94 réponses à ce sujet

[DrBlingzle]

So after Shepard escapes from the sol system and reach the Council Udina requests aid from the other races to defend Earth. Out of concern that this would leave their own planets undefended. Udina reproaches this and shepard agrees saying "how can they be so blind?".

 

To be honest I don't really blame them.

 

Don't get me wrong, it makes sense to go back to Earth at the end because that's where the citadel is, which is required for the crucible. But when you first ask them, Earth is just another planet among hundreds getting hit. Why should all the other races all try to reclaim Earth when this would pretty much doom all of their own planets? Hell Palavan, is getting hit almost just as badly as Earth and if the Turians pulled out to help Earth, Palavan would be conquered in hours. And yet the Turians don't expect humans to spend all the Alliances resources to defending Palavan as Udina expects the Turians to do for Earth.

 

But despite this the game sort of expects us to blame them for this, giving us no other dialogue option other than "how can they be so blind."

 

Anyway this was just how I felt about it, what about you?

[themikefest]

No I don't blame them. 

 

I do thank the Turian Councilor for coming forward with information that will help get the help that Shepard needs. Had he not come forward, who knows what Shepard would've done.

[Vazgen]

Each of them is too concerned with their own safety. I don't blame them, it's a pretty natural reaction IMO. But it fits to my Shepard to say "how can they be so blind?" because Shepard saw what the Reapers are capable of firsthand. 

And they did plan that summit. Originally it was supposed to be Asari + Turians + Salarians. 

What I find baffling is Asari councilor's actions. The Asari are supposed to be inter-species diplomats but for such a reputation, she comes out as a shortsighted "self-concerned jackass" And I'm not talking about Thessia (though it doesn't help either). I'm talking about refusing to participate in a summit with the krogan. I'd understand if Salarians refused, but Asari? I don't understand.

[Barquiel]

No, I don't blame them (especially because we later stop Udina from sending the council fleets to Earth!). The codex entry for the coup is pretty clear...

Persistent rumors suggest that Udina might have been a high-functioning victim of Reaper indoctrination. His actions played right into the Reapers' plans: even if the coup failed, it would damage Citadel governance. If it succeeded, his plan to retake Earth would likely have turned into a military blunder that Council forces could ill afford. However, there is no direct evidence of his indoctrination, nor obvious opportunity. It is more likely that Udina acted out of desperation, and in doing so, cost humanity its councilor.

 

But even if the council was to say "All asari/salarian/turian forces, go die on Earth!" the matriarchs/dalatrass/primarch would have simply overruled them (and had roles been reversed and Thessia or Sur'kesh were invaded first the alliance wouldn't have responded any different). The Asari helped to evacuate some human colonies while the turians had their own problems on Palavan, but sending the united fleets of the Alliance, Turians, Asari and everyone else to Earth never made any sense strategically, at least not until the citadel was moved there.

[Darius M.]

In so far as sending aid right then and there when you ask them in the beginning, no I don't blame them; EVERYONE is under attack, and I get it, with no real plan, no superweapon, no counter for the capital ships, and no real incentive, of course I don't blame them. Within that specific context, I can completely understand why they wouldn't just send their fleets to Earth. 

 

Now that being said, I always interpreted Shepard's quote of "How can they be so blind?" as more of a reflection of the council's policies in the last 2+ years. Despite all the signs, all your warnings, everything you have turned up, (By the way, I REFUSE to believe that body armor/helmets in that day and age don't have some sort of recorder; but I digress...) Point being, despite all you have done, and all that Sovereign did, they still are absolutely clueless and did almost nothing to prepare for the Reapers. Granted, I admit that even if they had used the full two years, they probably still wouldn't have been completely ready, but still, the overall policies of complete willful ignorance is where I blame them, even if I can't do so for the conversation that takes place within that specific context. 

 

In addition, I don't know if it's canon, but that hologram in the Citadel vaults (DLC) clearly shows that the higher ups (Spectres, Councillors, etc) CLEARLY knew that Sovereign wasn't Geth tech. They knew something was coming and chose to ignore it. 

 

I still hate that Turian Councillor, though. 

[Sirzechs_Krios]

 

 

I still hate that Turian Councillor, though. 

Lol the guy still gave one of the best air quotes in the game.

