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AI Tactics system turned me into a Despair demon


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#1
TurretSyndrome

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p20mjje.jpg

 

No Wait! Hear me out first.

 

First of all, let me be clear. This is not a rage thread but one made out of pure perplexity. The above is an obvious exaggeration yes, but my experience with the AI tactics today really reflects my state of mind during the gameplay.

 

So, Nightmare mode FF on, Adamant Fortress and the Fade. I haven't defeated the Aspect yet and I don't think I can because I started the entire mission at level 9 with randomly found gear(I barely even touched Hinterlands). Sadly, most of the difficulty was not because of the enemies and their "hardness" but because of how utterly incapable my party felt. This was the first time in a Dragon Age game where I knew I could do better but I couldn't because of the lack of options given to me regarding the AI. 

 

By default, party members always and I mean always follow the player, even in combat. Even the bloody tank! There was a fight before the Fade sequence. It was against the Wardens and a Pride demon. What made that fight annoying was the continuous Red Lyrium spit from Corypheus' dragon. What made it irritating was the fact that everytime Blackwall got hit by the spit while he was fighting the Pride demon, he tried to get around the AoE but instead of going back to the demon, he was following my controlled character around and brought the demon to me. 

 
I defeated the demon but I just kept wondering how less frustrating that fight would've been if I just had the real behaviors from DA:O and DA 2 like Aggressive or Tank or Ranged even. Especially Aggressive because the AI would ignore AoE effects.

 

Stroud and Hawke were of no use either because again, they were following me instead of just attacking the enemy and doing their thing. But the real kicker was when they drank four out of 8 potions in the Fade the moment I touched a supply cache. The f7ck? You guys aren't even remotely useful but you want our share?

 

So, what happened to the Tactics system? Why was it butchered like that? It was the one thing I loved about DA 2 over DA:O. Having the ability to set specific commands to AI party members for specific conditions was what allowed me to actually have fun in DA 2. That ability made the AI seem intelligent and allowed them to work with the player, and not force him to babysit them(unless they're a melee rogue).

 

I remember the time when I burst into laughter in the middle of the night when I saw Varric let loose his explosive arrow right into Fenris and the cluster of enemies he was surrounded by, only to see Fenris unharmed because that very moment he used his ability to block the damage and effects. That small tactic worked 90% of the time and brought a smile to my face everytime it happened. 

 

Then there was Merril who switched to Blood Magic when her mana hit 10% and deactivated it when her health hit 50%, with drinking a potion as a follow up because I allowed only her to drink potions at 50%. 

 

These are just small examples but they were really the ones that me revisit DA combat, let alone play at Nightmare. And this is coming from someone who plays RPGs for their stories on the lowest difficulty and dislikes min-maxing gear, crafting and all that.

 

The synergy between my characters in combat was so good that I even wanted a mod that would allow me to have all four members acting on Tactics alone that I set, with me occasionally dropping in to change something that wasn't working. I wanted it because they were so good when the right tactic combinations were set, even better than me because my reaction time was slower than the AI.

 

But now?

Blackwall: Hey player, I need a potion cause I was just standing there like an idiot without blocking or attacking the enemy. *gulp*(-1 potion)

Player: *switches to Blackwall, gets him to block*

Inquisitor: *wastes Barrier on random party member*

Player: Aw sh!t *switches back to Inquisitor*

Vivienne: I can't see. *moves really close to the enemy cause she can't target them and is about to die from the enemy's AoE*

Player: Crap! *switches to Vivenne and presses the area to move to*

Vivienne: *ignores player orders, continues to cast* Hey, don't break my streak. Let me cast this one spell and I'll move. *dies*

Blackwall: (-4 potions) I know you prefer that I use WarCry to generate guard but I like Shield Bash better.

 

*Player turns into Despair demon after the inevitable party wipe*

 

I can't trust them with potions, I can't trust them with abilities or even movement. Some people may think that I'm blowing this out of proportion but I'm not. Their small mistakes seem small when the difficulty isn't much. But when it's a real challenge, even their smallest mistakes can take significant effort on the player's side to make up for. The effort that should not be made in the first place.

