411 réponses à ce sujet

[Jester]

Not exactly.

We still don't know why Flemeth wanted an Old God soul , we still don't know exactly what's an Old God either.

What we learn is Morrigan didn't really know what the hell she was doing .

I imagine Urthemiel's soul got destroyed when Solas killed Flemeth.

There's still 2 old gods underground , and chances Mythal is still there somewhere.

Doubtful. Either Flemeth send it through the Eluvian, or Solas absorbed it.

Apart from that, there are strong hints in Legacy, that Dumat is still 'alive', in one form or the other.

He answers the offering on his altar, and Corypheus powers up when he asks him for power. 

 

Of course, it may be just some remnant magic stored in his artifacts... or he may exist in the Fade.

 

I mean, it's funny. How did Flemeth know, that the Dark Ritual would work... unless it has already been used before?

 

It's also stated by Solas (who probably knows what he's talking about) that spirits are reborn in the Fade, but without their memories, as long as the idea endures.

If there are still people worshipping Dumat, he may be reborn in one form or the other.

 

As to not answering directly to prayers or to Corypheus... well, he was a Dragon of Silence, wasnt' he? .  

[Akiza]

 

Until they do.

 

Never killed Leliana,it was a pshicopatyc option taken only by 0.1% of  players,while the DR was rejected by a more significant number of players.

[Gaia300]

There's absolutely no reason to think that the OGB would be more powerful than the AD. Even if somehow it were true that it would be more powerful we have the formula: throw some Blight in its face and stab it with a GW. Boom: problem solved. OGs are weak to the blight, even if we assume they would be purely malevolent and more powerful than the AD, which of course there is no evidence in support.
 

That's completly insane and beyond stupid,so in order to kill it again you deliberately create the AD from scratch?

May i remind you that other than mandatory (Morrigan/Warden) and non mandatory (AListair/Loghain)no one know who the old god child is, and so yes he can be by far more world change than an AD could be.

Yes he is very powerful,enter physically into the fade with nothing more than is will plus all of his intelligence ,he is by far powerful than an insane Archdemon.

Kieran simply didn't get the chance to grow with that power.

[Jester]

 

That's completly insane and beyond stupid,so in order to kill it again you deliberately create the AD from scratch?

May i remind you that other than mandatory (Morrigan/Warden) and non mandatory (AListair/Loghain)no one know who the old god child is, and so yes he can be by far more world change than an AD could be.

Yes he is very powerful,enter physically into the fade with nothing more than is will plus all of his intelligence ,he is by far powerful than an insane Archdemon.

Kieran simply didn't get the chance to grow with that power.

 

Are we sure it wasn't Flemeth who opened the Eluvian from the Fade side?

And then called Kieran in?

[Ashaantha]

Are we sure it wasn't Flemeth who opened the Eluvian from the Fade side?

And then called Kieran in?

 

This is what I always thought happened. My interpretation of the scene of course.

[cindercatz]

(1) They couldn't make an optional element plot-critical.

(2) They wouldn't make an element that made many people uncomfortable plot-critical in a good way.

 

So yeah, I'm disappointed, but I can live with the nullification, because it's almost a certainty that I would've hated any alternative. Bioware doesn't write controversy any more without resolving it in a conformist way. Which is, btw, what happened here. I'm only ok with it because it could've been worse.

Just started reading the thread, but that's the saddest thing I've read about BioWare.. .. ..ever, I think. Just had to make a note.

[Gaia300]

Are we sure it wasn't Flemeth who opened the Eluvian from the Fade side?

And then called Kieran in?

Flemeth called him from the fade but it was the old god who opened that mirror with his power to reach Mythal.

Old god is not a title that came out of nowhere these things do not need to use the blood of thousand of slaves to enter into the fade,they do this at  will with apparently not even a great effort.

[robertthebard]

Flemeth called him from the fade but it was the old god who opened that mirror with his power to reach Mythal.
Old god is not a title that came out of nowhere these things do not need to use the blood of thousand of slaves to enter into the fade,they do this at  will with apparently not even a great effort.

Citations needed? If, as you say, the Old Gods could enter the Fade at will, why then, would they send the Magisters instead? Sorry, but the lore to date counters this claim.

Nit pick of the day: The Eluvians don't go into the Fade, they go to a place between.

At 4:20ish

[Ieldra]

Just started reading the thread, but that's the saddest thing I've read about BioWare.. .. ..ever, I think. Just had to make a note.

