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[Geth Supremacy]

I haven't paid much attention into the story line of DAI, but I've learned a common theme is to play something up majorly and then it trails off into a fizz....Collector base in ME2 comes to mind, but thats one of many...its just a common thing.  At least the way I see it.

[In Exile]

I haven't paid much attention into the story line of DAI, but I've learned a common theme is to play something up majorly and then it trails off into a fizz....Collector base in ME2 comes to mind, but thats one of many...its just a common thing.  At least the way I see it.

 

But it's not Bioware who does the hyping, at least with the DR. It's the fans. 

[berelinde]

Honestly, I'm just as glad the OGB was not a big deal in DAI. Yeah, my Warden had Alistair do the DR because otherwise, one of them would have died, but it still sucked. And I really, really did not need to see what was going on in that bedroom at the time. And I realize that Morrigan was doing it (at least in part) because she wanted to save her friend, the Warden, but it reeked of "We never thought anybody would actually play a female protagonist, so we don't care how much it sucks." Thank the Maker DAO was modable.

 

So yeah, I'm just as happy it came to nothing in the end.

[In Exile]

Honestly, I'm just as glad the OGB was not a big deal in DAI. Yeah, my Warden had Alistair do the DR because otherwise, one of them would have died, but it still sucked. And I really, really did not need to see what was going on in that bedroom at the time. And I realize that Morrigan was doing it (at least in part) because she wanted to save her friend, the Warden, but it reeked of "We never thought anybody would actually play a female protagonist, so we don't care how much it sucks." Thank the Maker DAO was modable.

So yeah, I'm just as happy it came to nothing in the end.

Actually they originally had a lesbian baby but they dropped it because they thought it was too convoluted. They were always going to involve both genders, though I suppose some people would take this as proof that it was still written from a male POV.

[Unpleasant Implications]

Like with any Bioware game with choice, any choice that could drastically effect the save state in interesting ways will be subdued.

[berelinde]

Actually they originally had a lesbian baby but they dropped it because they thought it was too convoluted. They were always going to involve both genders, though I suppose some people would take this as proof that it was still written from a male POV.

Yeah, I know. Convoluted as it was, I probably would have preferred it (although I'm self-aware enough to recognize that I would still have laughed at the ridiculousness of it).

 

My takeaway from it was that, for male Wardens, especially those who romanced Morrigan, Kieran was the silver lining, the one good thing that came of a bad situation. For (my) female protagonists who romanced Alistair, he's a necessary evil. For (my) female protagonists who romanced Zevran, he's a matter of indifference.

 

The alternative Dark Ritual mod makes everything better. That's what the scene should have been for the female Warden all along.

[Das Tentakel]

What I'm not ok with is this: Bioware seems done with going against the grain. Parts of DAI appear like an attempt to clean up the legacy of DAO so that they can now tell more mainstream stories without those pesky nonstandard elements from DAO getting in the way. We'll never get a character as interesting as Morrigan again, we'll never get something like the Dark Ritual again, that age has passed. That's why as much as I love DAI for what it does well, I feel that something irreplaceable has been lost. Lost innocence, lost inspiration, maybe, I don't know. The DA team is pulled and pushed in too many directions by circumstances beyond their control. and everything they write has to be considered from too many viewpoints and thus, the eventual story will inevitably lose impact.
 
I wonder if it's still possible for them to tell the story they want to tell. I also wonder how that story has changed over time.

 
I think it’s not so much ‘lost innocence’ as that the IP has no creative or narrative autonomy, and probably never had. By that I mean that because Dragon Age is EA BioWare’s own IP, it greatly expands the ability and temptation for anyone with any influence and the necessary motivation to pull at it. I distinctly remember that Gaider occasionally implicated that he and the rest of the writing team did not have as much influence over Dragon Age as some (loudly complaining) fans seemed to believe.
 