 

I just can't trust AI with anything. And that's because there's no proper tools to control them with. Either you shut off AI in the most challenging scenarios which pretty much defeats the point of having these party members, or crawl through the battles not because the enemies are tough but because your party is so unreliable that you have to keep tabs on each and everyone of them, every bloody second. The slap in the face is when they ignore orders and continue to cast or act however they were about to, when player commands should've overwritten the actions.

 

Look, I understand Bioware had limited budget to work with but this is not something they should have ignored. Maybe it was hard for them with the engine change and everything but come on guys, you've had three years and you couldn't make the effort to continue the tradition of Tactics and reliable AI?

 

Combat is the most significant part of your game, with party combat as your focus. So when you put the least amount of effort into something that has a significant role to play in the game and directly affects the gameplay, you are really betraying your own devised system. Out of all the things that were sacrificed to bring the "bling bling" to DA:I, this one hit the hardest for me. 

 

I could play in Nightmare after picking up a specialization or craft gear to make the game easier but it won't change the fact that I'm not playing at my best because of horrible AI. I made this thread so I could give you honest feedback about something I used to enjoy putting time into, which was stripped of all its fun features from the previous games, to make way for whatever you thought was more important. I didn't make this thread to annoy you guys to fix it in the game. I don't think it can be fixed at this point, but please try to remember this one fan's displeasure of DA:I's AI system and his request to bring back the traditional Tactics system to DA.


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#2
Fidite Nemini

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Meanwhile in DAO with the Advanced Tactics, Custom Number of Tactics Slots and the Advanced Quickbar mods, can finetune companions into industrialized murder machines and even release control (sorry, had to do it) and let my own tactics+AI control even the character I have currently selected and can simply watch them efficiently defeat enemies on Nightmare difficulty without ever taking direct control (you knew it would come!).

 

 

Was it too much to hope for after BioWare said they want to make a game more like DAO?


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#3
Jeffry

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Either you shut off AI in the most challenging scenarios

 

That is what I have done. Cassandra was only allowed to use Horn of Valor and Shield Wall, Varric was only allowed to use Poisoned Weapons, Vivienne was only allowed to use Spirit Blade and Inquisitor archer wasn't allowed to use bloody anything, so they wouldn't mess something up that much. Though that hasn't stop the two archers running directly before a dragon's head, because where better to shoot your arrows from than from that fiery inferno unleashed upon your tank. And I don't even want to mention that stupid hold command which is overwritten by everything.

 

Personally I didn't used tactics that much in DAO, because I don't want to just sit and watch as my party will murder anything in sight on their own while I am making my coffee, but for a healer companion they were super useful.



#4
TheOgre

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Meanwhile in DAO with the Advanced Tactics, Custom Number of Tactics Slots and the Advanced Quickbar mods, can finetune companions into industrialized murder machines and even release control (sorry, had to do it) and let my own tactics+AI control even the character I have currently selected and can simply watch them efficiently defeat enemies on Nightmare difficulty without ever taking direct control (you knew it would come!).

 

 

Was it too much to hope for after BioWare said they want to make a game more like DAO?

 

You did it, you made me regret not owning DAO on PC!!!

 

I was a console peasant. Still, vanilla tactical ai is good with modifications. 

 

>.> wait for a sale on DAO or plunge it full price.. what do



#5
skuid

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I've suffered the same problems in my nightmare playthrough. I think you forgot to mention Varric or Sera falling down a cliff because they use the leaping shot or trying to tank an enemy because something is blocking their view :lol:.

 

After watching my party members follow my character target instead of attacking the target I ordered, I changed in the "tactics" of each character to follow themselves, that way they keep attacking their target instead of my character target. Also I disabled the use of barrier and mostly every other mage spell so I could choose barrier whenever I want, the same for guard granting habilities. I found useful to use two mages so they could cast barrier to my tank and have it up almost constantly.

 

That way I could manage to complete my nightmare playthrough. Hope that helps.



#6
Fidite Nemini

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You did it, you made me regret not owning DAO on PC!!!

 

I was a console peasant. Still, vanilla tactical ai is good with modifications. 

 

>.> wait for a sale on DAO or plunge it full price.. what do

 

Try this. You can also get the Steam version, but it's a bit more expensive.



