411 réponses à ce sujet

[Vilegrim]

Glad of it being pretty much nullified.

 

Got tired of the it should be canon discussions.

 

 

I am the precise opposite, I wanted it to be vital so all the self righteous self sacrifice playthrus end up dooming Thedas.

[Lumix19]

Got to agree with a lot of what Ieldra says here. Choices (for me at least) are more about role playing the decision process rather then seeing the outcome and choosing the one I would like. Plus I don't necessarily dislike heroic sacrifice but I hate the idea that because the Dark Ritual is the unknown choice it is automatically the "bad" one. It feels like people were expecting another lesson on selfishness vs. sacrifice which I find a cliché.

[Ieldra]

Got to agree with a lot of what Ieldra says here. Choices (for me at least) are more about role playing the decision process rather then seeing the outcome and choosing the one I would like. Plus I don't necessarily dislike heroic sacrifice but I hate the idea that because the Dark Ritual is the unknown choice it is automatically the "bad" one. It feels like people were expecting another lesson on selfishness vs. sacrifice which I find a cliché.

That it often comes across as such a lesson is the main reason why I hate it, just like any other case of heavy-handed moralizing. It was 15 seconds into the intro of DAO when I knew I would hate the Chantry, after the narrator said "The Chantry teaches that it was the pride of man that brought the darkspawn into our world", the very first sentence spoken in the franchise. I knew some tale about humans overreaching their prescribed domain was coming. To this day, I think the attempt to gain entrance to the Golden City would've been an admirable undertaking had it not been tainted by so much blood sacrifice. Of course, the Chantry's tale omits that just to drive the message home about what they really don't like: human ingeniousness reaching out to cross borders some reactionaries say should remain inviolate. Well, at least it's not the story itself speaking here rather than an actor within it. A bad outcome of the DR would've sent a similar message from the story itself, and so I'm glad it was avoided.

[Faded]

They could have made the Dark Ritual a mixed result of good and bad.  I think that would satisfy a lot of people.  Instead you're decision to do the ritual will only determine whether Morrigan will have a child.  He feels lonely without OGB now, but there will probably be nothing else about it probably.  A minor thing or nothing with Flemith / Solas.  I was thrilled that my ultimate sacrifice actually had a regular child with Morrigan.  Now it won't matter how you had the child.  It doesn't have to pan out to world changing but just something of some sort of significance in some location of the world.

 

Why not mix results.  I'm bashed over the head about how terrible Harrowmont is all the time in Awakening and Inquisition.  What can I say my warden felt like Bhelen would do or say anything and might not commit troops for the blight once he got what he wanted from you.  It would be cool if there were some choices where siding with a less trustworthy character leads to punishment later as long as the game provides some ways of looking into the characters.  Even if the character says some good things, but is ultimately just lying to you.(speaking of which would be perfectly reasonable when deciding on the dark ritual with Morrigan or not)  Sometimes you should be right to act in such a way and sometimes wrong.  The way OGB decision panned out was to ultimately make the choice feel nullified.

[Aren]

Got to agree with a lot of what Ieldra says here. Choices (for me at least) are more about role playing the decision process rather then seeing the outcome and choosing the one I would like. Plus I don't necessarily dislike heroic sacrifice but I hate the idea that because the Dark Ritual is the unknown choice it is automatically the "bad" one. It feels like people were expecting another lesson on selfishness vs. sacrifice which I find a cliché.

nvm

[Versus Omnibus]

I never saw the scene with the OGS (Old God Soul) as the ending to it. We still don't know what Morrigan planned on using it for, and now

Spoiler

it's in the hands of either Flemeth or Solas.

 

To me, it seems more like Bioware was reminding us the Dark Ritual choice is still relevent and we'll most likely see it again in the future.

[laudable11]

Streamlining.

[In Exile]

Sounds like normal human behaviour. Can't solve a problem now, contain it and wait, hoping that someone will find a better solution. Then it *is* contained, the problem loses urgency in people's minds and they stop trying to find a solution and make themselves comfortable with the status quo, until some day, the problem escapes its containment and explodes in everyone's faces. On a smaller scale, you can see this every day in RL.

The scale is the problem. Whistling away the danger doesn't work when you're facing an apocalyptic scenario. And that's Corypheus. But the Wardens love putting off dealing with the apocalypse, which is why their order is barely functional.