[Darius M.]

Lol the guy still gave one of the best air quotes in the game.

That he did... Still a jackass though. haha 

[von uber]

The Asari not appearing at the Council made no sense in-Universe. But for the game, it made sense - couldn't have everyone trucking up from the get go as it would have made the game very short.

[Memnon]

What I blame the council for is denying that the Reapers exist after having the empirical evidence in the form of Sovereign body bits strewn all over the citadel. I know they tried to explain that away in ME2 (I don't recall how off the top of my head), but it seems that in the span between ME1 and ME3 they could have been building some self-sustaining underground complexes, a la Ilos ...

[Barquiel]

What I blame the council for is denying that the Reapers exist after having the empirical evidence in the form of Sovereign body bits strewn all over the citadel. I know they tried to explain that away in ME2 (I don't recall how off the top of my head), but it seems that in the span between ME1 and ME3 they could have been building some self-sustaining underground complexes, a la Ilos ...

 

In the citadel DLC it was implied that they suspected Sovereign was a Reaper but went with 'Geth' as the official story, most likely to prevent people from panicking or something (which doesn't make much sense because in ME1 Tevos acknowledged that the Reapers (plural) were coming...but then we wouldn't have any reason to work with everyones favorite space terrorist group).

[berrieh]

No, but I blame them for not doing more sooner. At that exact moment, their hesitation was understandable. IF you saved the Council in ME1, and thus damaged Alliance fleets, they maybe should've offered token forces to help evacuate colonies or something more feasible.

[Valmar]

I agree. I don't blame them at all. That being said, I found the whole "save earth!" angle to be pretty stupid anyway. The argument should had been "help with the crucible" not "protect this one planet". Getting the crucible built should be the top priority, not gaining support for earth.

[Linkenski]

I don't blame them, but on that subject it still confuses me how the premise of the game became "Oh no, the Reapers have invaded Earth, we have to save it at any cost" when it should've been "Oh no, the Reapers have invaded the galaxy. We have to stop them before they kill everyone (and possibly evacuate and sacrifice entire homeworlds if need be)"

 

I wanted to punch Shepard for constantly bringing Earth up in dialogue, and whenever we got a dialogue choice it was renegade to look besides of Earth's interest. As a player I have never seen Earth in Mass Effect outside of ME3's intro. ME1 has several references that show how important Earth still is to humanity, but also shows how many have moved into space and settlements like Eden Prime. ME2 made me care much more about everywhere but Earth and then in ME3, Earth is suddenly the most important thing. In fact it was so important that it made it seem like saving Earth was more important than stopping the Reapers.

[StarcloudSWG]

What I blame them for is being unfortunate enough to be the targets of the writing tool known as the "Idiot Ball."

 

There were many other, more mature ways that the Council being unable to respond to the Reaper threat could have been handled; the governments don't want to spend the money, there are treaties that needed to be renegotiated, etc etc etc. Instead the writers had them say "We don't believe you despite the evidence we have, nananananananana!"

 

Do I blame them for not going to Earth? No. In fact, the entire 'Earth-centric' tone of the ME 3 story grated on me. It annoyed me. It was clearly something that a writer who hadn't really read a lot of science-fiction came up with, someone whose ideas of what constitutes 'sci-fi' began and ended with Star Trek and Star Wars.

 

I'd even go so far as to say it was a demand of the publisher's marketing department that Earth HAD to play a role in the game, given what the ME 3 trailer was like.

[Excella Gionne]

Why would I? Demanding for all of the fleets of the council races to defend Earth at the beginning of the invasion was simply asking for too much. Also, it was due to bad writing.

[MrFob]

I don't blame them, but on that subject it still confuses me how the premise of the game became "Oh no, the Reapers have invaded Earth, we have to save it at any cost" when it should've been "Oh no, the Reapers have invaded the galaxy. We have to stop them before they kill everyone (and possibly evacuate and sacrifice entire homeworlds if need be)"

 

I wanted to punch Shepard for constantly bringing Earth up in dialogue, and whenever we got a dialogue choice it was renegade to look besides of Earth's interest. As a player I have never seen Earth in Mass Effect outside of ME3's intro. ME1 has several references that show how important Earth still is to humanity, but also shows how many have moved into space and settlements like Eden Prime. ME2 made me care much more about everywhere but Earth and then in ME3, Earth is suddenly the most important thing. In fact it was so important that it made it seem like saving Earth was more important than stopping the Reapers.

