* can't stand the trope "buy the good outcome with a heroic sacrifice" any more, and that's how things would've ended up if not nullified since as I said, Bioware now usually resolves such conflicts in a conformist way. So that would've been worse.

 

They might have done something neutral-ish but interesting, but even that may have been too much for the doctrine of mainstream conformism that appears to dominate in Bioware's storytelling these days. Not that I can blame them all that much for being careful after the disastrous response to ME3's ending, but that doesn't make the result any better.

[robertthebard]

If by "worse" you mean some negative or good (but interesting) outcome ,i would have gladly looked at the choice with more interest ,but a nullification,no matter how well executed is even worse,and i sincerely believe that this is also the fate of the well of Sorrow of DAI.

Except that, no matter what, someone has to use the Well, unlike the DR where it's on, or off. For a DA 4 type setting, if Morrigan drank, Morrigan shows up, if the Inquisitor, and they're still alive, which, if I were writing, they likely wouldn't be, then they show up in the same "advisor" capacity that Morrigan had in DA I, assuming the Well ties into that story at all, anyway.

[Aren]

I've said before: Make it good, that's a slap in the face and the message "you chose poorly" to those who did the US in DAO. Make it bad, and it's a slap in the face and the message "you chose poorly" to those who did the DR. They'd have ended up pissing off many players in either case. Personally, I *really* can't stand the trope "buy the good outcome with a heroic sacrifice" any more, and that's how things would've ended up if not nullified since as I said, Bioware now usually resolves such conflicts in a conformist way. So that would've been worse.

 

They might have done something neutral-ish but interesting, but even that may have been too much for the doctrine of mainstream conformism that appears to dominate in Bioware's storytelling these days. Not that I can blame them all that much for being careful after the disastrous response to ME3's ending, but that doesn't make the result any better.

I would not have any problem if they would have gave to the DR a good outcome,however my warden (HNM) was not intrested in any of the romance option of DAO, so why have a child with a woman that i do not even like?  Same for Alistair same for Loghain.

I have even a volunteer for the sacrifice so DR skipped with no problem thanks god.

[In Exile]

Well, yes, but if they didn't think there might be a sequel when they made DAO - which they said but which I'm not sure I believe - they can be excused in this case. Unlike, say, the consequences of not thinking ahead in ME.

 

Kieran's status as an "old god child" being basically irrelevant, yeah, that's disappointing, but I expected worse. So...it's ok.

 

What they meant is what they meant with ME - not knowing if a sequel was going to be greenlight meant that they were writing to have a pretty satisfying end while leaving plot threads open for the future. I don't think the DA:O plot was ever written with the save import in mind. That wasn't a feature that was advertised. It was only with the success of ME1 - and the view that Bioware came to be avoid consequences in future titles, which was marketed a lot in ME1 - led to them eventually adding in the save import in DA:O. 

 

I think people also need to distinguish between Kieran being super special awesome and Urthemiel's soul surviving. That's the gamechanger, I think. 

[Akiza]

Bioware choices aren't mean to radically alter worldstates. They're meant to be RP options.

 

The DR is all about trusting Morrigan, and whether or not you're tempted by self-preservation, glory, or the (IMO insane) GW self-sacrifice ideals. 

Trusting a woman proven to be duplicious, willing to lie and act, a woman of no morals, AND a woman that outright refused to give you details to have access to the soul of a being that is capable of immense destruction is insane.

And letting HER raise it? A woman who has no qualms about murdering slaves for power?

 

 For all our warden  know she may sacrifice it in another ritual

Trust is something that must be earned, lies are not a good way to develop trust.

Not knowing what you are doing is even more insane,you do not know who are the old gods,and how world chainging they could be,you do not know if they are capable when awakened to control an horde of darkspawn even if the are untainted.

you do not even know at the time if Flemeth magic,an untested method will work,so basically for glory you risk in person instead to sent another GW with the tested method of the US,imho this is even more insane.

as inside you can argue that

Bioware games are all abouts choices without consequences,but is a pretty weak argument to make.

 

. And if you don't trust her then you've got bigger moral issues than a potentially harmful ritual.

A bigger moral issues than the DR?that is basically childbirth used as currency with manipulation at the level of the essence? Really really? Feed Loghain to the AD is not an issue at all, is justice.

and no you do not lose glory,because nobody cares in DAI,and few know the secret of the US,everyone (Anora included) will believe that Loghain is dead due to injuries,plus Solas or Flemeth will not gain any power over my decision.

I imagine that with the DR the Warden is either ancaring about the security of the world or that will live in paranoia when Morrigan the lovely warden's lover. will reveal after the events of DAI that her mother that is basically a goddess thirst of vengeance has tricked them both

and yet people think is the right idea and screams

"you fool you are insane DR best option evar!"

[XEternalXDreamsX]

I thought the DR was to bypass the sacrifice. Everything else was a bonus, including the child. Making it a big deal or story arc would have sucked for the US'ers out there.