Well, it shouldn't actually be all that surprising. Expensive productions tend to play things safe, and since ME3 backfired I suppose they've become even more risk-averse. It is still sad though, indeed.

[Gaia300]

Citations needed? If, as you say, the Old Gods could enter the Fade at will, why then, would they send the Magisters instead? Sorry, but the lore to date counters this claim.

Nit pick of the day: The Eluvians don't go into the Fade, they go to a place between.

 

Put aside that video because isn't worth anything into the discussion, and no the lore doesn't contradict anything of what i said.

Hello? The old gods are sleeping underground,they are imprisoned,they can't go to the fade physically because they are imprisoned..

nit pick of the day i already know that the eluvians go into the place in between,but hey the old god redirected the eluvian into the fade with his power,It was Urthemiel doing not Flemeth,Urthemiel manipulated that Mirror not Flemeth,Urthemiel used the eluvian to reach the fade,the eluvian go into the fade if you know how to use them of course,which is something that the old god knows better than Morrigan,by far better than Morrigan.

[robertthebard]

Put aside that video because isn't worth anything into the discussion, and no the lore doesn't contradict anything of what i said.
Hello? The old gods are sleeping underground,they are imprisoned,they can't go to the fade physically because they are imprisoned..
nit pick of the day i already know that the eluvians go into the place in between,but hey the old god redirected the eluvian into the fade with his power,It was Urthemiel doing not Flemeth,Urthemiel manipulated that Mirror not Flemeth,Urthemiel used the eluvian to reach the fade,the eluvian go into the fade if you know how to use them of course,which is something that the old god knows better than Morrigan,by far better than Morrigan.

Can you link the codex for that? That's what asking for a citation means, I want to see what you're basing your point off of.

The Eluvians predate the Old Gods, since they belonged to the Ancient Elves, who were around before the Old Gods, apparently. The video fits perfectly into this conversation; you cannot open a door to a place that doesn't have a door. The Eluvians are linked to each other, hence you can't just use any Eluvian you want to go through from In Between. This is also pointed out in the video that you wish to disregard, since it really shoots a lot of holes in your theory. Here's the rub, if you have to change the facts presented to fit the theory, there's something wrong with the theory, not the facts. All we have to go on as far as Eluvians is what Morrigan shows us, note here, she doesn't tell us, she actually takes us there and shows us both how they work, and where they go.

[Aren]

Can you link the codex for that? That's what asking for a citation means, I want to see what you're basing your point off of.

The Eluvians predate the Old Gods, since they belonged to the Ancient Elves, who were around before the Old Gods, apparently. The video fits perfectly into this conversation; you cannot open a door to a place that doesn't have a door. The Eluvians are linked to each other, hence you can't just use any Eluvian you want to go through from In Between. This is also pointed out in the video that you wish to disregard, since it really shoots a lot of holes in your theory. Here's the rub, if you have to change the facts presented to fit the theory, there's something wrong with the theory, not the facts. All we have to go on as far as Eluvians is what Morrigan shows us, note here, she doesn't tell us, she actually takes us there and shows us both how they work, and where they go.

Na the old gods were there before of the eluvians,probably they are just elven gods "forgotten ones" this is why Mythal was so interested.

that old god, used the eluvian to reach the fade.

Also if i remember Morrigan say somethin about Kieran who opened the eluvian.

[Ieldra]

Na the old gods were there before of the eluvians,probably they are just elven gods "forgotten ones" this is why Mythal was so interested.

that old god, used the eluvian to reach the fade.

There is no evidence that supports your statement. The timeline sets the ancient elven civilization before the old gods are first mentioned, and the eluvians held that ancient civilization together. We don't know how old the Old Gods are, but as yet there is no indication that they were active before the humans arrived on the scene.

[Steelcan]

There is no evidence that supports your statement. The timeline sets the ancient elven civilization before the old gods are first mentioned, and the eluvians held that ancient civilization together. We don't know how old the Old Gods are, but as yet there is no indication that they were active before the humans arrived on the scene.

A lot of this is speculation, but there are a few too many coincidence for me to wholly dismiss the idea.

 

For example the number of Forgotten Ones and Tevinter Old Gods are the same 8 (7 Old Gods plus the mysterious Draconis), the Elven Gods were sealed away beyond the Veil by the Dread Wolf, he therefore must have (as per his dialogue with Cole) done something with the Forgotten Ones, and where better to put them than underground (also might help to explain there is some evidence of darkspawn pre-Golden City incident if you also think the elven gods created the Blight).  Furthermore, since we know the Elven deities existed in some form, its reasonable that the Forgotten Ones did as well, with that said what are the odds that the Old Gods are an entirely different, numerically identical, group of deities who assume the shape of dragons (as elven deities did as we see from both Flemeth and a codex entry)?