 

Well, technically, saving the galaxy was the premise Linkenski. I don't recall anyone ever suggesting that Earth should be saved at any cost. It just happens that Earth was used as an example of how bad things could be a lot (and possibly too often). After all, it was the first world to be hit by the reapers after the batarians (whom apparently no one likes at all).

I do agree, that Earth's importance to certain characters got blown out of proportion (especially Shepard if s/he is a colonist and especially on Menae) but I wouldn't say that anyone put Earth's fate before the fate of the galaxy.

 

On topic: I don't really blame the council but I do think it was handled badly by the writers. It would not have hurt the story in the slightest if the council had actually prepared for the reapers in secret. On the contrary, it would have actually helped the reaper's menace if the council had prepared in every way they could but if that had still failed. It would also have given the Asari a better reason not to commit to the first war summit, beyond "we really don't want to". They could have said> :"While you were with Cerberus, we actually prepared but couldn't trust you. So you go ahead with your stupid idea of curing the genophage while we handle the reapers with our great stuff."

Then, mid game, they get their behinds handed to them by the reapers anyway and then they could have joined. It would have been much less contrived IMO. It would also made the Asari look much less foolish for hiding the beacon that long.

[God]

No, but I do think that they had selfish and short-sighted reasons for withholding support for the Crucible, nor accepting the necessity of it.

 

What I really blame them for is the lack of proactive response to the Reaper threat. 

 

They aren't theory or imaginary anymore. They're here and they're kicking ass. We aren't being proactive about a solution, we're wasting time breaking off and not working as a team to do something about it.

[Han Shot First]

Each of them is too concerned with their own safety. I don't blame them, it's a pretty natural reaction IMO. But it fits to my Shepard to say "how can they be so blind?" because Shepard saw what the Reapers are capable of firsthand. 

And they did plan that summit. Originally it was supposed to be Asari + Turians + Salarians. 

What I find baffling is Asari councilor's actions. The Asari are supposed to be inter-species diplomats but for such a reputation, she comes out as a shortsighted "self-concerned jackass" And I'm not talking about Thessia (though it doesn't help either). I'm talking about refusing to participate in a summit with the krogan. I'd understand if Salarians refused, but Asari? I don't understand.

 

My guess is that the Salarian Dalatrass probably politically strongarmed the Asari, much like she later tries to do with the Alliance through Shepard.

 

That's the only head canon I could come up with at least that makes some sense of the Asari not taking part in the summit. The out-of-universe reason of course is that if everyone was on board from the beginning, Shepard would face a lack of adversity and it would be a boring game.

[cap and gown]

I get the sense that parts of the story were written in isolation from each other. Sometimes the characters talk about helping Earth and that is why they need a alliance. Other times, the species need to get together so the Crucible can be built. The post-Thessia dialogue is most notable in how it zig-zags back and forth, with one minute Shepard blaming herself for the loss of Thessia, the next telling Liara she had spent years warning everyone and its not her fault. Coherence is not a strong suit in the script.

[SilJeff]

I only blame the council for refusing to prepare for two years after seeing first hand Sovereign's attack

[shodiswe]

It would have made sense for them to help if they would have stood a chance.

As it stand they would have just been smashing their head on a brick wall. Normaly allies would have been expected to help however, when possible.

[Linkenski]

Well, technically, saving the galaxy was the premise Linkenski. I don't recall anyone ever suggesting that Earth should be saved at any cost. It just happens that Earth was used as an example of how bad things could be a lot (and possibly too often). After all, it was the first world to be hit by the reapers after the batarians (whom apparently no one likes at all).

I do agree, that Earth's importance to certain characters got blown out of proportion (especially Shepard if s/he is a colonist and especially on Menae) but I wouldn't say that anyone put Earth's fate before the fate of the galaxy.

