411 réponses à ce sujet

[RVallant]

This is to show that they don't plan out these things are long story ideas. What was a key point for Morrigan and potentially The Warden's story is just a passing moment in DA:I, it is like this because it's optional. You do it or you don't. A lot of decisions in DA:I are options of Yes or No, the next game could just 10 years with many endings resolved. Keiran then 20, Connor 30, Feynriel 35. All perfect timing to be involved in a story but for the decisions made changed/ready for a new storyline. If they are alive.

 

I mean, they wouldn't base an entire plot on the soul because for some people's games it didn't happen, so therefore would make no sense.

 

Given how they promoted Morrigan and the DLC based around her the feeling back then was the story was being shoehorned into the no-sacrifice-god-baby plotline. Plenty of people didn't like it, mostly those who did the sacrifice ending.

 

Curiously, maybe it's confirmation bias on my part but I've noticed in DAI topics most people seem to have done the Morrigan-baby crap, which leads me to believe most sacrifice warden players gave up on the plot and decided not to re-invest in DA. Either that or they're content to be quiet.

 

Anyway, the Old God soul is likely to be an irrelevant point regardless of if the baby survived or not just because it wouldn't be feasible to include.

[DinkyD]

To succeed with the US you have to kill the archdemon. It commands an unstoppable army of monsters who poison everything by existing near it. To be afraid of the DR you have to think that Morrigan will create something WORSE. So something that in the form of a person is MORE threatening than a dragon and an unstoppable army that has near infinite numbers. That's ridiculous.

 

It's not a logical either/or. It's not the baby or the blight. Why does it have to be worse? It just needs to be bad enough to be rejected. The US prevents both.

 

But on that note, mere mortals know how to stop a tainted old god. They don't know how to stop an untainted one. Whatever comes of it may be more subtle, but it could prove less tractable and ultimately prove more world changing because of it.

 

Who am I to put a god over men to save my own skin?

 

And could we please, please stop saying that the outcome of the ritual can not matter because it's optional and cannot be part of the plot? It's the same as every other outcome in DAO in being "optional". But that way, way misses the point. Saving Redcliffe village is optional. Killing the Dalish is optional. Preserving the anvil is optional.. I could go on and on . But these were still life or death situations for those caught up in them. They matter morally and narratively. You have to be pretty cold blooded to say that killing the Dalish tribe for example "doesn't matter".  People lived or died, or may face curse or slavery, as part of the decisions you made.They are meaningful to the player.  But it seems that the existence of the ogb may have no impact and that's what's ridiculous. (compare to preserving the anvil) Who's even been mildly inconvenienced? That's my problem.

 

As an aside, I do wonder why people fixate on the the whole "coercing Alistair to have sex with Morrigan" as being the morally objectionable part of the ritual itself. The really immoral part is that you are asking him to conceive a child specifically to be the subject of Morrigan's blood magic and to be interferred with on the level of its very essence. Using Alistair is one thing, he's and adult and can say no. Using his non consenting child in such a profound and dangerous manner is very much another. Of course, fathering it yourself is no better, but asking Alistair to do it means that he has to share the moral burden of what he might have done to his own child. (assuming you don't lie to him. And that of course, is one of the savage ironies of the ritual, in that you turn Alistair into a far, far worse father than Maric was to him - haha)

[Shahadem]

 

But on that note, mere mortals know how to stop a tainted old god. They don't know how to stop an untainted one. Whatever comes of it may be more subtle, but it could prove less tractable and ultimately prove more world changing because of it.

 

 

Sure they do. Just bash it with sticks until it stops moving, just like every single other enemy in the game.

[Aren]

It's not a logical either/or. It's not the baby or the blight. Why does it have to be worse? It just needs to be bad enough to be rejected. The US prevents both.

 

But on that note, mere mortals know how to stop a tainted old god. They don't know how to stop an untainted one. Whatever comes of it may be more subtle, but it could prove less tractable and ultimately prove more world changing because of it.

 

Who am I to put a god over men to save my own skin?