[Aren]

 

 

I mean, it's funny. How did Flemeth know, that the Dark Ritual would work... unless it has already been used before?

 

the ritual it not belong to FLemeth but to Mythal and was probably used among the ancient elves for other purposes.

[Aren]

There is no evidence that supports your statement. The timeline sets the ancient elven civilization before the old gods are first mentioned, and the eluvians held that ancient civilization together. We don't know how old the Old Gods are, but as yet there is no indication that they were active before the humans arrived on the scene.

 

Flemeth/Mythal was interested in one of them,because they (Mythal/Urthemiel)know each other.

He carries a piece of what once was Flemeth said,i believe that Flemeth know the nature of the old gods,they are mentioned by Solas as well,so of course that they were known among the elves  just with others names

The eluvians do not predate the old gods.

souls are not forced unwillingly,it was the old god who chose Mythal over Kieran,Flemeth didn't stole something,the old god went to Mythal because the old god know who Mythal is and Mythal know who the old god is.

Eluvians do not predate the elven gods and the forgotten ones.

[robertthebard]

Flemeth/Mythal was interested in one of them,because they (Mythal/Urthemiel)know each other.
He carries a piece of what once was Flemeth said,i believe that Flemeth know the nature of the old gods,they are mentioned by Solas as well,so of course that they were known among the elves  just with others names
The eluvians do not predate the old gods.

souls are not forced unwillingly,it was the old god who chose Mythal over Kieran,Flemeth didn't stole something,the old god went to Mythal because the old god know who Mythal is and Mythal know who the old god is.
Eluvians do not predate the elven gods and the forgotten ones.

That's a whole lot of "Because I said so". Care to share the links where you're getting this information from?

[myahele]

Based on what we little be know about Fade-beings. I am thinking that Urthemiel's souls is somewhere deep in the Fade where it can then grow; the same but different ala Solas Spirit of Wisdom friend and to probably protect him from the upcoming reckoning she has planned.

 

Whatever Flemythal's goals are I think it has to do with protecting the world and to dole out "justice" for the world's betrayal. In either case, it's not going to be good the mortals living in that world.

 

Even before the revelation I alway viewed Flemeth as some sort of "Environmental Conservative" Culling populations when there's just too much, protecting those endangered, etc

[Ieldra]

Flemeth/Mythal was interested in one of them,because they (Mythal/Urthemiel)know each other.

He carries a piece of what once was Flemeth said,i believe that Flemeth know the nature of the old gods,they are mentioned by Solas as well,so of course that they were known among the elves  just with others names

The eluvians do not predate the old gods.

souls are not forced unwillingly,it was the old god who chose Mythal over Kieran,Flemeth didn't stole something,the old god went to Mythal because the old god know who Mythal is and Mythal know who the old god is.

Eluvians do not predate the elven gods and the forgotten ones.

 

Eh.....I have rarely seen such a sequence of non-sequiturs and baseless assumptions.

 

(1) "The old god chose Mythal" I recall no single event that could be described that way. What the heck are you talking about?

(2) "Flemeth/Mythal knew Urthemiel"? A baseless assumption. You do not know, and there is no evidence for that. Also, we don't even know how old Mythal is.

(3) A connection between your statements about Mythal and Urthemiel and your statements about the eluvians does not exist. 

 

It appears you have a complete scenario in your mind on which you base your statements, only that scenario is completely speculative and has no evidence speaking for it.

 

So, if there is, against my impression, any logic in your statements, would you please explain the assumptions you make, your rationale for making them and the logic between them and your statements about the eluvians? Others have asked you for the same, but all you do is to repeat your baseless assumptions.

[9TailsFox]

I want join to discussion. I doubt Kieran/Urthemiel's need eluvien to enter the fade, I wouldn't be surprised he is dreamer or even more powerful then dreamer. And about age of Urthemiel's He knows about Titans, he knows about what qunari really are. i am sure he is as old as elven gods if not older.

And look how Solas speak about darkspawn, killing all Archdemons will not solve blight. Archdemons is not a problem they are only symptom.

[Aren]

Eh.....I have rarely seen such a sequence of non-sequiturs and baseless assumptions.

