You have no idea what forcing is. The warden convinces him to and that's it. It's not rape and that's final.
this if anyones putting the warden in a bad situation it was Duncan he basically press gangs you into the service and it seems he didn't tell alistair the fine print, Morrigan gives you the only not die option on table and people hate her for it. Don't like the Morrigan ritual get soul raped by an archdemon see if that feels better.
this if anyones putting the warden in a bad situation it was Duncan he basically press gangs you into the service and it seems he didn't tell alistair the fine print, Morrigan gives you the only not die option on table and people hate her for it. Don't like the Morrigan ritual get soul raped by an archdemon see if that feels better.
It's less problematic for me to use the Loghain way out.
I think Bioware wrote themselves into a corner by letting players choose to have OGB or not. Thus, they had to minimize his impact on the story (or remove it entirely). You can't draw two parallel main story quests revolving round a single choice way back when. Well, you could, and it'd be awesome--but impractical.
This is my thought on this anyway, I'm probably wrong.
Point one: the Wardens have only been around for about a thousand years, not millennia. Second, Disciples didn't even exist until recently. Three, in the Order's mind, why fix what isn't broken? They have no reason to try to save something that is trying to destroy the world, and they already know how to stop it. Fourth, why would a Warden think "Hey, let's feed Darkspawn our blood and see what happens."?
I think Bioware wrote themselves into a corner by letting players choose to have OGB or not. Thus, they had to minimize his impact on the story (or remove it entirely). You can't draw two parallel main story quests revolving round a single choice way back when. Well, you could, and it'd be awesome--but impractical.
This is my thought on this anyway, I'm probably wrong.
This... I think they had a plan for the OGB, but then that changed when the franchises lead designer changed (#not for the better). It could NOT be a world changing occurrence, because it was an option, but those who choose it should have had a payoff that matter, good or BAD. Looking back on it, those whose canon warden performed the Ultimate Sacrifice because they didn't trust Morrigan or feared the consequence of making the deal with the devil to save themselves... should be royally pissed off. There apparently will be absolutely NO consequence.... BW took the ***** way out and completely neutered a major choice of DAO because it was the safe (and inherently uninteresting choice)...
aka you choose to kill your warden for abosultely no reason what-so-ever. We'll pretend its a major decision, but it has absolutely no 'payoff' because we, as devs, are total weasles. BUT, you should care about future major choices, because we will do those justice.... seriously
#no_reason_to_care_about_any_choice_in_a_BW_game_again.
^We don't know that. It's possible that Solas with the OGB's soul will be able to create a no-win scenario for players that chose the dark ritual.
Now, wouldn't that be pretty dark if it happened in game 5?
^We don't know that. It's possible that Solas with the OGB's soul will be able to create a no-win scenario for players that chose the dark ritual.
Now, wouldn't that be pretty dark if it happened in game 5?
Are you sure that Solas has that soul? because frankly i cannot understand where flemeth has put this soul.
^We don't know that. It's possible that Solas with the OGB's soul will be able to create a no-win scenario for players that chose the dark ritual.
Now, wouldn't that be pretty dark if it happened in game 5?
Still, there are limits to WHAT it can mean because its a choice. Not everyone choose it, and those who didn't choose to do the Dark Ritual would cry bloody murder if the OGB had any major significance. Yet there should have been a recongnizeable consequence to the choice. Solas... Flemeth... seriously, how much worse can they get with the OGB than what they were before the OGB..... minimal and uninteresting.
BW writers are fantastic at setting up interesting scenarios... however, 3 games in, they are abysmal failures at the payoff... i.e. the Mage v. Templar scenario. There's literally no scenario they could come up with which would make me say, I can't wait to see the conclusion... because their conclusions are a collection of abysmal failures.
#oh, hey, the 'Maker' just chose to ressurect Leliana... that's the great 'mysterious and secretive' secret of her retcon.
I have told millennia but do you really believe that 1000 years are few and not sufficient to make them less incapable?
1) A thousand of years in studying darkspawn, without have found other ways to destroy the archdemons is just ridiculous and plot contrived
2) Disciples exist only by recently i know this thanks a lot clever one i have DAA as well!
