104 réponses à ce sujet

[Steelcan]

How so? Sure they have caps in their understanding but considering historical events that's understandable, I don't see how it invalidates their religion?
 
If anything the Creators are proven to be real while the Maker remains fluffy and baseless.

. Beings that have the same name are proven to have once existed. But I doubt many Dalish elves would have said "Mythal is definitely that crazy human witch in the ass end of Ferelden" or "Fen'Harel locked the Gods away to protect them (as revealed by Cole/Sola's banter)"

[CuriousArtemis]

I bet Thoreau didn't "frolic" in his Life in the Woods.

Are you kidding? I bet he bloody well did lol!

[Patchwork]

. Beings that have the same name are proven to have once existed. But I doubt many Dalish elves would have said "Mythal is definitely that crazy human witch in the ass end of Ferelden" or "Fen'Harel locked the Gods away to protect them (as revealed by Cole/Sola's banter)"

 

Asha'bellanar is feared and respected among the dalish I doubt any of them would dare dismiss her as "that crazy human witch in the ass end of Ferelden". They know Fen'Harel locked away the other gods why is one of the knowledge gaps they openly admit to having.  

[CathyMe]

. Trying to reconcile Dalish beliefs with Andrastian teaching is hardly a problem. If people like Merrill or other Dalish elves feel threatened by this, that's their own problem.

Better for the two to have some common ground than them be wholly incompatible

"It's alright, you follow our God in your own way"- no reconciliation there, they are imposing,

As far as the Dalish, considering the Chantry's massive f*** up at the Dales, they have reasons to be wary of andrastian humans preaching about the religion. I personally think Merill reacted admirably to Sebastian's attempt at preaching. But as I said this is not the thread for this kind of debate.  We bot voiced our opinions and I don't think either one of us will change them, so how about we agree to disagree and be on our way.

[Addai]

But I doubt many Dalish elves would have said "Mythal is definitely that crazy human witch in the ass end of Ferelden" 

The Dalish have shown fear and reverence for Flemeth since The Stolen Throne, when they were acting as her scouts. You take Flemeth's life force with you to Kirkwall in DA2 and give it to the Dalish who perform a rite to reconstitute her. When Merrill bows to her, Flemeth asks if she knows her by any other title than Asha'belannar and Merrill answers no. Flemeth says "Then rise. The People bend the knee too quickly."

 

The Dalish didn't know who she was, but they knew she was important, and she was involved with them as well.

[Steelcan]

The Dalish have shown fear and reverence for Flemeth since The Stolen Throne, when they were acting as her scouts. You take Flemeth's life force with you to Kirkwall in DA2 and give it to the Dalish who perform a rite to reconstitute her. When Merrill bows to her, Flemeth asks if she knows her by any other title than Asha'belannar and Merrill answers no. Flemeth says "Then rise. The People bend the knee too quickly."

 

The Dalish didn't know who she was, but they knew she was important, and she was involved with them as well.

Clearly, but they did not think her one of the Creators

[Steelcan]

Asha'bellanar is feared and respected among the dalish I doubt any of them would dare dismiss her as "that crazy human witch in the ass end of Ferelden". They know Fen'Harel locked away the other gods why is one of the knowledge gaps they openly admit to having.  

Yes, but they don't think of her as a Creator, which she by all rights is...

 

They made up the explanation to explain why they got curbstomped by Tevinter, which is wrong because elves wrecked Arlathan.  I find it curious that there is in fact truth to this, but its likely a lot more going on than Dalish myth says

[Steelcan]

"It's alright, you follow our God in your own way"- no reconciliation there, they are imposing,

As far as the Dalish, considering the Chantry's massive f*** up at the Dales, they have reasons to be wary of andrastian humans preaching about the religion. I personally think Merill reacted admirably to Sebastian's attempt at preaching. But as I said this is not the thread for this kind of debate.  We bot voiced our opinions and I don't think either one of us will change them, so how about we agree to disagree and be on our way.

boring

[Addai]

Yes, but they don't think of her as a Creator, which she by all rights is...

 

They made up the explanation to explain why they got curbstomped by Tevinter, which is wrong because elves wrecked Arlathan.  I find it curious that there is in fact truth to this, but its likely a lot more going on than Dalish myth says

But they also didn't think of her as just a hag in the forest, as you claimed earlier.

 

Tevinter did wreck Arlathan. It was just weakened by internal fighting. We still say that the Turks conquered Constantinople, even though by then the Byzantine Empire was a mere shadow of itself.

[Steelcan]

But they also didn't think of her as just a hag in the forest, as you claimed earlier.