[In Exile]

It was dark because it had an unknown outcome, and appeared somewhat fishy to an unbiased observer. It also had the potential to end badly for the child, in spite of Morrigan's reassurances, which made it potentially evil. That nothing bad came of it does not invalidate the impression it made at the time you were asked to enact it.

But it wasn't anymore fishy than Riordan's own line about souls. That you (the player) want to trust Riordan is entirely subjective. The idea that it could affect a child at all - that there would even BE a child to affect in any meaningful way - was also purely speculative. We had no information beyond "do you believe Morrigan based on your personal relationship?"

That, to me, is the opposite of dark. It all really just turns on the weird hang up people have about children in our society.

[MACharlie1]

I never saw the scene with the OGS (Old God Soul) as the ending to it. We still don't know what Morrigan planned on using it for, and now

Spoiler

it's in the hands of either Flemeth or Solas.

 

To me, it seems more like Bioware was reminding us the Dark Ritual choice is still relevent and we'll most likely see it again in the future.

This. The fact that Flemeth took it from Kieran for unknown reasons - Morrigan states as much that she has no friggen idea what she's up to - seems to indicate that theres going to be more with the OGS. Maybe not so much the baby but the soul - yes. 

[Kroepoek]

Well, it's something. I call it fluff.

[TK514]

I think it got exactly as much relevance and screen time as it deserved, and I'm glad it's done.

[Ash Wind]

As I've said before, a decision does not derive its meaning by its outcome, but by its intent. 

 

The problem is, regardless of what the decision means to you, the story sends a message by implementing a certain outcome. Give it a bad outcome, that's akin to a slap in the face and the message "You chose poorly". Everyone hates that. Give it a very good outcome, that's a slap in the face and the message "Your sacrifice was unnecessary" to those who avoided the ritual. Everyone hates that, too. So they try to make balanced outcomes, sending the message "OK you get what you want here, but you'll have to pay for it somewhere else". As long as everyone gets the same message from their outcome, it is perceived as fair.

 

I chose the ritual because it was interesting. Showing it as a big unknown rather than an obvious evil went against the grain of mainstream storytelling, making it something you haven't seen a million times before in fantasy stories. A bad outcome would have completely nullified my appreciation, as it would've sent the message that everything goes as the mainstream expectation dictates, and don't stop to think and just accept the prescribed value system. While the outcome is bland, it is also fair and not bad. So I'm ok with it.

 

What I'm not ok with is this: Bioware seems done with going against the grain. Parts of DAI appear like an attempt to clean up the legacy of DAO so that they can now tell more mainstream stories without those pesky nonstandard elements from DAO getting in the way. We'll never get a character as interesting as Morrigan again, we'll never get something like the Dark Ritual again, that age has passed. That's why as much as I love DAI for what it does well, I feel that something irreplaceable has been lost. Lost innocence, lost inspiration, maybe, I don't know. The DA team is pulled and pushed in too many directions by circumstances beyond their control. and everything they write has to be considered from too many viewpoints and thus, the eventual story will inevitably lose impact. 

 

I wonder if it's still possible for them to tell the story they want to tell. I also wonder how that story has changed over time.

A well thought out position which I 'liked' because of the thought behind it. However, maybe I am overly analytical, as the Intent of a choice means less to me than the outcome. The purpose of giving a player a dire choice is the resulting consequence of such choice should it be made. The genious behind the DR, and the reason I think it has spawned such debate over the years is the consequence; the possible self-serving deal with the devil... the fact that its called the 'Dark' Ritual only adds to its intrique. I can save your life and the life of your friend... but at what cost? The decision is made even more interesting based on the fact that we have so little information on its possbile consequence, and even if you romanced Morrigan, you know 2 facts, she was raised by Flemeth, and (well DAO Morrigan) approved of darker choices (sacrificing the elves to increase ones power).

 

At this point, the devs took a right turn and neutered the choice made in DAO. I agree that its purpose is basically to hit the reset button and start fresh.

[Fireheart]

What confused me about the Morrigan and Flemeth reunion scene is after you leave the Eluvian, and Morrigan says "she wanted the Old God soul all along", and I'm thinking to myself, well duhhh, that's why she gave you the ritual and told you to follow the Warden in the first place? Did you forget? Then she says she doesn't know what Flemeth intends to do with it, and I'm even further baffled. Well, why did you want the OGS? Did she not give you any further instructions beyond, "make sure you seduce that warden and get laid with him so you can get prego and get that Soul". 