But if the architect have managed to create them with his little knowledge (remember that he have forgotten everything of his past) why the wardens have never tried to do experiment on the darkspawn? They that are supposed to know the darkspawn better than anyone else
3)Yes what beautiful minds have the order of the grey.... Broken? you mean it's useless to not try to cure the darkspawn from their compulsion ,better to trying to kill them all (that is impossible) well good luck with that.
4) Yes why the moronic order in 1000 of years have never tought to find a way to free the darkspawn from their compulsion , maybe with that solution now Zazikale,Toth and Andorhal.Urthemiel would not be awakened as Archdemons .
Their past lore is ridiculously contrived, secrets,secrets of the awesome wardens , there is no need to keep the secrets of the US.
Let's imprison Corypheus, look we cannot kill him but we must keep the secret of his existence and let as hope that the world will forget about it................ 1000 later the age of the fanatic and exalted Elder one.
Still, there are limits to WHAT it can mean because its a choice. Not everyone choose it, and those who didn't choose to do the Dark Ritual would cry bloody murder if the OGB had any major significance. Yet there should have been a recongnizeable consequence to the choice. Solas... Flemeth... seriously, how much worse can they get with the OGB than what they were before the OGB..... minimal and uninteresting.
BW writers are fantastic at setting up interesting scenarios... the are abysmal failures at the pay off... i.e. the Mage v. Templar scenario.
The situation isn't really resolved yet though is it? The soul is still floating around somewhere. That's a pretty recognisable consequence. Plus I thought the Mage v. Templar was done well. It just wasn't what I expected, being a set up for Corypheus' attempt to corrupt both factions rather than another war we would resolve ourselves (reminds me of the Quarian-Geth situation to be honest).
This... I think they had a plan for the OGB, but then that changed when the franchises lead designer changed (#not for the better). It could NOT be a world changing occurrence, because it was an option, but those who choose it should have had a payoff that matter, good or BAD. Looking back on it, those whose canon warden performed the Ultimate Sacrifice because they didn't trust Morrigan or feared the consequence of making the deal with the devil to save themselves... should be royally pissed off. There apparently will be absolutely NO consequence.... BW took the ***** way out and completely neutered a major choice of DAO because it was the safe (and inherently uninteresting choice)...
aka you choose to kill your warden for abosultely no reason what-so-ever. We'll pretend its a major decision, but it has absolutely no 'payoff' because we, as devs, are total weasles. BUT, you should care about future major choices, because we will do those justice.... seriously
#no_reason_to_care_about_any_choice_in_a_BW_game_again.
I resent the implication (excuse me if I'm misinterpreting) that the Dark Ritual should have a negative consequence otherwise the Ultimate Sacrifice was a waste. You made the choice to distrust Morrigan/the Ritual at that's what roleplaying is about. If at the end the Dark Ritual wasn't so dark after all that doesn't invalidate your choice, it just means you misjudged the situation. Plus "Heroic Sacrifice is the best choice!" is such a cliche anyway, I for one am glad they didn't jump into that pit.
The situation isn't really resolved yet though is it? The soul is still floating around somewhere. That's a pretty recognisable consequence. Plus I thought the Mage v. Templar was done well. It just wasn't what I expected, being a set up for Corypheus' attempt to corrupt both factions rather than another war we would resolve ourselves (reminds me of the Quarian-Geth situation to be honest).
I resent the implication (excuse me if I'm misinterpreting) that the Dark Ritual should have a negative consequence otherwise the Ultimate Sacrifice was a waste. You made the choice to distrust Morrigan/the Ritual at that's what roleplaying is about. If at the end the Dark Ritual wasn't so dark after all that doesn't invalidate your choice, it just means you misjudged the situation. Plus "Heroic Sacrifice is the best choice!" is such a cliche anyway, I for one am glad they didn't jump into that pit.
A. No, perhaps its not 'resolved' but the implications of Morrigan's 'plan' is neutered. I choose to do the Dark Ritual because the choice was Die, or have Alisair Die, rather than perform the Dark Ritual. Guess what your possible deal with the devil may have on the world? Next to nothing. The choice at the time was have a child who would be born with the soul of an old god or die, or watch someone else die... The choice was NOT have a child born with the soul of an old god... that will ultimately be hyjacked by Flemeth and or the Dread Wolf, 2 of the already seedy characters in the game, so what more damage does it really do... Its false advertising. Like saying choose between mages or templars, then have the choice neutered by aliens who kill both mages and templars.
b. My apologies if my words offend those whose canon is the Ultimate Sacrifice. My point was... if it has aboslutely next to no negative affect on the world... why would you not choose to live rather than sacrifice yourself. Die... or perform a meanless ritual which will have next to no meaning in the DA universe? You can throw yourself on your sword as many times as you like, but since it means NOTHING... it seems like a pointless waste of a good person.