#7
Jeffry

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>.> wait for a sale on DAO or plunge it full price.. what do

 

DAO:UE is pretty cheap at g2a.com, but get the Origin version, it is both cheaper and easier to mod than the Steam one



#8
DearDoe

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Its such a shame you cant micromanage you're teams behaviours and tactics in nightmare mode, as the action of the game is killed by having to pause every second to tell your party what to do!
I cant speak for all players but I like playing Dragon Age in real-time in its hardest mode after sorting tactics prier to battle.
Older games are better and the vastness of this title is wasted on players that want to play a game at its full extent from point of entry.. first time experience is ruined.
I will not be buying the next title in the series if this game stays at this state, I have already stopped playing single player in disappointment! I would like to see an update which is patched in as I feel I have lost game content from previous titles.
 
Thanks


#9
TurretSyndrome

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I've suffered the same problems in my nightmare playthrough. I think you forgot to mention Varric or Sera falling down a cliff because they use the leaping shot or trying to tank an enemy because something is blocking their view :lol:.

 

After watching my party members follow my character target instead of attacking the target I ordered, I changed in the "tactics" of each character to follow themselves, that way they keep attacking their target instead of my character target. Also I disabled the use of barrier and mostly every other mage spell so I could choose barrier whenever I want, the same for guard granting habilities. I found useful to use two mages so they could cast barrier to my tank and have it up almost constantly.

 

That way I could manage to complete my nightmare playthrough. Hope that helps.

 

The thought of giving Vivienne a point to put in Barrier did cross my mind, but I'm still not sure about it. I've given her all three "starter pokemon" abilities, Flashfire, Winter's grasp and Lightning Bolt for their debilitating effects(Flashfire works wonders on Pride Demons, especially if you time it before their big lightning lash move). 

 

I also thought about removing Barrier from the active abilities but that's the problem. Every solution to every malfucntion with the AI seems to end up being "just turn off AI". What happened to just allowing us to set the command to our mages to cast the damn things on specific party members?

 

 

 

Personally I didn't used tactics that much in DAO, because I don't want to just sit and watch as my party will murder anything in sight on their own while I am making my coffee, but for a healer companion they were super useful.

 

The point of the Tactics, atleast for me, is to customize their actions beforehand and reduce the burden of handholding the characters even with the trivial of tasks. It makes the game incredibly less tedious and allows me to concentrate on my own character and also have fun. Setting up efficient Tactics for the party members doesn't suddenly turn them into what you say killing machines. Even manually, my party is just as efficient because I have access to the pause function. Only difference is that what I have to specify every second for them to do, is something I can implement before combat. The difficulty suddenly doesn't change, unless you consider tedious unnecessary actions that need to be made by the player as part of the difficulty.


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#10
Jeffry

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The point of the Tactics, atleast for me, is to customize their actions beforehand and reduce the burden of handholding the characters even with the trivial of tasks. It makes the game incredibly less tedious and allows me to concentrate on my own character and also have fun. Setting up efficient Tactics for the party members doesn't suddenly turn them into what you say killing machines. Even manually, my party is just as efficient because I have access to the pause function. Only difference is that what I have to specify every second for them to do, is something I can implement before combat. The difficulty suddenly doesn't change, unless you consider tedious unnecessary actions that need to be made by the player as part of the difficulty.

 

Well, I might have had a different experience thanks to my party composition and the builds I went for with them. For my final playthrough I removed even healing spells from the tactics (so I would be casting something at least besides mandatory taunt with my tank) and only let Wynne automatically buff my 2 dps dealers with offensive buffs and my tank with a defensive one. The other characters had only sustaible abilities set up, since they didn't need to be using anything else ever since I recruited Wynne. I blame game balance, or more like lack of one :)



#11
TurretSyndrome

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Well, I might have had a different experience thanks to my party composition and the builds I went for with them. For my final playthrough I removed even healing spells from the tactics (so I would be casting something at least besides mandatory taunt with my tank) and only let Wynne automatically buff my 2 dps dealers with offensive buffs and my tank with a defensive one. The other characters had only sustaible abilities set up, since they didn't need to be using anything else ever since I recruited Wynne. I blame game balance, or more like lack of one :)

 

Different experiences stemming from different games then. My experience with Tactics system mostly stems from DA 2. I remember barely even touching the game on Nightmare before resorting to mods and console commands to turn my character into a one-hit-kill, deathblow initiating god, in DA:O. 