 

Tevinter did wreck Arlathan. It was just weakened by internal fighting. We still say that the Turks conquered Constantinople, even though by then the Byzantine Empire was a mere shadow of itself.

I didn't say they only thought of Flemeth as that, I said they didn't think of Mythal like that, kind of a difference

 

Tevinter scraped the bones of a dead empire according to Abelas, Constantinople was actually still somewhat important when it fell

[MisterJB]

"It's alright, you follow our God in your own way"- no reconciliation there, they are imposing,

They aren't. "You follow our God in your own way" is reciprocal for it also means "we follow your God in our own way."

[Master Warder Z_]

I didn't say they only thought of Flemeth as that, I said they didn't think of Mythal like that, kind of a difference

Tevinter scraped the bones of a dead empire according to Abelas, Constantinople was actually still somewhat important when it fell

Kind of a let down to be honest.

I was imagining some epic end of days war scenario.

Instead it was merely grave robbing.

[Eliastion]

I didn't say they only thought of Flemeth as that, I said they didn't think of Mythal like that, kind of a difference

 

Tevinter scraped the bones of a dead empire according to Abelas, Constantinople was actually still somewhat important when it fell

A bitter elf declaring "we destroyed ourselves" doesn't mean there were nothing but ruins left. It's possible, certainly, but it's just one possibility. Interpretation can range from magical equivalent of nuclear war to an empire so weakened by infighting that it wasn't able to unite and mobilize in face of external threat. 

[convergecultist3]

For me playing as a male heterosexual dalish warden and/or dalish inquisitor, there is no compromise. I don't engage in any of the optional romances, because none of them are with a female elf. So my head canon for them is that Mahariel ends up with Merrill and Lavellan has some badass huntress in his clan waiting for him.

[Steelcan]

A bitter elf declaring "we destroyed ourselves" doesn't mean there were nothing but ruins left. It's possible, certainly, but it's just one possibility. Interpretation can range from magical equivalent of nuclear war to an empire so weakened by infighting that it wasn't able to unite and mobilize in face of external threat.

Abelas was roughly contemporary to the events, dismissing his knowledge in order to defend a different account made up centuries after the fact is such a ridiculous notion I'm not even sure what to say.

[Wulfram]

A bitter elf declaring "we destroyed ourselves" doesn't mean there were nothing but ruins left. It's possible, certainly, but it's just one possibility. Interpretation can range from magical equivalent of nuclear war to an empire so weakened by infighting that it wasn't able to unite and mobilize in face of external threat.

It could even simply reflect that Abelas' side lost a civil war, and the winners were people he didn't regard as real elves.

[Addai]

 

Tevinter scraped the bones of a dead empire according to Abelas, Constantinople was actually still somewhat important when it fell

Compared to what it was, I'm sure Elvhenan was diminished by that time, but the fact still remains that Tevinter conquered something.

[Master Warder Z_]

Compared to what it was, I'm sure Elvhenan was diminished by that time, but the fact still remains that Tevinter conquered something.

I suppose taking undefended territory could be construed as annexation in a loose sense. Elves were introduced to the Imperium after all but it clearly wasn't much of a war if you take the elf at his word.

[Br3admax]

I didn't say they only thought of Flemeth as that, I said they didn't think of Mythal like that, kind of a difference

 

Tevinter scraped the bones of a dead empire according to Abelas, Constantinople was actually still somewhat important when it fell

Are you implying the Latin Empire didn't severely weaken Byzantium? 

[Addai]

I suppose taking undefended territory could be construed as annexation in a loose sense. Elves were introduced to the Imperium after all but it clearly wasn't much of a war if you take the elf at his word.

Sure, I take him at his word, but presumably he's one who saw Elvhenan in its glory days when it spanned most of Thedas.

[dragonflight288]

I don't know how anybody can play through DA:I and still go at the end "Yep the Dalish definitely have the right of it in regards to religion"

 

There is now definite proof that their gods existed, unlike the Maker, even if the details have been lost in time, it remains remarkable how much has actually been preserved considering they were in slavery for 1000 years to Tevinter, and those slaves used ancient elven magic traditions preserved through the oral tradition to help create the Grey Warden Joining, and then a few hundred years later losing their second homeland and their entire religion and culture outlawed.

 

They may not have it right 100%, but they do have enough correct that their gods existed, still walk or nap across Thedas, and their ancient technology and magics were, in fact, the greatest in the history of Thedas considering an ancient magister relied on ancient elven magics to try and become a god and restore Tevinter to its glorified height. He couldn't rely on human magics from the Circles or from Tevinter itself.

