411 réponses à ce sujet

[In Exile]

It's not a logical either/or. It's not the baby or the blight. Why does it have to be worse? It just needs to be bad enough to be rejected. The US prevents both.

But on that note, mere mortals know how to stop a tainted old god. They don't know how to stop an untainted one. Whatever comes of it may be more subtle, but it could prove less tractable and ultimately prove more world changing because of it.

Who am I to put a god over men to save my own skin?

And could we please, please stop saying that the outcome of the ritual can not matter because it's optional and cannot be part of the plot? It's the same as every other outcome in DAO in being "optional". But that way, way misses the point. Saving Redcliffe village is optional. Killing the Dalish is optional. Preserving the anvil is optional.. I could go on and on . But these were still life or death situations for those caught up in them. They matter morally and narratively. You have to be pretty cold blooded to say that killing the Dalish tribe for example "doesn't matter". People lived or died, or may face curse or slavery, as part of the decisions you made.They are meaningful to the player. But it seems that the existence of the ogb may have no impact and that's what's ridiculous. (compare to preserving the anvil) Who's even been mildly inconvenienced? That's my problem.

As an aside, I do wonder why people fixate on the the whole "coercing Alistair to have sex with Morrigan" as being the morally objectionable part of the ritual itself. The really immoral part is that you are asking him to conceive a child specifically to be the subject of Morrigan's blood magic and to be interferred with on the level of its very essence. Using Alistair is one thing, he's and adult and can say no. Using his non consenting child in such a profound and dangerous manner is very much another. Of course, fathering it yourself is no better, but asking Alistair to do it means that he has to share the moral burden of what he might have done to his own child. (assuming you don't lie to him. And that of course, is one of the savage ironies of the ritual, in that you turn Alistair into a far, far worse father than Maric was to him - haha)

There's absolutely no reason to think that the OGB would be more powerful than the AD. Even if somehow it were true that it would be more powerful we have the formula: throw some Blight in its face and stab it with a GW. Boom: problem solved. OGs are weak to the blight, even if we assume they would be purely malevolent and more powerful than the AD, which of course there is no evidence in support.

As to the point about conceiving the child being immoral, I can't see how that follows. The fact that you're having a child for some purpose beyond purely to have a child isn't immoral. Now you say it's different because being the subject of this ritual is notionally bad for the child. Morrigan says it won't be has at all. If you trust her there's no moral quandry. And if you don't trust her then you've got bigger moral issues than a potentially harmful ritual.

[In Exile]

I agree.
Many DR runners such as "in Exile" belive that their choice is right and whoever avoid that path follow the route of wonky logic and mistrust.
It matters not if i do not want to persuade a good Friend like Alistair in doing a child a CHILD, when he doesn't want to, or Worse force Loghain to make sex when he has bad memories of his own mother being raped by the Orlesians.
Is really morally questionable to allow to an outside being to enter into another innocent Host just for Morrigan's selfish Desire.
OGB Kieran is pretty much like Flemeth a mortal who share his body with an ancient being "unlike Flemeth however he did not choose" ,his behaviour is different is mind is different, he is forced to be someone else other than himself like Flemeth was changed by Mythal and her desire of revenge to be forever someone else, is this good? Is good to alter the free will of someone for the sake of Power?
OGB Kieran is different from Human Kieran.
IS good to preserve a soul that is capable if corrupted to control an entire horde of Darkspawn ? Underestimate the power of an Old God soul just because is not an Archedemon is wonky logic.
Player like me who have rejected the ritual have already payed the price of DAO stupid Finale, because in order to avoid something that is repulsive and evil to my eyes i must sacrifice someone , and i don't like to sacrifice a Warden's soul EVEN the one of LOGHAIN, but to me is a better option than allow an innocent to be changed by another Being no matter how special the being is.

There's absolutely no evidence there's anything being conceived to be affected in Thedas, now that we're just having an abortion debate by another name. Morrigan gets knocked up and then allows for the soul of the OG to enter into the nascent meatsuit you conceived. Thedas is notionally a universe where souls exist so the real moral question is whether that particular soul you've possibly created (assuming again since we're just having an abortion debate that souls exist at conception) is going to be harmed instead of benefiting greatly from being turned into a god.

And in this regard the moral question is no different from any time two people decide to conceive a child.

[justanotherusername]

I love Morrigan's mommy evolution, just wish you could have a female warden who died but Morrigan still gets to be a mom. The only way with a female warden is OGB. Years ago many of us thought maybe the baby could exist even without the warden or Alistair, because of Riordan and Morrigan both having unaccounted for time if you ****** her off and she leaves the party. I wish the Keep had that option... human child with Riordan. Could have been a neat way to show Morrigan's determination but also that some key part for the dark ritual gets fubared in her haste to adopt Plan C.