[BabyPuncher]

I've said before: Make it good, that's a slap in the face and the message "you chose poorly" to those who did the US in DAO. Make it bad, and it's a slap in the face and the message "you chose poorly" to those who did the DR. They'd have ended up pissing off many players in either case. Personally, I *really* can't stand the trope "buy the good outcome with a heroic sacrifice" any more, and that's how things would've ended up if not nullified since as I said, Bioware now usually resolves such conflicts in a conformist way. So that would've been worse.

 

They might have done something neutral-ish but interesting, but even that may have been too much for the doctrine of mainstream conformism that appears to dominate in Bioware's storytelling these days. Not that I can blame them all that much for being careful after the disastrous response to ME3's ending, but that doesn't make the result any better.

 

The 'doctine of mainstream conformism,' huh?

 

I haven't heard that one.

[ShadowLordXII]

I will admit that considering the sheer implications and build-up for Keiran, having the OG soul instantly removed from him in an anti-climatic fashion takes the "teeth" out of the Dark Ritual.

 

Remember that the Dark Ritual is a viable alternative to a heroic sacrifice. But it had a clear unspoken risk. That Morrigan's intentions were not "pure" in the long-run or the Soul within Keiran would influence the boy into becoming something that's just as dangerous as an Archdemon.

 

Instead? Flemeth absorbs the Old god's soul and instantly the tension from the Dark Ritual is gone. As is the potential threat of a mage wielding the power of a tevinter god's soul and misusing it or causing more conflict from those who'd fear him.

 

Perhaps there's no way to have handled this arc in a way that would make "everyone happy". But how it's handled is clearly a disappointment and a waste of potential. What's wrong with exploring the butterfly effect of the Dark Ritual rather than essentially wasting the time of people who were led to believe that the Dark Ritual was more than a "get out of death" card.

 

Guess that's exactly what it was after all.

[Balek-Vriege]

I will admit that considering the sheer implications and build-up for Keiran, having the OG soul instantly removed from him in an anti-climatic fashion takes the "teeth" out of the Dark Ritual.

 

Remember that the Dark Ritual is a viable alternative to a heroic sacrifice. But it had a clear unspoken risk. That Morrigan's intentions were not "pure" in the long-run or the Soul within Keiran would influence the boy into becoming something that's just as dangerous as an Archdemon.

 

Instead? Flemeth absorbs the Old god's soul and instantly the tension from the Dark Ritual is gone. As is the potential threat of a mage wielding the power of a tevinter god's soul and misusing it or causing more conflict from those who'd fear him.

 

Perhaps there's no way to have handled this arc in a way that would make "everyone happy". But how it's handled is clearly a disappointment and a waste of potential. What's wrong with exploring the butterfly effect of the Dark Ritual rather than essentially wasting the time of people who were led to believe that the Dark Ritual was more than a "get out of death" card.

 

Guess that's exactly what it was after all.

 

We will see since the Old God soul plot isn't done yet I bet.  There's many possibilities going forward without Keiran being a centerpiece.

 

-  Fen'Harel becomes more powerful due to absorbing the power of two gods.

 

-  Morrigan becomes more powerful due to Flemythal giving her Urthemiel's soul and Solas hers.  Or tricks Fen'Harel by giving him Urthemiel's soul while giving Morrigan all of her soul/power through the Eluvian.

 

-  Urthemiel's soul not being destroyed will have implications in future installments pertaining to the Blights and the Darkspawn Magisters.  If there are unintended consequences to killing all the archdemons, having one uncorrupted old god soul around may prove beneficial.  Especially the God of Beauty which is probably better than the other, less "benign" sounding Old Gods.  Also the Architect, the High Priest of Urthemeil, is a fairly stand up Darkspawn Magister... for a Darkspawn Magister.   
 

[9TailsFox]

We will see since the Old God soul plot isn't done yet I bet.  There's many possibilities going forward without Keiran being a centerpiece.

 

-  Fen'Harel becomes more powerful due to absorbing the power of two gods.

 

-  Morrigan becomes more powerful due to Flemythal giving her Urthemiel's soul and Solas hers.  Or tricks Fen'Harel by giving him Urthemiel's soul while giving Morrigan all of her soul/power through the Eluvian.

 

-  Urthemiel's soul not being destroyed will have implications in future installments pertaining to the Blights and the Darkspawn Magisters.  If there are unintended consequences to killing all the archdemons, having one uncorrupted old god soul around may prove beneficial.  Especially the God of Beauty which is probably better than the other, less "benign" sounding Old Gods.  Also the Architect, the High Priest of Urthemeil, is a fairly stand up Darkspawn Magister... for a Darkspawn Magister.   
 

Or most logical conclusion nothing will happen because you know. Hawke picking mages or templars have so much effect.

If DR was done in DA:O Solas will get +25 HP. This is what we get at best and I doubt it we get even this. It will be slowly forgotten and have 0 effect in the future. Ok maybe some war table operation.

[Andres Hendrix]

People who are calling the OGB optional therefore inconsequential, yet still think the old god's soul is somehow more important; was the soul of the old god surviving not an optional consequence? Kieran could be born without it, not to mention Logain or the Warden could be sacrificed to destroy it--only the DR stops it from being destroyed.