I think this is a common problem when a studio has full creative control over its IP’s. Unless it’s in good hands and the people in charge let the creative team do its thing (or have a deft hand and good instincts when and if they exert influence) it’s going to be screwed over sooner or later. I can’t speak for anybody else, but DA:O (and to a lesser extent Mass Effect), even before DA2, gave me a strong ‘disposable IP’ vibe from the beginning, meaning it gave me a feeling of ‘let’s see if this one flies and if so, then we maybe start in earnest. Or not’.

[line_genrou]

 
I think it’s not so much ‘lost innocence’ as that the IP has no creative or narrative autonomy, and probably never had. By that I mean that because Dragon Age is EA BioWare’s own IP, it greatly expands the ability and temptation for anyone with any influence and the necessary motivation to pull at it. I distinctly remember that Gaider occasionally implicated that he and the rest of the writing team did not have as much influence over Dragon Age as some (loudly complaining) fans seemed to believe.
 
I think this is a common problem when a studio has full creative control over its IP’s. Unless it’s in good hands and the people in charge let the creative team do its thing (or have a deft hand and good instincts when and if they exert influence) it’s going to be screwed over sooner or later. I can’t speak for anybody else, but DA:O (and to a lesser extent Mass Effect), even before DA2, gave me a strong ‘disposable IP’ vibe from the beginning, meaning it gave me a feeling of ‘let’s see if this one flies and if so, then we maybe start in earnest. Or not’.

 

Well what I know is that a lot of key people involved in DAO and the first two ME left the team, so of course I think that has an impact in the final product

Brent Knowles said he left because of the change in direction DA2 had

[MrMrPendragon]

I think we should've expected this.

 

As soon as we realized this OGB thing couldn't exist across all world states, it was pretty much labelled "non-essential", meaning it would never amount to anything we'd hope for.

 

When I first made the decision, I did it because not only did I want to live, but I also wanted to explore more about the Old Gods, and how exactly the whole child-soul dynamic would work. I guess all it ever lead up to was "what jar am I suppose to use for this Old God soul?"

[Elhanan]

Considering the linage, as well as adopted spirit, I would not say nothing. Plus, Grandma and her friends might take offense....

[LadyLaLa]

Well, Morrigan did seem angry that Flemeth showed up to "take" Kieran, so my best guess is that she was unaware that the Old God's soul could be separated from Kieran. It seems she may have just assumed that Kieran would be needed in person, as opposed to Flemeth just stopping by and removing it easily

[In Exile]

Yeah, I know. Convoluted as it was, I probably would have preferred it (although I'm self-aware enough to recognize that I would still have laughed at the ridiculousness of it).

 

My takeaway from it was that, for male Wardens, especially those who romanced Morrigan, Kieran was the silver lining, the one good thing that came of a bad situation. For (my) female protagonists who romanced Alistair, he's a necessary evil. For (my) female protagonists who romanced Zevran, he's a matter of indifference.

 

The alternative Dark Ritual mod makes everything better. That's what the scene should have been for the female Warden all along.

 

Having kids is not necessarily a good thing. I mean, it is if you value kids, but if not, then you're essentially being forced to choose between death and fathering a child. 

[MACharlie1]

Well, Morrigan did seem angry that Flemeth showed up to "take" Kieran, so my best guess is that she was unaware that the Old God's soul could be separated from Kieran. It seems she may have just assumed that Kieran would be needed in person, as opposed to Flemeth just stopping by and removing it easily

To be fair to Morrigan, Flemeth wasn't exactly making that clear. Hence Flemeths deal: let me have the boy and you'll never hear from me again.

Only after Morrigan called her out on being a bad mom did she change her tune.

[Das Tentakel]

Well what I know is that a lot of key people involved in DAO and the first two ME left the team, so of course I think that has an impact in the final product

Brent Knowles said he left because of the change in direction DA2 had

 

Well, I always took that more as indicating the type of game, rather than the type of story or the evolution of the setting.