 

And could we please, please stop saying that the outcome of the ritual can not matter because it's optional and cannot be part of the plot? It's the same as every other outcome in DAO in being "optional". But that way, way misses the point. Saving Redcliffe village is optional. Killing the Dalish is optional. Preserving the anvil is optional.. I could go on and on . But these were still life or death situations for those caught up in them. They matter morally and narratively. You have to be pretty cold blooded to say that killing the Dalish tribe for example "doesn't matter".  People lived or died, or may face curse or slavery, as part of the decisions you made.They are meaningful to the player.  But it seems that the existence of the ogb may have no impact and that's what's ridiculous. (compare to preserving the anvil) Who's even been mildly inconvenienced? That's my problem.

 

As an aside, I do wonder why people fixate on the the whole "coercing Alistair to have sex with Morrigan" as being the morally objectionable part of the ritual itself. The really immoral part is that you are asking him to conceive a child specifically to be the subject of Morrigan's blood magic and to be interferred with on the level of its very essence. Using Alistair is one thing, he's and adult and can say no. Using his non consenting child in such a profound and dangerous manner is very much another. Of course, fathering it yourself is no better, but asking Alistair to do it means that he has to share the moral burden of what he might have done to his own child. (assuming you don't lie to him. And that of course, is one of the savage ironies of the ritual, in that you turn Alistair into a far, far worse father than Maric was to him - haha)

I agree.

Many DR runners such as "in Exile" belive that their choice is right and whoever avoid that path follow the route of  wonky logic and mistrust.

It matters not if i do not want to persuade a good Friend like Alistair in doing a child a CHILD, when he doesn't want to, or Worse force Loghain  to make sex when he has bad memories of his own mother being raped by the Orlesians.

Is really morally questionable to allow to an outside being to enter into another innocent Host just for Morrigan's selfish Desire.

OGB Kieran is pretty much like Flemeth a mortal who share his body with an ancient being "unlike Flemeth however he did not choose" ,his behaviour is different is mind is different, he is forced to be someone else other than himself like Flemeth was changed by Mythal and her desire of revenge to be forever someone else, is this good? Is good to alter the free will of someone for the sake of Power?  

OGB Kieran is  different from Human Kieran.

IS good to preserve a soul that is capable if corrupted to control an entire horde of Darkspawn ? Underestimate the power of an Old God soul just because is not an Archedemon is wonky  logic.

Player like me who have rejected the ritual have already payed the price of DAO stupid Finale, because in order to avoid something that is repulsive and evil to my eyes i must sacrifice someone , and i don't like to sacrifice a Warden's soul EVEN the one of LOGHAIN, but to me is a better option than allow an innocent to be changed by another  Being no matter how special the being is.

[Sotaklas]

About the whole Dark ritual and god child thing, i am just happy they actually handled it really well, i was afraid they will just scrap the whole thing, but they didn't.

[Handsome Jack]

I don't get how Flemeth was strong enough to actively remove an Old God's influence/essence from something.

 

She's powerful but Origins made it pretty clear she's completely out of the Archdemons' league.

[Arakiel12409]

 

She's powerful but Origins made it pretty clear she's completely out of the Archdemons' league.

From an archdemon, yes, but an uncorrupted Old God is another matter. I suspect that this has to do with the Taint and that she fears that she could become infected by it.

[DarkKnightHolmes]

It's pretty obvious Bioware didn't think ahead when they made the Dark Ritual idea up. They just thought it would be cool in DAO to end with a mystery cliff hanger like ending for sequel bait but never bothered to think much of it.

 

Oh well, Solas is probably going to use that OGB for something....... hopefully.

[CronoDragoon]

It got the attention in DA: I that it deserved. It was one way out of several to resolve the dilemma of one game in a series.

[PsychoBlonde]

Welcome to the differences between media with branching narratives and ones with a single story arc. If the DA franchise were confined to novels or movies or even linear action/adventure games, the OGB likely would have developed into something with much more significance. But because his existence depends on choices the player has made, his impact in the story has to be relegated to something relatively inconsequential. There's something rather ironic in the fact that more choices lead to less freedom on the devs' part to craft a story along traditional paths.

 

That's one of the unique hurdles RPGs face. On one hand, players want to feel like they're affecting the world in a meaningful way. On the other, there are only so many branches the story can take moving forward before it becomes a logistical nightmare to code and create. People have complained recently about DA2 and DAI feeling more limited in the choices you can make, but if you think about it, by restricting the outcome of the story, there's a slightly greater chance that the choices and actions you do get to make will have a deeper impact later on.