 

But yeah, I never really saw them doing much with the OGB. When I joined the DA community, I was over a year late and when I finished the game and saw websites eagerly discussing its future repercussions, I vehemently denied anything would come from it. I thought it might be interesting if something did happen, but at the same time I really, really did not want anything to happen. But playing through DAI and seeing what we got, I'm actually a little disappointed. I never wanted to see Morrigan again, certainly not the baby, but if they were going to have him show up, I would've at least like to have seen something more interesting. People talk about how Morrigan changed in the scene with Flemeth, but I really don't see it. If the Warden's life wasn't saved at the cost of the ritual, I honestly think it wouldn't have been worth it. Like having a human child with Morrigan and then dying, I see that as like the worst choice, whether or not it makes Morrigan a better person. Kieran, for the short while we get to chat with him, doesn't seem particularly interesting or special, and Morrigan's change? So what, all women change when they become mothers. Not like it's the first time. I wasn't surprised by it, nor was it unexpected.

[Ash Wind]

What confused me about the Morrigan and Flemeth reunion scene is after you leave the Eluvian, and Morrigan says "she wanted the Old God soul all along", and I'm thinking to myself, well duhhh, that's why she gave you the ritual and told you to follow the Warden in the first place? Did you forget? Then she says she doesn't know what Flemeth intends to do with it, and I'm even further baffled. Well, why did you want the OGS? Did she not give you any further instructions beyond, "make sure you seduce that warden and get laid with him so you can get prego and get that Soul". 

 

But yeah, I never really saw them doing much with the OGB. When I joined the DA community, I was over a year late and when I finished the game and saw websites eagerly discussing its future repercussions, I vehemently denied anything would come from it. I thought it might be interesting if something did happen, but at the same time I really, really did not want anything to happen. But playing through DAI and seeing what we got, I'm actually a little disappointed. I never wanted to see Morrigan again, certainly not the baby, but if they were going to have him show up, I would've at least like to have seen something more interesting. People talk about how Morrigan changed in the scene with Flemeth, but I really don't see it. If the Warden's life wasn't saved at the cost of the ritual, I honestly think it wouldn't have been worth it. Like having a human child with Morrigan and then dying, I see that as like the worst choice, whether or not it makes Morrigan a better person. Kieran, for the short while we get to chat with him, doesn't seem particularly interesting or special, and Morrigan's change? So what, all women change when they become mothers. Not like it's the first time. I wasn't surprised by it, nor was it unexpected.

Regretably, like numerous aspects of DA, they could have done so much more, but instead, opted to do little, make it clean and sanitized as opposed to complicated and dark.

[MajorStupidity]

Welcome to the differences between media with branching narratives and ones with a single story arc. If the DA franchise were confined to novels or movies or even linear action/adventure games, the OGB likely would have developed into something with much more significance. But because his existence depends on choices the player has made, his impact in the story has to be relegated to something relatively inconsequential. There's something rather ironic in the fact that more choices lead to less freedom on the devs' part to craft a story along traditional paths.

 

That's one of the unique hurdles RPGs face. On one hand, players want to feel like they're affecting the world in a meaningful way. On the other, there are only so many branches the story can take moving forward before it becomes a logistical nightmare to code and create. People have complained recently about DA2 and DAI feeling more limited in the choices you can make, but if you think about it, by restricting the outcome of the story, there's a slightly greater chance that the choices and actions you do get to make will have a deeper impact later on.

A lot of people get upset at the notion of Illusion of choice, but your explanation is the main reason I usually support it. Make me feel like I am making decisions that are largely irrelevant in the grand scheme of things, but if the devs have a clear story they wish to tell then please just tell the story don't let it become too divergent that you need to water down the decisions in the long run.

 

Devs can get away with more decision making in a stand alone game without any sequels, but for a franchise that they clearly want to expand upon it is better to limit what decisions we make because in the end they will be so tangled up in the divergent storylines that they will need to start retconning anyway (Leliana for example)

[Vicious]

really the only choice that makes any difference at all is if someone sleeps with morrigan.

 

Because Kieran leaves with her at the end if he exists, and softens her character a bit to which even Alistair humorously points it out.

 

the OGB is irrelevant to the overall plot and always was. Kieran is a normal kid, voiced by Claudia Black's own son. (very meta of you bioware)

 

 

 

In the end it was just, at best, a hint to the nature of Flemeth and others like her.