The departure of people who were intimately involved in creating the IP is, at least potentially, a big minus (for instance, the dynamic within the group will often change, not always for the better).

 

It would be interesting to know what kind of expectations people at EA and BioWare had of DA:O. Bio's first attempt to create their own setting, Jade Empire, had not been particularly succesful and to be honest, while both DA and ME universes are pretty generic settings within the broader genres of pseudo-Tolkienian fantasy and space opera, ME in my view was, at least initially, far more interesting compared to DA's painful blandness.

Maybe they didn't expect too much of it? Wouldn't have been the first time with a BioWare fantasy game; back in the day people at Black Isle and Interplay apparently didn't expect too much of Baldur's Gate, if I can believe the interview with Feargus Urquhart (Matt Chat 255, I think, look it up on Youtube).

 

Anyway, all water under the bridge now.

[Lebanese Dude]

I have a feeling the OGB choice will play a part in the future, in a manner similar to the ME3 Geth-Quarian outcome partly relying on choices made in previous games.

[mbeckham]

It's less problematic for me to use the Loghain way out.

that always felt like meta gaming to me, My warden doesn't know about the sacrifice at that point, and Riordan's we've hired asshats before speech really didn't compel me, plus doesn't really solve the problem of preserving a ship with Alistaire.  

[DinkyD]

But it's not Bioware who does the hyping, at least with the DR. It's the fans. 

 

No. It's bioware who did the hyping  due to the prominence they gave it in the finale of their game. In a game filled with difficult decisions, it is the final and climatic decision called "dark" for good reason. It's a decision that many took and others chose to kill their own characters because of a situation, through extensive foreshadowing, lore, and character development in the game that made it important. You can't blame the fans for reading so much into it; they were compelled to by the writing. No, sorry, the developers are completely responsible because they built it up as such.

[myahele]

We don't know what the Old God's are; luckily we have 2 more left, so whatever the importance are then we can extrapolate it to the OGB soul.

 

Though, I think it's safe to say that baby Urthemiel is somewhere safe where he can slowly grow into what he once was, maybe better since this is a "rebirth"

[Aren]

that always felt like meta gaming to me, My warden doesn't know about the sacrifice at that point, and Riordan's we've hired asshats before speech really didn't compel me, plus doesn't really solve the problem of preserving a ship with Alistaire.  

copy paste from another Thread

 

This came up in one of the threads earlier - filed under stupid within the game for how the landsmeet goes down and the fact that riordan is standing in eamon's house all that time during the denerim quests and never bothers to mention that very important bit about killing the archdemon and dying. Sort of a tie in to the dark ritual. Actually I was the one who brought it up.

 

All of the heated debate about loghain could be avoided for the most part if the game didn't insist on either or and if it gave you a persuade option to chill alistair and convince him that we can throw him at the archdemon.... of course, at that point we STILL don't know that whoever kills it dies which would have really changed the stupid of the landsmeet from average stupid to unquantifiable stupid had we known and not gotten the option because everyone who doesn't like him would think - yes, demon cookie! He should be the demon cookie and we get to live and don't have to give morrigan that freaky old god baby chew toy.  

 

Sorry, I'm being silly. The whole thing just has me amused now as it's just so... absurd.

[blahblahblah]

opy paste from another Thread

 

This came up in one of the threads earlier - filed under stupid within the game for how the landsmeet goes down and the fact that riordan is standing in eamon's house all that time during the denerim quests and never bothers to mention that very important bit about killing the archdemon and dying. Sort of a tie in to the dark ritual. Actually I was the one who brought it up.

 

All of the heated debate about loghain could be avoided for the most part if the game didn't insist on either or and if it gave you a persuade option to chill alistair and convince him that we can throw him at the archdemon.... of course, at that point we STILL don't know that whoever kills it dies which would have really changed the stupid of the landsmeet from average stupid to unquantifiable stupid had we known and not gotten the option because everyone who doesn't like him would think - yes, demon cookie! He should be the demon cookie and we get to live and don't have to give morrigan that freaky old god baby chew toy.  