 

On topic: I don't really blame the council but I do think it was handled badly by the writers. It would not have hurt the story in the slightest if the council had actually prepared for the reapers in secret. On the contrary, it would have actually helped the reaper's menace if the council had prepared in every way they could but if that had still failed. It would also have given the Asari a better reason not to commit to the first war summit, beyond "we really don't want to". They could have said> :"While you were with Cerberus, we actually prepared but couldn't trust you. So you go ahead with your stupid idea of curing the genophage while we handle the reapers with our great stuff."

Then, mid game, they get their behinds handed to them by the reapers anyway and then they could have joined. It would have been much less contrived IMO. It would also made the Asari look much less foolish for hiding the beacon that long.

Even though we know Anderson is a soldier first and foremost I still thought it was incredibly out of character for him to say "I'll stay here and help out" because it makes no sense for ground troopers to give any resistance to the Reapers - Anderson should know this after the battle with Sovereign in ME1 IMHO - and the reaperified organics are just canonfodder to buy Reapers some time to wipe out everyone while they're distracted.

 

I was so angry at the intro when Shepard goes "Hurp, we'll bring everyone back to earth and save it!" and Anderson is like "We need to gather strength on Earth, which is already fucked but I'm stupid". Earth was clearly fucked. In ME1 the codex says there are like 6 Alliance Dreadnoughts in total, and A Reaper just obliterates one of those kinds of ships during the intro of ME3 without taking a scratch from it. Earth is fucked and everyone in the story should've realized that.

 

So dumb IMO.

 

I was rolling my eyes HARD at how ME3 established the plot at least. It gets Shepard wrong, it got Anderson wrong and the overarching premise wrong IMO, but luckily it soothed itself out a little more once the plot we expected took over, but then comes back at you in the final mission once again... that the ending got everything wrong was barely even a surprise to me. In fact I was always more angry at what ME3 turned out to be in its entirety and the ending was just icing on an already old and stinky cake.

[MissScarletTanager]

I think that some assume that the Council should have helped with Earth because it was hit first. But it's implied that the assault on Palaven happened really quickly after, and then Thessia (and other Asari worlds before that), Tuchanka, Rannoch, etc. The Reapers, once here and with access to the Mars Relay, struck really goddamn quick. What if Palaven was hit first, or just before Earth, and Garrus or someone went to the Council with the exact same plea for help. I don't see Udina doing anything different than the other Councilors in game. They are looking out for the well being of their people, nothing more. Luckily for Earth that the Ilos Beacon was in London, or the Crucible would most likely not have been moved there. Hell, if the Crucible was moved by the Reapers to near Palaven we'd be getting Priority: Palaven instead of Priority: Earth late game.

 

As for Earth being fucked, yes it was, but I agree with Anderson's decision to stay behind. It took the Reapers hundreds of years to finish wiping out the Protheans. It will take a while to wipe out Earth. The Reapers are looking to destroy all intelligent life, not all life period, and we see that Reapers (especially ground troops) can indeed be killed. The survivors on Earth couldn't very well give up and accept death, and if a great general and leader like Anderson abandoned them after the death of the Alliance leadership, the blow to moral and the likelihood of any resistance would be gone.

[Mordokai]

Nah. It makes no sense to rush headlong towards Earth, our homeworlds be damned. No matter what Shepard and Udina might have you believe.

 

I could(theoretically) hold their two years of inactivity and their stupidity in ME2 against them. But then, I realize somebody needed to be chosen as a dedicated idiot ball carrier for that game, or else Shepard would have had no good reason to stick with Cerberus(or, at the very least, not any worse reason). Council just made the best victim, so they were the sacrificial lamb. So I can't, in good conscience, hold even that against them.

[Display Name Owner]

Nope. I'm not sure the Council were ever nearly as unreasonable as Shepard could sometimes make them out to be, all the way through the series. But on this example, I watched the video again just to refresh my memory, and Shep and Udina's position seems to be that Earth was hit first and hardest, so everyone needs to get together to fight the Reapers there, to scatter them I guess. But that's silly because they have no idea how many Reapers are there and everywhere else, so there's no reason to think a victory on Earth would even have that effect. Plus, Palaven and other worlds were under attack as they spoke. The Council were right imo, abandoning their own defences would have been idiotic, especially with no guarantee of victory.

 

The Turian even comes and gives Shep a pretty reasonable offer, and Shep gets all indignant about it. Not fond of that scene.

 

I actually don't know why they wanted us to hate the Council so much tbh.