 

 

Yep.  The real challenge of branching choices is talking up the consequences on an appropriate level so that your storytelling matches your story.  The problem with the OGB is that they *talked it up* as if it were a big screaming deal while simultaneously making it impossible for it to BE a big screaming deal.

 

The games have been full of that from the get-go, though.  How many times do people threaten to get you and your little dog too or do people get catastrophically upset about a decision you made that has absolutely no impact going forward?  MANY.  Because they write for dramatic value and plan for mechanical outcomes.  You need to write with the mechanical outcome in mind and curb the urge to be dramatic simply for the sake of being dramatic.  Or, if you want to be dramatic, damn well make your situation justify it.

[PsychoBlonde]

 

Player like me who have rejected the ritual have already payed the price of DAO stupid Finale, because in order to avoid something that is repulsive and evil to my eyes i must sacrifice someone , and i don't like to sacrifice a Warden's soul EVEN the one of LOGHAIN, but to me is a better option than allow an innocent to be changed by another  Being no matter how special the being is.

 

 

Just as an aside, you realize that the logical conclusion of this stance is that it's completely evil and repulsive for anyone to have children, ever.  Because who KNOWS what you might be inflicting on that "innocent".  Genetic disease, poor parenting, a harsh, dark world . . . and, inevitably, death.

 

Everyone who has ever existed has suffered and been changed by the influence of others.  So the only possible conclusion is that having children AT ALL is an act of supreme evil.

[Dai Grepher]

I think Morrigan never knew what the old god soul was for. She probably figured it would be a source of great magical power, or it would unlock ancient spells. So she planned to raise Kieran to use the power responsibly.

 

What Morrigan did not anticipate was that Flemeth would ever be able to track her and Kieran down to take the power for herself.

 

So that is what I think Morrigan thought of the soul's power.

 

What the soul will be used for by Mythal or Solas (if it even still exists), is anyone's guess. Some think the souls are keys to unlocking an eluvian that holds the old elven false gods. I think that theory is nonsense. I think Morrigan was guess right about the soul holding ancient knowledge and power. That's all it is. Whether that soul is sentient or not is unknown, but it still might have Urthemiel's consciousness. According to Morrigan the soul would be reborn via the Dark Ritual, so again, it's unknown.

 

In theory, whoever has the soul now should come back stronger than before. Like if Solas has it and he returns, he should have new powers. Same with Flemeth if she has it. Or maybe Mythal uses it. We did see a female float out of the Well of Sorrows and through the eluvian. So perhaps that what Flemeth was doing. Transfering the rest of Mythal's power through the eluvian to the main part of Mythal who is now in the Crossroads.

[Chiramu]

There is one big problem with this, what if you didn't get an OGB in your playthrough? 

 

I never saw this because I play female characters in Dragon Age and asking someone else to sleep with Morrigan is just too awkward. It's like the writers didn't even think that one through >.>, Loghain especially is one character who you cannot go up to and speak of "sleeping with Morrigan" casually, I don't think the words would even have left my mouth if I were asking him personally. I would be, "...Ah, ...*blush* um, ...Morrigan... it's okay, I'm sorry, nevermind!" And run away with tears in my eyes from the stress.

[megageeklizzy]

I saw no problem with it, personally.  "Hey, Alistair/Loghain, I need to talk to you.  Either one of us dies, or you can have sex with Morrigan.  What do you prefer?" I mean...it's a little awkward, yes, but I think that's the point.  Why would you not ask them to have sex with her if it meant neither of you had to die?

[Aren]

I don't get how Flemeth was strong enough to actively remove an Old God's influence/essence from something.

 

She's powerful but Origins made it pretty clear she's completely out of the Archdemons' league.

I believe that Flemeth did not do something to Kieran, I'm more willingly to believe that is the soul that has decided to willingly reach Flemeth, Urthemiel has never granted his power to Kieran, he has barely shared with him his knowledge, the only time that Kieran use the power of that Soul is when he try to reach Flemeth Probably commanded by Urthemiel who has somehow perceived Mythal..

 

I saw no problem with it, personally.  "Hey, Alistair/Loghain, I need to talk to you.  Either one of us dies, or you can have sex with Morrigan.  What do you prefer?" I mean...it's a little awkward, yes, but I think that's the point.  Why would you not ask them to have sex with her if it meant neither of you had to die?