 

(1) "The old god chose Mythal" I recall no single event that could be described that way. What the heck are you talking about?

(2) "Flemeth/Mythal knew Urthemiel"? A baseless assumption. You do not know, and there is no evidence for that. Also, we don't even know how old Mythal is.

(3) A connection between your statements about Mythal and Urthemiel and your statements about the eluvians does not exist. 

 

It appears you have a complete scenario in your mind on which you base your statements, only that scenario is completely speculative and has no evidence speaking for it.

 

So, if there is, against my impression, any logic in your statements, would you please explain the assumptions you make, your rationale for making them and the logic between them and your statements about the eluvians? Others have asked you for the same, but all you do is to repeat your baseless assumptions.

I did not possess codex entries or developers notes or any official statement of some writer i only came to that conclusion by rationalizing some events,so assumptions yes but corroborated by fragments of informations..

• Flemeth say that souls cannot be forced,this is a general statement that can be applied also to the soul of the old god,this is confirmed by the voices of the well of sorrow,so Flemeth wasn't lying .
  No matter how powerful Flemeth is she cannot force any soul,much less Urthemiel soul to do anything against his will,much less to leave one body to go to another.
  When Urthemiel was under the control of the taint (AD form) he was incapable to control his essence,and the transfer was always automatic,because he was deprived of his will,at that point there were no soul just an AD essence infected with the taint.
  As the soul of the old god was "taken from the jaws of darkness" as Flemeth said,his will was restored.
  Urthemiel decided willingly to abandon Kieran for  Mythal the protector his decision .Flemeth didn't stole something from Kieran because the old god soul was another being inside of him, not an object under his command.
  Unlike Mythal who chosed Flemeth,Urthemiel did not choose Kieran he was forced into Kieran by the taint,this time he decided willingly to go to Flemeth/Myhtal and to do whatever was his true will .
• Have you ever wonder of why Flemeth wanted the ritual complete? The ritual only purpose was a form of protection meant and developed by Mythal the protector to preserve and avoid the death of Urthemiel not to steal his power  or knowledge,these are things like only the naive of Morrigan held to be true.
  Her motivation are by far more complex than a simple power obsession(Morrigan).
  Nothing imho is a simple case,Mythal is the protector and one of her solemn duty is to try to protect the others ancient beings,she did this with Andruil she did this with others ancient dragons and if the warden help she do this with Urthemiel.
  The fact that old gods possess a draconic form,just like Mythal is not something that i'm willingly to dismiss.
  SO yes i do beleive that Urthemiel is just another of the phanteon that Mythal know very well just like Solas know each of them.
  It was Urthemiel who was called by Flemeth/Mythal not Kieran,Urthemiel the source of Kieran's dreams  and nightmares not Flemeth.

  When the old god was removed from him ,Kieran was no longer in connection with Flemeth/Mythal,the dreams were suddenly ceased
  Mythal is old as much as the old gods/forgotten ones.

  So yes Mythal called Urthemiel who decided willingly to respond and go to her, i suppose is because he already knew her.

  • What connection are you talking about exactly?
    The fact that there are not mathematical demonstration does not disqualify the fact that theory around an impressive numbers of informations could be made.
    Eluvians do not predate the elven gods neither the old gods,they are creations of the elves, and they belong to the elves the didn't exist before of the elves..
    Do the elves predate the titans? i don't believe this
    Do the old gods know the titans?Yes,and the blood of the titans is incompatible with them,as Kieran can only suffer of nightmares because of lyrium which is their blood.as for why?
    Simple he is not allergic to lyrium is the old god who cannot tolerate titans blood.
    It doesn't matter on which came before if the first prototype of the eluvian into the world created by some elf or Mythal,the point is that both the goddess and the old god know how to use these mirror like noone else and since Mythal is one of the most ancient elves(more old than Abelas and co) i wouldn't be surprised if she was around even before the creation of the eluvians,just like Urthemiel.

 

The fact that it was an elven godess who protected a tevinter god is really telling on how can be speculated that tevinterians/shamlen taken in loan the gods of someone else.

Dumat-Zazikale-Toth-Andhoral-Urthemiel-Razikale-Lusacan-Draconis

are just new way in which tevinterians renamed them,each of their attributes

(dragon of silence,of chaos,of fire,of slaves,of beauty,of mistery,of night and of the sea) are just frills that humans used to adress  them ,because the old gods presented themselves to their dreamers with this new names in their language.

I wouldn't be surprised that each of  these names is not even their original that it belongs to the elven tongue.