You don't seem to understand how people think. Once people know how to solve a problem, they won't be looking for another way unless the old one stops working.
i change my mind it doesn't make sense especially if you always need a sacrifice,they have nothing to do in their free time.
Just be glad it didn't happen off screen.
I would have vastly preferred learning that it happened long before we ran into Morrigan in the Winter Palace.
A. No, perhaps its not 'resolved' but the implications of Morrigan's 'plan' is neutered. I choose to do the Dark Ritual because the choice was Die, or have Alisair Die, rather than perform the Dark Ritual. Guess what your possible deal with the devil may have on the world? Next to nothing. The choice at the time was have a child who would be born with the soul of an old god or die, or watch someone else die... The choice was NOT have a child born with the soul of an old god... that will ultimately be hyjacked by Flemeth and or the Dread Wolf, 2 of the already seedy characters in the game, so what more damage does it really do... Its false advertising. Like saying choose between mages or templars, then have the choice neutered by aliens who kill both mages and templars.
b. My apologies if my words offend those whose canon is the Ultimate Sacrifice. My point was... if it has aboslutely next to no negative affect on the world... why would you not choose to live rather than sacrifice yourself. Die... or perform a meanless ritual which will have next to no meaning in the DA universe? You can throw yourself on your sword as many times as you like, but since it means NOTHING... it seems like a pointless waste of a good person.
I'm not offended. In fact Ultimate Sacrifice isn't even my canon playthrough. The point I'm trying to make is that the Dark Ritual doesn't need to have a negative outcome to be valid (in my opinion). In fact I'd prefer if it didn't because that would make the choice a trite lesson about how "heroic sacrifice" is good and "selfish evil magic" is bad which frankly I could do without. Well perhaps Morrigan's plan was neutered but what choice ever goes the way we expected? I'm sure those who wanted Alistair to remain a Warden didn't expect having to choose between him and Hawke. You just make the choice your happy with in the moment and live with the consequences (or look up the outcomes online and choose accordingly).
To be honest, I really do think that this all comes down to taking an optional storyline and bringing it to a mandatory one. Now, regardless of whether the OGB ever existed, all of the power lies with Fen'Harel. If Mythal had the OGB, it went to him. If she didn't, he still has her power. Now they can just make slight tweaks to any plot involving Fen'Harel to reflect the OGB, but any plot about power can still happen since he has Mythal's power anyway (or so it seems). If they didn't do that, then the OGB could never play a significant role at all since there are a bunch of people who don't have him. It waters down the effect of that decision for sure, but I think it was just a streamlining decision, to be honest.
But I have seen videos on Youtube where there was no Kieran and at the end, Flemeth is still shown putting some bluish thing inside the Eluvian. When I first saw that scene in my playthrough, I didn't even think she was putting something in. To me, it looked like she was testing to see if it was working, and was about to go through, then her old friend showed up. Now everyone has these ideas that she put something inside, and watching the scene again, yeah, it looks that way. But if she does that regardless of whether the DR was done, then what does this mean? It can't be the Old God soul she put through, because what if the DR was not done. I have seen some people speculate that she put Mythal's soul in the Eluvian to protect it from Solas. I think Solas absorbed Flemeth because of the evil look on his face, and the fact he says that the people need him, so it sounds like he's planning something. I don't think he came there with the intention to absorb Flemeth, but at the moment he was the most desperate and saw opportunity so he took it. Honestly, I hated seeing Morrigan again and especially hated seeing Kieran. I hope that with the OGS being gone now, it means that these two won't show up again, or at least not any time soon. I'm also glad the OGB was put to rest. I always laughed in people's faces when they brought that up, that it would be some big event. I knew it would boil down to nothing. Thank the Maker.
In this video, at 22:46 it shows Morrigan alone, then cuts to the post-credits epilogue.
Also, people say that Solas glows with Flemeth's eyes. But I don't ever remember Flemeth's eyes glowing in any of her appearances. Anyone know where it happens?