 

Sorry, I'm being silly. The whole thing just has me amused now as it's just so... absurd.

Anything of this will not happened if and only Duncan never treat his recruits as children. He never tell to Alistair or you on how the Archdemon can be killed. If you want to blame anyone then blame Duncan. Your post is totally absurd.

[In Exile]

No. It's bioware who did the hyping due to the prominence they gave it in the finale of their game. In a game filled with difficult decisions, it is the final and climatic decision called "dark" for good reason. It's a decision that many took and others chose to kill their own characters because of a situation, through extensive foreshadowing, lore, and character development in the game that made it important. You can't blame the fans for reading so much into it; they were compelled to by the writing. No, sorry, the developers are completely responsible because they built it up as such.

I can absolutely blame the fans. There was nothing particularly noteworthy about the offer beyond the suspicious circumstances sorrounding its offer. From a metagame perspective it was obviously and unequivocally the best choice.

[Vilegrim]

Well, Morrigan did seem angry that Flemeth showed up to "take" Kieran, so my best guess is that she was unaware that the Old God's soul could be separated from Kieran. It seems she may have just assumed that Kieran would be needed in person, as opposed to Flemeth just stopping by and removing it easily

Which was a massive cop out.

[DinkyD]

 

Alright then seems legit, however whats the point to take the Sacrifice path on DAO? In terms of contents you are penalized  you can loose the Main warden for Awakening and all DlC (do not consider a false resurrection)  thats a Big Sacrifice, or Loghain for Awakening cameos and DAI , or Alistair for DAA,DAII and DAI, if a bad outcome comes from the ritual can be justified, because actually whoever avoid that path have paid an high price for long term benefit. 

So basically bioware said whoever avoid the ritual chose poorly because we cannot hurt the feelings of the players, now if you well allow me may i ask  , what kind of logic is that?

 

 

Yep, I think they just wanted to please Morrigan romancers who wanted to play family and cast off the wider, branching story arc. Thus the creation of this ridiculous win/win scenario on this scale.

 

In terms of story, It's rare in a narrative to set up something like the Sacrifice without it being ridiculously melodramatic and contrived, and I think they managed to do that in DAO, it was quite an achievement. Then what do they do? Throw it away like it's as important as yesterday's rubbish.

 

 

While the story of DA2 was obviously written with DA:I in mind, DA:O seems to have been written as a stand-alone game. This is obvious when you see that all the clumsy story modifications (Leliana coming back from the dead if you killed her, Flemeth suddenly being WAY more than an old witch and suddenly not interested in killing Morrigan, the kid -if he was born- not being important anymore...) are related to decisions made in the first game.

 

THIS. That's increasingly how I see it - not necessarily because of all the points you touch on but I broadly agree because I actually think the devs regret DAO, evidenced by the numerous retcons, including the setting up as the ritual as a climatic life and death choice presented as if it mattered; I think now they just wish they could brush it all under the rug and forget about it. However they'll struggle, because people still love it, including people like me who didn't come to until 4 years after it was released. The impression I get of what they have done with the ogb and its soul is that is so unimaginative and contrived (they can do contrived it seems) it's beyond parody. Maybe it is a parody, maybe it's deliberate, it's almost like they are trying to distract us from and ultimately erase what was good about DAO so much we'll forget about it.

 

I sort of, well, consider DAO pretty much "non cannon". A least then it makes sense, and the writing remains good.

[Fast Jimmy]

But it's not Bioware who does the hyping, at least with the DR. It's the fans.

I disagree. Morrigan, as a character written by Bioware, provides insane amounts of tantalizing and purposefully foreshadowing-esque lines about the child prior to the DR. Post-game, Bioware didn't wave the flag of saying "this choice will change the world!" but their character sure did.

Another instance of Save Import buyer's remorse.

[Fast Jimmy]

Which was a massive cop out.

Agreed.