SO some may think that they are the forgotten ones in their draconic form

(Anaris,Galedauran,Daren'thal ecc... ) 

 

[cindercatz]

Well, it shouldn't actually be all that surprising. Expensive productions tend to play things safe, and since ME3 backfired I suppose they've become even more risk-averse. It is still sad though, indeed.

Maybe, but the thing is that a lot of us play mostly for the story now, so when they get too risk averse (in that area), or they play it as safe as they have in terms of choice and consequence in particular, it undermines that primary want. They took a few safe 'risks' in regard to subject matter and presentation this time, which I think were plusses, and shied away from others, but they also played it way too safe in terms of their content investment dollar. Things feel pretty safe and homogenous (which isn't to say everything should be dark and gloomy all the time or anything). The player characters and reaction to import and previous playthroughs were all too generalised and the investment in side content (other than in-this-game-alone romance, which I consider central, not like sidequests) for the most part boiled down to too much nice scenery and a few cool creatures. I hope they tone down the bland quantity and general sameness of everything, and turn up the presentation quality and C&C impact of their world building side content. They played it generic with a lot of the basic gameplay too, they keep pushing that direction. It shouldn't be boring, no matter which aspect we're talking about. Playing too safe and generic and comfortable is just shooting itself in the foot.

 

I wish they'd look at Mass 3 differently though. To me, it's one of the best games to come out, unfortunately with a botched ending and some bad lines in the opening. Almost start nitpicking right there, which says something about how great it really was for the most part. Same root thing to me, not enough emphasis on really locking down and nailing the storytelling side of it, from A-Z, and committing to that as their calling card, their brand identity to build around. Not just a catchphrase. And then commit to fully supported customization and C&C within that. And get away from the generic aRPG thing.

 

Edit:

btw: Great post Aren.  

[Almostfaceman]

In Witch Hunt Morrigan ends up telling that she's going to prepare her son for what is to come, that change is coming to this world etc etc

The kid was meant for great things.

Was this all scrapped in DA:I?

If the OGB exists Flemeth removes his old god part (?? what was it really that she removed?) and he becomes a normal child. I thought something huge was going to happen to this child in the future. I didn't know his old god soul was removable...

 

So many questions with no answers.

But what was going to be the role of the OGB in the future? Before DA:I I thought he was meant to be a God or some sort of great leader when the change in the world took place.

 

As I imagined for ME3, I would love it if some plot thread like this one could lead a player to total and utter ruin. Ooops, I didn't do the Dark Ritual with Morrigan, so in DA5, my hero dies at the beginning of the game. Time to start over!

 

Yeah, unfortunately, not going to happen. Can't go off the rails like that in a mainstream AAA game. Or probably any game. I'd be the insane game designer who'd do that to my fans then go bankrupt. 

 

My theory, the role is going to be the same, this god is going to be a member of this group of gods who are struggling to resurface or be preserved after some cataclysmic event in the past (possibly mitigated or made worse by the Dread Wolf). Solas (Dread Wolf) has more to do, as does probably Mythal... this is part of the Dragon Age which may end up being a Renaissance for the magical and a grand avoidance of the Mundane.  

[MidnightWolf]

Personally I'm glad it came to nothing. As a Mother, I find the whole thing completely distasteful, and can't imagine using a Child to gain something......especially something I know very little/nothing about.
Morrigan is and always will be a power hungry fool.....her reaction after she's drank from the Well, if she doesn't have a Child, proves this. She's positively drunk on her new found power.

[German Soldier]

Point one: the Wardens have only been around for about a thousand years, not millennia. Second, Disciples didn't even exist until recently. Three, in the Order's mind, why fix what isn't broken? They have no reason to try to save something that is trying to destroy the world, and they already know how to stop it. Fourth, why would a Warden think "Hey, let's feed Darkspawn our blood and see what happens."?

Point one

1 millennium=1000 years 1 thousand years=1000 years i don't see the difference

Point two

Codex entry of DAI mentioned that intelligent darkspawn where around long before the events of DAA and the GW not knowing about them just make them to be artificially incompetents at best,really stupid at worse.

Point 3

Understand or try to understand who your enemies are,why they act like this,where they came from instead to wait for them to trigger another blight is what an intelligent and sane military order will do,not wait 400 years with coffee and croissant ready to die for the calling without not even try to do research like Avernus did or find a cure unless your typically mary sue Protagonist will try.

Sorry but some thing about the GW are inconsistent.