 

That shows that even if you don't agree with their ancient culture, their ancient power and traditions still hold a great deal of weight in the world, and Solas may be using it to bring about the next great DLC...or game.

[Eliastion]

Abelas was roughly contemporary to the events, dismissing his knowledge in order to defend a different account made up centuries after the fact is such a ridiculous notion I'm not even sure what to say.

It's a good thing I wasn't dismissing his knowledge, then.

I'm pretty sure he knows what happened and pretty sure he tells the truth - but that doesn't change the fact that "we destroyed ourselves" does NOT necessarily mean "everyone was dead and everything in ruins". He's an ancient elf, the leader of the guardians, so we can assume he wasn't a child when the Elvhenan fell. So he has seen Elvhenan in all its glory - then he has seen the civil war that led it to a state where shemlen barbarians could overpower it. It wasn't their strength that destroyed Elvhenan, but its weakness. It wasn't them who brought it to its knees - it was the elves themselves who made it possible.

Abelas is sorrowful and bitter, locked up in the Temple with a bunch of comrades, their numbers dwindling slowly but surely. He has seen the glory, he has seen the destruction and he knows the elves brought it upon themselves. They have destroyed themselves, but that doesn't really contradict the idea that Tevinter conquered Elvhenan. If anything, it makes it possible: I, for one, always considered it an ugly hand-wave that a great continent-spanning empire with magic that has yet to be replicated (Eluvians being the prime example) could have actually fallen to Tevinter, just like that. But total destruction of their own hands doesn't sound plausible either.

So, basically, I consider "we destroyed ourselves" revelation to be a necessary prerequisite for "Tevinter conquered Elvhenan" rather than contradiction  

[Steelcan]

There is now definite proof that their gods existed, unlike the Maker, even if the details have been lost in time, it remains remarkable how much has actually been preserved considering they were in slavery for 1000 years to Tevinter, and those slaves used ancient elven magic traditions preserved through the oral tradition to help create the Grey Warden Joining, and then a few hundred years later losing their second homeland and their entire religion and culture outlawed.
 
They may not have it right 100%, but they do have enough correct that their gods existed, still walk or nap across Thedas, and their ancient technology and magics were, in fact, the greatest in the history of Thedas considering an ancient magister relied on ancient elven magics to try and become a god and restore Tevinter to its glorified height. He couldn't rely on human magics from the Circles or from Tevinter itself.
 
That shows that even if you don't agree with their ancient culture, their ancient power and traditions still hold a great deal of weight in the world, and Solas may be using it to bring about the next great DLC...or game.

Congrats, none of that means the Dalish are right about the nature of any potential higher powers. Their Gods were not shown to have been actual divine beings in any way.

And I wasn't making commentary beyond that. DA:I shows that Dalish ideas on their gods are wrong, that's all I said,that's all I meant to say

[Steelcan]

It's a good thing I wasn't dismissing his knowledge, then.
I'm pretty sure he knows what happened and pretty sure he tells the truth - but that doesn't change the fact that "we destroyed ourselves" does NOT necessarily mean "everyone was dead and everything in ruins". He's an ancient elf, the leader of the guardians, so we can assume he wasn't a child when the Elvhenan fell. So he has seen Elvhenan in all its glory - then he has seen the civil war that led it to a state where shemlen barbarians could overpower it. It wasn't their strength that destroyed Elvhenan, but its weakness. It wasn't them who brought it to its knees - it was the elves themselves who made it possible.
Abelas is sorrowful and bitter, locked up in the Temple with a bunch of comrades, their numbers dwindling slowly but surely. He has seen the glory, he has seen the destruction and he knows the elves brought it upon themselves. They have destroyed themselves, but that doesn't really contradict the idea that Tevinter conquered Elvhenan. If anything, it makes it possible: I, for one, always considered it an ugly hand-wave that a great continent-spanning empire with magic that has yet to be replicated (Eluvians being the prime example) could have actually fallen to Tevinter, just like that. But total destruction of their own hands doesn't sound plausible either.
So, basically, I consider "we destroyed ourselves" revelation to be a necessary prerequisite for "Tevinter conquered Elvhenan" rather than contradiction

And what does that have to with I said at all?

You said it was up to interpretation, I said no, then you respond with this?

[Eliastion]

And what does that have to with I said at all?

You said it was up to interpretation, I said no, then you respond with this?

No, you said that I dismissed his knowledge. That's very different from saying "no, my interpretation of his words is the only correct one".

Sorry for misunderstanding what you meant, but please, do try and express yourself clearer in the future.