The problem is not to ask to them to participate to the ritual, the problem is that they stated very clearly that they prefer to Die, maybe because they have their own personal trauma about it. 

Alistair was  abandoned by his father , he do not  want to repeat the same mistake of Marik or even worse and Loghain has is personal trauma for his mother.

Both of them see the Sacrifice as an Honorable route, they prefer to die instead to live in Regret.

[megageeklizzy]

I thought the "I'd rather die" was kind of an exaggeration made when it was not yet known that the ritual was a possibility.

[Toasted Llama]

'Scuse you.


The OGB was cute as f*ck.

[dantares83]

(1) They couldn't make an optional element plot-critical.

(2) They wouldn't make an element that made many people uncomfortable plot-critical in a good way.

 

So yeah, I'm disappointed, but I can live with the nullification, because it's almost a certainty that I would've hated any alternative. Bioware doesn't write controversy any more without resolving it in a conformist way. Which is, btw, what happened here. I'm only ok with it because it could've been worse.

 

i agree, some don't even have a OGB. so it is pointless to continue that part of the story as something major. They should have make it such that an OGB will be born no matter what.

 

E.g. even if u refuse the dark ritual, Morrigan will still do it with Alistair/Loghain (as in they volunteered because they really do not want u or anyone to die)

 

Edit: Bioware should have thought of the endings/full plot well before continuing. Unless they are very sure it is the end (like ME3 where all your choices should be taken into consideration) or they will just have one default ending (even if it meant hundreds of complaints) so that the storytelling will be better (e.g. DA2 ending (mage and templars will revolt no matter what u do and who u side with will try to kill u) and DAI ending (Solas leaving and absorbing Flemeth) ).

Modifié par dantares83, 09 avril 2015 - 01:02 .

[Karlone123]

The ODB is my Warden's son, and Hawke's cousin. No more is needed for me.

[Knight of Dane]

You could say that about the whole trilogy to be honest, its pretty bad, plot holes abound and full of dead discussions..

 

Maybe, my issue wasn't really the OGB as a plot hole though, but just that the majority of the fanbase either assumed it to be or wanted it to be canon. Now it's over with regardless.

[Chiramu]

  Why would you not ask them to have sex with her if it meant neither of you had to die?

 

Because of how awkward it gets with the responses. I would never be able to say any of the responses you are given for that conversation. I don't care if one of you has to die, those responses will not be able to pass through my lips. If I do pick them then I get completely alienated from my character too. 

[KaiserShep]

Maybe, my issue wasn't really the OGB as a plot hole though, but just that the majority of the fanbase either assumed it to be or wanted it to be canon. Now it's over with regardless.

 

I guess it's easy to forget that the default world state has a dead Warden by the end of Origins, making the dark ritual refused by default.

[Chuvvy]

After ME2, DA2, and ME3 you're really surprised that a choice didn't matter? BW should stop promising these branching choices, or implying choices will have big sweeping effects because they're clearly unwilling or more likely unable, to deliver.

 

What they should do is stick to have large scale changes within the single game. Then have smaller carry overs, EG Alistair as a warden, or Morrigan as a romance, for the following games. As it stands they're just disappointing people, and when I get to the well of sorrows in DAI they play it up like it's some big choice, but I know for a fact that it won't matter in any serious capacity by DA4.

[Lumix19]

After ME2, DA2, and ME3 you're really surprised that a choice didn't matter? BW should stop promising these branching choices, or implying choices will have big sweeping effects because they're clearly unwilling or more likely unable, to deliver.

 

What they should do is stick to have large scale changes within the single game. Then have smaller carry overs, EG Alistair as a warden, or Morrigan as a romance, for the following games. As it stands they're just disappointing people, and when I get to the well of sorrows in DAI they play it up like it's some big choice, but I know for a fact that it won't matter in any serious capacity by DA4.

Can I borrow that crystal ball of yours?

 

Seriously though I think this criticism is premature. We still have no idea the impact that the Old God Soul will have on Thedas. Nor can we say that the Well of Sorrows won't play a significant part in the future.

[Frybread76]

It is disappointing, but the OGB couldn't be a major factor in the narrative because the dark ritual was optional.

 

Even the existence of the OG soul is optional, since it would have had no vessel to inhabit if the Warden chose not to perform or allow the dark ritual.