 

I might be mistaken since I have never done this, but can't you have Morrigan sleep with Alistair/Loghain and then not bring her to the final battle with the Archdemon?

[Chuvvy]

Can I borrow that crystal ball of yours?

 

Seriously though I think this criticism is premature. We still have no idea the impact that the Old God Soul will have on Thedas. Nor can we say that the Well of Sorrows won't play a significant part in the future.

 

Using past experiences to predict future events is pretty sound reasoning. Bioware having a choice be significantly important would be against type, I'm just going by what they have demonstrated over the past five years or so. It's possible they'll surprise me, but they have yet to.

[cronshaw]

I never understand why people get upset when their speculation doesn't become fact, or a storyteller doesn't divulge every single mystery at once. 

The fact that they get to make choices lulls people into believing they have some kind of creative agency in the series

when that agency is proven a mirage they get annoyed

[9TailsFox]

There is one big problem with this, what if you didn't get an OGB in your playthrough? 

 

I never saw this because I play female characters in Dragon Age and asking someone else to sleep with Morrigan is just too awkward. It's like the writers didn't even think that one through >.>, Loghain especially is one character who you cannot go up to and speak of "sleeping with Morrigan" casually, I don't think the words would even have left my mouth if I were asking him personally. I would be, "...Ah, ...*blush* um, ...Morrigan... it's okay, I'm sorry, nevermind!" And run away with tears in my eyes from the stress.

How is it hard? We have 2 wardens. Morrigan can save our life's if we give Morrigan baby. I don't want to die, do you? So have fun.

[Fireheart]

I might be mistaken since I have never done this, but can't you have Morrigan sleep with Alistair/Loghain and then not bring her to the final battle with the Archdemon?

Morrigan does not need to be in your party for the dark ritual to still take effect.

[Fireheart]

I love Morrigan's mommy evolution, just wish you could have a female warden who died but Morrigan still gets to be a mom. The only way with a female warden is OGB. Years ago many of us thought maybe the baby could exist even without the warden or Alistair, because of Riordan and Morrigan both having unaccounted for time if you ****** her off and she leaves the party. I wish the Keep had that option... human child with Riordan. Could have been a neat way to show Morrigan's determination but also that some key part for the dark ritual gets fubared in her haste to adopt Plan C.

this doesn't make sense. She tells you it wouldn't work if she did it with Riordan. Of course that wasn't an option in the Keep.

[Aren]

Just as an aside, you realize that the logical conclusion of this stance is that it's completely evil and repulsive for anyone to have children, ever.  Because who KNOWS what you might be inflicting on that "innocent".  Genetic disease, poor parenting, a harsh, dark world . . . and, inevitably, death.

 

Everyone who has ever existed has suffered and been changed by the influence of others.  So the only possible conclusion is that having children AT ALL is an act of supreme evil.

You realize that what you have wrote  has no sense?

To Change or grow up because of the world around us and our experiences when we possess our free will is different very different from changed because of  a parasite, because the Archdemon is basically this ,a parasite who use others bodies in order to survive and  acquire his immortality, he has lost his original body and now he needs others bodies in order to survive.

If those bodies are Darkspawn i don't care because they are empty  sack and their life means nothing,if however this host is a child well no thanks.

Do you realize what kind of Hypocrite is Morrigan in DAO?  First she ask to us to be protected from that  parasite of her mother,and since Flemeth has kept her secret i was forced to kill her despite the fact that she was my savior and benefactor,because i consider the whole possession of her daughters as incredibly evil.

After this Morrigan basically ask to do some that is very similar to what she have tried to escape from her mother an infiltration of another Being, but i guess that since the skin is the one of her own son and she is less involved is good for her, What an Hypocrite.

[Secret Rare]

Ya i never thought from that perspective, but i agree , problem of the ritual is the fact that the blood magic involved is used to alter the very essence of Kieran, the whole thing make me remember the famous villain of Dragon ball gt Series Baby who enter into a body and change the host's behaviour (unlike Urthemiel however he is more aggressive he became that host).

So for my Female Warden the side effect of the ritual to save a warden's life, was not worth it, considered that i have to persuade Alistair and allow Kieran to be "used" in that way, considered that i'm already tainted, no my Female warden do not want to do anything with that and it seems that the Writers have not thought from a female perspective when they wrote DAO finale.

[Secret Rare]

How is it hard? We have 2 wardens. Morrigan can save our life's if we give Morrigan baby. I don't want to die, do you? So have fun.

well Loghain can save my life as well too kind of Him to die for me  xD

[Aren]

 is going to be harmed instead of benefiting greatly from being turned into a god.