Modifié par Fireheart, 30 janvier 2015 - 10:45 .
IMO this thread has been dealt with quite decently.
The truth is whatever Bioware does there will always be someone unsatisfied and complaining.
This... I think they had a plan for the OGB, but then that changed when the franchises lead designer changed (#not for the better). It could NOT be a world changing occurrence, because it was an option, but those who choose it should have had a payoff that matter, good or BAD. Looking back on it, those whose canon warden performed the Ultimate Sacrifice because they didn't trust Morrigan or feared the consequence of making the deal with the devil to save themselves... should be royally pissed off. There apparently will be absolutely NO consequence.... BW took the ***** way out and completely neutered a major choice of DAO because it was the safe (and inherently uninteresting choice)...
aka you choose to kill your warden for abosultely no reason what-so-ever. We'll pretend its a major decision, but it has absolutely no 'payoff' because we, as devs, are total weasles. BUT, you should care about future major choices, because we will do those justice.... seriously
#no_reason_to_care_about_any_choice_in_a_BW_game_again.
Some of them are just disturbed to use childbirth as currency, is not this a reason enough valid to skip the ritual?
Yes it is.
But I have seen videos on Youtube where there was no Kieran and at the end, Flemeth is still shown putting some bluish thing inside the Eluvian. When I first saw that scene in my playthrough, I didn't even think she was putting something in. To me, it looked like she was testing to see if it was working, and was about to go through, then her old friend showed up. Now everyone has these ideas that she put something inside, and watching the scene again, yeah, it looks that way. But if she does that regardless of whether the DR was done, then what does this mean? It can't be the Old God soul she put through, because what if the DR was not done. I have seen some people speculate that she put Mythal's soul in the Eluvian to protect it from Solas. I think Solas absorbed Flemeth because of the evil look on his face, and the fact he says that the people need him, so it sounds like he's planning something. I don't think he came there with the intention to absorb Flemeth, but at the moment he was the most desperate and saw opportunity so he took it. Honestly, I hated seeing Morrigan again and especially hated seeing Kieran. I hope that with the OGS being gone now, it means that these two won't show up again, or at least not any time soon. I'm also glad the OGB was put to rest. I always laughed in people's faces when they brought that up, that it would be some big event. I knew it would boil down to nothing. Thank the Maker.
In this video, at 22:46 it shows Morrigan alone, then cuts to the post-credits epilogue.
Also, people say that Solas glows with Flemeth's eyes. But I don't ever remember Flemeth's eyes glowing in any of her appearances. Anyone know where it happens?
They glow when Flemeth takes control of the PC or Morrigan when Morrigan/PC attempts to attack Flemeth. See here.
Aside from the fact that the warden is not dead at all in DAA............
power of the awesomeness or of the import if you prefer..., the keep said the contrary but who knows where is the truth....
Some of them are just disturbed to use childbirth as currency, is not this a reason enough valid to skip the ritual? And frankly i care nothing if some .das file (my savegame) have one warden dead....(Loghain)
Anyway is good that they have neutralized the choice, if the DR will have a good outcome, the players who have performed the US,redemption or warden commander endings will be pissed off, if DR has bad outcome then the players who had performed the ritual will be pissed off.....
This was my initial thought, they'd keep stringing us along to avoid annoying one camp or another. But it's not equal both sides.If the ritual had a degree of a bad outcome, then we could still argue whether it was worth it to save a life, It doesn't have to be catastrophic, just enough for the decision to remain grey. A shiny good outcome and there's nothing to discuss.
The US is a cliché if some wish to call it such, I'd prefer to call it more of an archetype, as human beings have been telling variations on the sacrifice theme for millennia - why? Because it has a powerful resonance and people drawn to it as a satisfying story. If they mean to go against this form and de-construct it that's up to the writers but they should consider carefully. Some players will feel unsatisfied. There's a reason some narrative forms endure. As for clichés, so is "save the world from a dark force". Not to mention the "happy ever after" that the DR now affords.
Yes, it will remain a valid choice not to take the ritual if you roleplay, but if we all stuck just to that then we'd have no interest in the story arc and why would we buy sequels? Neither should roleplaying be used as an excuse to cover up bad writing. The impression I get from the ogb scenario is of one of those TV serials before writers discovered the story arc that despite what profound developments and cliff hangers they would neatly but often so unconvincingly dispose of these developments and "reset" at the end, or hand wave away a cliffhanger in the first minutes of the next episode or series. Would anyone call this good writing these days?