 

DA 2 was very fast paced so relying on Tactics for immediate response to health depletion was a smart thing to do. It also offered more options to allow for more complicated actions by AI.



#12
Rawgrim

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Meanwhile in DAO with the Advanced Tactics, Custom Number of Tactics Slots and the Advanced Quickbar mods, can finetune companions into industrialized murder machines and even release control (sorry, had to do it) and let my own tactics+AI control even the character I have currently selected and can simply watch them efficiently defeat enemies on Nightmare difficulty without ever taking direct control (you knew it would come!).

 

 

Was it too much to hope for after BioWare said they want to make a game more like DAO?

 

They can't. The people who made it are no longer employed at Bioware. They are out and about making games like Pillars of Eternity etc. Which looks to be a perfect mix between BG and DA:O.


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#13
b10d1v

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I've suffered the same problems in my nightmare playthrough. I think you forgot to mention Varric or Sera falling down a cliff because they use the leaping shot or trying to tank an enemy because something is blocking their view :lol:.

 

After watching my party members follow my character target instead of attacking the target I ordered, I changed in the "tactics" of each character to follow themselves, that way they keep attacking their target instead of my character target. Also I disabled the use of barrier and mostly every other mage spell so I could choose barrier whenever I want, the same for guard granting habilities. I found useful to use two mages so they could cast barrier to my tank and have it up almost constantly.

 

That way I could manage to complete my nightmare playthrough. Hope that helps.

Love that leaping one -oops Varric!  If they teleport back not too bad, but if they path find -their lost, stuck or running around in circles!  This is not a tactics issue, but falls into modeling behaviors and worldspace (pathfinding).  The model has no feature to avoid most damage, just stand in the fire Varric - anyone for fresh roasted Dwarf!  I don't recommend the defend option either they just watch you die -useless.  I don't use the tactics system and mostly travel alone because of the dismal NPC behavior system.  In Skyrim I added NPCs to play with and enjoyed them, here I find myself avoiding them as much as possible.  Never felt that way in DAO, is that only plot and character development or is it the weak dialog that makes you not want them?  Is it all these things and much more?.....

 

TurretSyndrome: I'm going to give it a shot alone at adamant and see how that goes....Just hit 10 



#14
Jeffry

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Different experiences stemming from different games then. My experience with Tactics system mostly stems from DA 2. I remember barely even touching the game on Nightmare before resorting to mods and console commands to turn my character into a one-hit-kill, deathblow initiating god, in DA:O. 

 

DA 2 was very fast paced so relying on Tactics for immediate response to health depletion was a smart thing to do. It also offered more options to allow for more complicated actions by AI.

 

I myself didn't use tactics at all in DA2, since I didn't trust the AI to use the spells in the right time, when I knew there is another wave of enemies coming any time now (something I didn't have to count with in DAO) and it would be better to conserve all possible cooldowns, especially those healing spells which weren't spamable anymore. Nightmare in that game was sometimes a real nightmare compared to DAO.



#15
TurretSyndrome

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I myself didn't use tactics at all in DA2, since I didn't trust the AI to use the spells in the right time, when I knew there is another wave of enemies coming any time now (something I didn't have to count with in DAO) and it would be better to conserve all possible cooldowns, especially those healing spells which weren't spamable anymore. Nightmare in that game was sometimes a real nightmare compared to DAO.

 

I remember setting them in just the right way so they have this perfect combination they do whenever the same condition shows up for them. The Varric and Fenris one with the Explosive Arrow is one I never forget. Good times.  :D

 

 

 

TurretSyndrome: I'm going to give it a shot alone at adamant and see how that goes....Just hit 10 

 

I jumped in when my party was at 9 and now I can't defeat the final boss. If you're playing with specializations with decent gear, you'd probably be able to do it.