[Shahadem]

In Witch Hunt Morrigan ends up telling that she's going to prepare her son for what is to come, that change is coming to this world etc etc

The kid was meant for great things.

Was this all scrapped in DA:I?

If the OGB exists Flemeth removes his old god part (?? what was it really that she removed?) and he becomes a normal child. I thought something huge was going to happen to this child in the future. I didn't know his old god soul was removable...

 

So many questions with no answers.

But what was going to be the role of the OGB in the future? Before DA:I I thought he was meant to be a God or some sort of great leader when the change in the world took place.

I had a funny feeling that the ritual was going to have absolutely no negative consequences, and it turns out I was right.

[Vilegrim]

I had a funny feeling that the ritual was going to have absolutely no negative consequences, and it turns out I was right.

 

 

Ih ad the feeling that being so self righteous and vainglorious  that only an epic and unnecessary martyrdom was acceptable would have no devastating consequences..I was right to, mores the pity.

[spinachdiaper]

Hopefully Kieran can be a companion character in the next game or DLC. Maybe he can be a sword wielding mage too.

[Bayonet Hipshot]

My dear posters, this is Bioware we are talking about. Choices stopped mattering to them since Dragon Age 2 and Mass Effect 3. Remember the Rachni Queen ? The Ferelden monarch's boons ? The Cullen retcon ? The Leliana Sacred Ashes whitewash ? Qunari sexism whitewash ?

 

Bioware :- Making RPG games that pretends your choices matter. 

 

Heck, even the Nightmare Demon jokes about it :- "Did you think you mattered Hawke ? Did you think anything you ever did mattered ? You couldn't even save your city, how could you expect to strike down a god ? Your love interest is going to die, just like your family and everyone you ever cared about"

 

Bioware to us :- ' Did you think you mattered players ? Did you think anything you ever did mattered ? Your characters are going to die or become irrelevant, just like the choices and decisions you made.

[Ieldra]

But it wasn't anymore fishy than Riordan's own line about souls. That you (the player) want to trust Riordan is entirely subjective. The idea that it could affect a child at all - that there would even BE a child to affect in any meaningful way - was also purely speculative. We had no information beyond "do you believe Morrigan based on your personal relationship?"

That, to me, is the opposite of dark. It all really just turns on the weird hang up people have about children in our society.

Oh, I don't disagree. Personally, I'd never call the unknown "dark" in such a way, and I felt quite comfortable enacting the ritual since I don't have this "weird hangup" as you call it, but that's what most people associate. This does not change even if you accept that there is a difference:  if you believe Riordan and die in the fight against the archdemon, you are the only one carrying the consequences. If you believe Morrigan and enact the ritual, there is a potential risk to someone else, never mind that it's a child. Moral reasoning would tell you that it's rather problematic to take into account the welfare of someone you don't even know will exist, even more so if that costs you your life, but yet again, what people feel about it is different.

[TEWR]

Eh, I don't particularly care about Bioware's lack of vision. I can more then make up for things in my own mind.

[Shimmer_Gloom]

People have a lot of hang ups about 'our choices don't matter!' But when did they? DAO? ME1? BG2?

What game can we point to that isn't Bioware that has meaningful choices and consequences? Is it a Taletell game, like Walking dead (Prob not considering the budget. They are masters of the illusion). Is it Alpha Protical? A game that never had a sequel?

Bioware doesn't really have competition when it comes to having descisions play out over multiple games. They are just about the only people that do it. Some some things mattered more than others. Hindsight and metagame are 20/20.

I'm just happy the OGB had a payoff this soon at all. And as has been said we don't know WHAT will happen to the OGS in the next game.

[Il Divo]

People have a lot of hang ups about 'our choices don't matter!' But when did they? DAO? ME1? BG2?

What game can we point to that isn't Bioware that has meaningful choices and consequences? Is it a Taletell game, like Walking dead (Prob not considering the budget. They are masters of the illusion). Is it Alpha Protical? A game that never had a sequel?

Bioware doesn't really have competition when it comes to having descisions play out over multiple games. They are just about the only people that do it. Some some things mattered more than others. Hindsight and metagame are 20/20.

I'm just happy the OGB had a payoff this soon at all. And as has been said we don't know WHAT will happen to the OGS in the next game.

 

Emphasis on this.