OK it's a game, not a TV series, the decision has to be neutralised eventually given the medium, but I no longer agree that they couldn't done something more with it. After all, not choosing the ritual had some pretty important consequences (character death) whether or not to save Amaranthine had pretty major implications for those living there. But the plot of following games weren't completely derailed as a result of having those choices. A decision can have outcomes for the people involved without having major plot outcomes. More difficult with the ogb, but it could have been done.
It could have remained grey by using the child to tell a cautionary Frankensteinen/Promethean short tale about the implications of messing with souls on a personal level, but from what I understand they haven't even done that. As someone said further up the thread, they hit the reset button.
Who would have thought such a dark choice would be so sanitised? It's ironic that in the DAO forum there is a thread discussing whether the writers regretted the "everybody lives" decision in Redcliffe, given that it seems such a reckless course. Well clearly they don't, because the DR is in danger of being the same thing except profoundly and monumentally huge.
Though it does go against the whole "is as much me as my heart is part of me" bit by Flemeth.
I mean Keiran had the OG soul in him since before he was even a fetus it was part of his creation from the very moment, the act that lead to his existence.
He's been shaped by it since before he was even alive.
If anybody could claim to be one and the same or innately/intimately connected with an OG soul its him but Flemeth gets him to give it to her with no apparent effort or damage on his part.
Flemeth didn't even get connected with mythal and only a "wisp of her" at that until her adulthood.
Though it would be ironic if the US turns out to be a worse choice because the Warden would have made things better if they stayed alive, regardless of morality.
Guest_Challenge Everything_*
I think that the reason knew her son was destined for something is because Flemeth wanted him. She didn't know what he was destined for, but she knew it was something. She had to prepare him for whatever was to come. It's like she said, even she had to admit that she doesn't know all that's going on.
Take THAT, Morrigan! No more of your "I'm omnipotent and mysterious" bull****!
This... I think they had a plan for the OGB, but then that changed when the franchises lead designer changed (#not for the better). It could NOT be a world changing occurrence, because it was an option, but those who choose it should have had a payoff that matter, good or BAD. Looking back on it, those whose canon warden performed the Ultimate Sacrifice because they didn't trust Morrigan or feared the consequence of making the deal with the devil to save themselves... should be royally pissed off. There apparently will be absolutely NO consequence.... BW took the ***** way out and completely neutered a major choice of DAO because it was the safe (and inherently uninteresting choice)...
aka you choose to kill your warden for abosultely no reason what-so-ever. We'll pretend its a major decision, but it has absolutely no 'payoff' because we, as devs, are total weasles. BUT, you should care about future major choices, because we will do those justice.... seriously
#no_reason_to_care_about_any_choice_in_a_BW_game_again.
They didn't have a plan for it, because among other things it would be as much if not moreso the lead writer/character writer involved in this plot that the designer of the game. If you actually want to talk about "the plan", then you can't do it without reference to the original plan before the DR which was to find the magical GW-AD killing sword. That was the plan, and it wasn't a particularly good one. People are super into the DR, but there's no suggestion it was ever going to matter.
The US was always stupid. Every reason in its favour was essentially spite and mistrust. The lights were flashing that as hard as possible at the time. Even if Morrigan was lying to you, it was still the better option because you'd be no worse off that you were before.
My Opinion? that's the last you will hear of it, this is the prime example of the culmination of your work through BioWare games IE nothing, this is why BioWare needs to get rid of save import of any kind or at the least dramatically reduce the points of interest (for lack of better words) that get carried over to a more manageable lvl so they can dramatically improve the consequence of choice through a series
My Opinion? that's the last you will hear of it, this is the prime example of the culmination of your work through BioWare games IE nothing, this is why BioWare needs to get rid of save import of any kind or at the least dramatically reduce the points of interest (for lack of better words) that get carried over to a more manageable lvl so they can dramatically improve the consequence of choice through a series
Don't buy it. We don't know what Flemeth wants with the soul. Maybe we won't hear from Kieran himself as prominently but the arc with the Arch demons soul is not over.
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