[AtreiyaN7]

Morrigan clearly wanted to preserve the soul of an Old God, and I'm sure that she had other ideas about Kieran's future and the future of the soul that he carried. The fact that Flemeth intervened because she also has her own plans doesn't negate the fact that he was important in the sense of being a vessel that preserved that soul.

 

I don't see why Kieran should have ended up being another demi-god a la the Bhaalspawn - been there, done that in Baldur's Gate. I don't really need to see that again, and I'm glad that they didn't do it.

[9TailsFox]

Morrigan clearly wanted to preserve the soul of an Old God, and I'm sure that she had other ideas about Kieran's future and the future of the soul that he carried. The fact that Flemeth intervened because she also has her own plans doesn't negate the fact that he was important in the sense of being a vessel that preserved that soul.

 

I don't see why Kieran should have ended up being another demi-god a la the Bhaalspawn - been there, done that in Baldur's Gate. I don't really need to see that again, and I'm glad that they didn't do it.

I am not done it not been there. World always move forward new people born who never heard old stories. If you know it doesn't mean everyone in the world knows it. I play Baldarus gate but not BG2. Yes i wan to but have a lot off other stuff.

[Balek-Vriege]

Or most logical conclusion nothing will happen because you know. Hawke picking mages or templars have so much effect.

If DR was done in DA:O Solas will get +25 HP. This is what we get at best and I doubt it we get even this. It will be slowly forgotten and have 0 effect in the future. Ok maybe some war table operation.

 

Oh quite true, but having the soul separated from Keiran allows both to have an impact on lore and future plots without having to change much technically based on the Dark Ritual decision.  The OGB was always going to have a limited effect on plot, because it was such a drastic choice.  If it was handled like Anders/Justice always merging (Morrigan always having a kid and it always having an god-like soul), then it would have been easier to implement as an important story arc.

 

It wasn't so the OGB was always doomed to mediocrity, nothingness or an event which separated the god from the baby.  Really any big choice we make that could send a next installment into two completely different directions will always need to be limited.  For example, I think the reason decisions/epilogues in DAI vary so much is because in DA4 we will likely be in Northern Thedas and won't see the differences.  Just a couple southerner NPCs and factions will show up and be a bit different based on how we shaped the South.

 

Regardless, the events in DAI around the OGB were the right way to go.

 

Keiran is allowed to develop as a minor/main character along side Morrigan if he exists, without the limitations or other problems caused by the soul making him a demi-god.

 

Urthemeil's soul is now among god-like beings and can be easily added to their story arcs as a "powerup" plot device. This could have an effect both in overall story and combat when it comes to characters like Solas/Fen'Harel, but not define him anymore than no old god soul, since he's already considerably powerful because of other things.

[Aren]

Morrigan clearly wanted to preserve the soul of an Old God, and I'm sure that she had other ideas about Kieran's future and the future of the soul that he carried. The fact that Flemeth intervened because she also has her own plans doesn't negate the fact that he was important in the sense of being a vessel that preserved that soul.

 

 

 The DR is not a choice is just a "get out of death" card.

get out of death? when the Warden is still alive in DAA for no reason ala Leliana?

[Secret Rare]

I can absolutely blame the fans. There was nothing particularly noteworthy about the offer beyond the suspicious circumstances sorrounding its offer. From a metagame perspective it was obviously and unequivocally the best choice.

1)  The soul of an old god is nothing particularly noteworthy?

 There was no reason to believe that darkspawn would not hunt this reborn old god, turn him into an archdemon and start another blight. And there was also the risk that Morrigan was wrong or lying, or that something goes wrong and whatnot. And given the disastrous consequences of the blight, this risk is inacceptable. Even the most unwilling Grey Warden would see this.  

 

2) Have you realized that now the soul is in Flemeth's hands? She is obviously more wise than her daughter,still i don't trust her,or her unknown cause.

the unequivocally best choice is imho the Redentor ending.

[Fearsome1]

In Witch Hunt Morrigan ends up telling that she's going to prepare her son for what is to come, that change is coming to this world etc etc

 

 I thought something huge was going to happen to this child in the future. I didn't know his old god soul was removable...

 

But what was going to be the role of the OGB in the future? 

 

Only an extremely generous amount of mental gymnastics can excuse what has been done to this original game concept. I don't know whether it was various Bioware employees moving on to other careers or internal shifts between creative types that altered what was intended into what currently has been done, but there is little doubt that we moved away from what was meant to be.

 

A portion of that old god baby storytelling dynamic may simply have grown out of an organic change to the content based upon the new elements introduced for Inquisition and thus may not really need to be taken to task. I do however wish that in such instances the devs would just state outright - without equivocation - that they changed their minds in order to go a different path.

 

Often in this franchise, we are actively engaged in some storytelling path or a specific follow up is heavily intimated, only to discover later on that we received something entirely different and then these very same devs have the temerity to suggest that fans misinterpreted their meaning? That is not always true, but there is little that we can do about it!