#16
Jeffry

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I remember setting them in just the right way so they have this perfect combination they do whenever the same condition shows up for them. The Varric and Fenris one with the Explosive Arrow is one I never forget. Good times.  :D

 

Oh god, Fenris, I still remember how he once jumped into the fray and Mighty Blowed my entire party to smithereens while all the enemies suffered like 1/10 of their total HP. It also took me way too long to realize (like right before the final quest in Act 1) that on nightmare he is constatly damaging my tank and melee rogue with every autoattack. Long story short, he was kicked out of the active party and my rogue became an archer :D



#17
b10d1v

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They can't. The people who made it are no longer employed at Bioware. They are out and about making games like Pillars of Eternity etc. Which looks to be a perfect mix between BG and DA:O.

Rawgrim I got a kick out of that :D -but theses are not people problems, the creativity did not walk out the door nor did the now ancient modeling we adore.  Most of these issues are trivial by today's standards and that is the problem!  We expect NPC behavior to exceed or at least meet the last generation of games -isn't improved game play what you pay for?



#18
b10d1v

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Turret- My point exactly, the team is useless - also want to see if the game cracks ....after its done updating.

I haven crafted above tier 2 -might upgrade my staff materials fist or killing demons my take all day.



#19
Darkly Tranquil

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The sheer hopelessness of the AI tactics is one of the chief reasons why I won't bother attempting a second playthrough. Just too frustrating to spend the whole game wrestling with suicidal lemming companions.


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#20
Saphiron123

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Varrick dies a lot, he wastes his backflip attack that would be so useful when he was under melee attack. Solas cast barrier 30 second before i can even HIT the enemy. And it's frustrating because both things could be solved even in origins, nevermind with the expanded tactics of DA2.



#21
b10d1v

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Ok Turret, hit 12 when I got the fort and and only 1 pride demon was too hard to kill alone, finally gave up on it and went to the Fade -didn't crash.  Also Stroud and hero of Kirkwall were pretty much useless, just stand around about 90% of the time, but that was expected. 


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#22
MonkeyLungs

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I miss the tactics system very much. It is one of my favorite, if not the number one, parts of combat in DA:O and DA2.

 

You could even set up the tactics for roleplay if you weren't going for pure efficiency. Like make Fenris spam every ability needlessly any time he saw a mage in combat, or make Varric protect Merril to the detriment of any other concern, etc.

 

If I had to pick one gripe about DA:I as the biggest for me it is the omission of tactics.


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#23
CENIC

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I don't play on Nightmare, but the removal of the tactics menu was the one design decision from DAI that upset me. :(
I like to spend most of my time controlling my PC in third-person. Using the tactics menu in Origins and DA2 to tailor the party AI to be most effective to your playstyle was incredible, and DA was the first game I'd ever played that offered such granular control over AI. The more I played the games, the more familiar I became with the AI and the easier it was to manipulate it to my ends with the tactics menu. I had some fun party compositions in DA2 especially that were only possible because of tactics tweaking.
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#24
TurretSyndrome

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Ok Turret, hit 12 when I got the fort and and only 1 pride demon was too hard to kill alone, finally gave up on it and went to the Fade -didn't crash.  Also Stroud and hero of Kirkwall were pretty much useless, just stand around about 90% of the time, but that was expected. 

 

Wait until they drink your potions.



#25
Benman1964

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But now?

Blackwall: Hey player, I need a potion cause I was just standing there like an idiot without blocking or attacking the enemy. *gulp*(-1 potion)

Player: *switches to Blackwall, gets him to block*

Inquisitor: *wastes Barrier on random party member*

Player: Aw sh!t *switches back to Inquisitor*

Vivienne: I can't see. *moves really close to the enemy cause she can't target them and is about to die from the enemy's AoE*

Player: Crap! *switches to Vivenne and presses the area to move to*

Vivienne: *ignores player orders, continues to cast* Hey, don't break my streak. Let me cast this one spell and I'll move. *dies*

Blackwall: (-4 potions) I know you prefer that I use WarCry to generate guard but I like Shield Bash better.

 

*Player turns into Despair demon after the inevitable party wipe*

 

Click: Hold position.
Click: Hold position!
Click: Hold position!
Click: HOLD POSITION.
Click: HOLD POSITION!
Click: HOLD POSITION!
JESUS, CRAP!
*quits game*

:D
AI system is totally crap. A simple chess computer does better.


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