 

You are making the same mistake Morrigan did, where is the benefit of what you are talking about?

Because of her Ignorance and desire of power,because of her absolute lack of wisdom and understanding regarding the result of the process she was basically used by Mythal. 

The God is Urthemiel Not Kieran ,The godess is Mythal not Flemeth and Solas is the only true  Elven God who still has is Body ( despite her words No more separated than your chest from your heart,it was easy to separate Urthemiel from Kieran,and it was easy to separate Flemeth from Mythal)they are just Hosts and nothing more

The two beings are different however the owner of that body is Kieran this means that the Old god is an intruder who cannot be forced upon  his own will by Kieran,quite the contrary in fact as we can see in the fade Kieran want to go with Flemeth because in that moment he was influenced by Urthemiel,he was clearly confused and conflicted by his Duality, Meh he was deaf to the words of his own mother.

Kieran has never used his power without his consents,only when Mythal had called him the Old god used him to reach with an eluvian the fade,in that moment you can see with your own eyes that the extension of the ability of an Intelligent and not tainted Urthemiel are impressive and maybe equal to the full power of Fen harel, they do not need an armies Darkspawn to show of what they are capable of,otherwise they would not be worthy of their title of Old Gods,but since the Warden is a killing machine with no rivals (Archedemons,Old Magisters, Elven Godess,Paragons,High Dragon ecc., )some may believe that they are easy to defeat,no they are not is the Warden who is not "normal".

IS the Elven God who use the Mortal for his/her own purpose and not the contrary,the elven gods are born to rule not to be ruled or do you really think that Flemeth was  capable to manipulate Mythal?

Mythal seek Revenge and in order to do this she has used Flemeth forced her to live in that Wilds for centuries, waiting the Awakening of her old friend.

 

[ModernAcademic]

I think Thedas simply has no need for gods (or maybe that's the conclusion to which the creators of the franchise wish us to arrive).

 

Morrigan states the world would lose something precious if the Old Gods were gone. Would it? As far as we know, that's what her mother taught her.

If I were Mythal, I would also advocate in favour of my continuous survival.

 

Add to this Solas' own words about the Elven Gods: stupid, presumptuous people who were not even gods, who lived to war each other moved by jealousy and greed. As far as I'm concerned, it was the gods who brought the destruction of Arlathan with their divergences. No wonder Solas despises them so much. 

 

This is a very iconoclastic, atheist vision, but one that Bioware forces us to arrive to given what information is provided to us regarding the deities of Thedas.

[Elfyoth]

In Witch Hunt Morrigan ends up telling that she's going to prepare her son for what is to come, that change is coming to this world etc etc

The kid was meant for great things.

Was this all scrapped in DA:I?

If the OGB exists Flemeth removes his old god part (?? what was it really that she removed?) and he becomes a normal child. I thought something huge was going to happen to this child in the future. I didn't know his old god soul was removable...

 

So many questions with no answers.

But what was going to be the role of the OGB in the future? Before DA:I I thought he was meant to be a God or some sort of great leader when the change in the world took place.

Telling ya, t'was just for the sex. 

[robertthebard]

Because some people may have not had an OGB with Morrigan they decided to neuter the story. God forbid people make a decision that others might not make and have something meaningful come of it.

This is exactly right. Your choice to do the DR was no more important than my choice not to do it. Why, all of a sudden, should your choice carry more weight than mine? Tell me, were they supposed to write an entirely separate game just for those that did the DR? I realize you're feeling awfully important, and coming across fairly self righteous, so that must indeed be what you expected, right?

Evidently their metrics told them that significantly more people chose to opt out of the DR, or they'd have found a way to make it canon. Instead, we got Word of God, No DR, no OGB. Be mad, use up several boxes of Kleenex if you need to, but BW treated all of their customers the same. They included the OGB as an aside, for those that did the DR and left it out of the game for those of us that didn't. If we're going to be pointing fingers and claiming "preferential treatment", wouldn't it be because they had to write in a character that some people wouldn't have, so that the ones that did would see it?

[CronoDragoon]

In Witch Hunt Morrigan ends up telling that she's going to prepare her son for what is to come, that change is coming to this world etc etc
The kid was meant for great things.
Was this all scrapped in DA:I?
If the OGB exists Flemeth removes his old god part (?? what was it really that she removed?) and he becomes a normal child. I thought something huge was going to happen to this child in the future. I didn't know his old god soul was removable...

So many questions with no answers.
But what was going to be the role of the OGB in the future? Before DA:I I thought he was meant to be a God or some sort of great leader when the change in the world took place.

This is morrigan telling you what she believes. It's not a promise by Bioware, and just because morrigan believes something doesn't mean that is how things will go down.

[blahblahblah]

 

You realize that what you have wrote  has no sense?

To Change or grow up because of the world around us and our experiences when we possess our free will is different very different from changed because of  a parasite, because the Archdemon is basically this ,a parasite who use others bodies in order to survive and  acquire his immortality, he has lost his original body and now he needs others bodies in order to survive.

If those bodies are Darkspawn i don't care because they are empty  sack and their life means nothing,if however this host is a child well no thanks.

Do you realize what kind of Hypocrite is Morrigan in DAO?  First she ask to us to be protected from that  parasite of her mother,and since Flemeth has kept her secret i was forced to kill her despite the fact that she was my savior and benefactor,because i consider the whole possession of her daughters as incredibly evil.

After this Morrigan basically ask to do some that is very similar to what she have tried to escape from her mother an infiltration of another Being, but i guess that since the skin is the one of her own son and she is less involved is good for her, What an Hypocrite.

 

What you wrote is no different either, its filled with pure speculation rather than facts and hatred towards Morrigan. You're saying that conceiving an OGB is immoral but tbh its not.

[blahblahblah]

There's absolutely no evidence there's anything being conceived to be affected in Thedas, now that we're just having an abortion debate by another name. Morrigan gets knocked up and then allows for the soul of the OG to enter into the nascent meatsuit you conceived. Thedas is notionally a universe where souls exist so the real moral question is whether that particular soul you've possibly created (assuming again since we're just having an abortion debate that souls exist at conception) is going to be harmed instead of benefiting greatly from being turned into a god.

And in this regard the moral question is no different from any time two people decide to conceive a child.

Stop wasting time convincing others to do the DR. They will always defend their stance against it.

[Aren]

From my perspective, the further along we get in the series, the less likely there will be any meaningful OGB content. As time marches on, you're going to have an increasing number of players who have no context for what the DR and OGB even are. Sure, they'll see it in the Keep, but really, what kind of impact is that going to have? Even the name of the event works against it. If I'm a new player and I want my world to have had good guy heroes (or I'm BioWare savvy and know that Blue = Better in BW games), am I really going to pick something I have no investment in called the Dark Ritual? 

[blahblahblah]

From my perspective, the further along we get in the series, the less likely there will be any meaningful OGB content. As time marches on, you're going to have an increasing number of players who have no context for what the DR and OGB even are. Sure, they'll see it in the Keep, but really, what kind of impact is that going to have? Even the name of the event works against it. If I'm a new player and I want my world to have had good guy heroes (or I'm BioWare savvy and know that Blue = Better in BW games), am I really going to pick something I have no investment in called the Dark Ritual? 

And especially the US ending. All the sacrifices the Warden done in Ferelden are all meant for nothing.

[Aren]

And especially the US ending. All the sacrifices the Warden done in Ferelden are all meant for nothing.

The US function is primarily to kill the Warden rather than the Archdemon to conclude the Hero's story arc in a self contained way for DAO,since the Hero cannot be present aside from little mentions that transform Him/her into a bioware character rather than your personal hero of DAO, which cease to exist in Witch Hunt.

This is the reason of why i prefer Character like Shepard who do not disappear like the Warden,or (you will see soon enough) the Inquisitor from the world.

What's the point to survive if you are destined to vanish against your will? 

At least with that Ending you know why you are disappeared from the world when Corypheus start his apocalyptic campaign.

[LOLandStuff]

Morrigan was duped by Flemeth. No surprise there.

[In Exile]

And especially the US ending. All the sacrifices the Warden done in Ferelden are all meant for nothing.

 

Bioware choices aren't mean to radically alter worldstates. They're meant to be RP options.

 

The DR is all about trusting Morrigan, and whether or not you're tempted by self-preservation, glory, or the (IMO insane) GW self-sacrifice ideals. 

[blahblahblah]

Bioware choices aren't mean to radically alter worldstates. They're meant to be RP options.
 
The DR is all about trusting Morrigan, and whether or not you're tempted by self-preservation, glory, or the (IMO insane) GW self-sacrifice ideals.

Agreed. Many people here took the illusion of choice seriously.

[TK514]

Putting aside Morrigan for a moment, it's also about not risking the lives of everyone in Denerim, if not beyond, by taking a risk on a completely out of left field, untested and undiscussed modification to what has worked to stop every other Blight in its tracks.

 

This is, by the way, a modification suggested by the same woman who wants you to murder her mother because she's not smart enough to properly interpret a stolen book.  It's a wonder she managed to get the DR right at all.  Flemeth must have used small words for that part.