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Do you blame the council for not defending Earth when first asked?


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#26
themikefest

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Even though we know Anderson is a soldier first and foremost I still thought it was incredibly out of character for him to say "I'll stay here and help out" because it makes no sense for ground troopers to give any resistance to the Reapers - Anderson should know this after the battle with Sovereign in ME1 IMHO - and the reaperified organics are just canonfodder to buy Reapers some time to wipe out everyone while they're distracted.

It was also very bad for him to say 'its up to you Shepard to stop the reapers' in ME2.  He has lines in the trilogy that don't fit his character.  My Shepard doesn't care about the guy
 

Luckily for Earth that the Ilos Beacon was in London,

There was an Ilos beacon in London?
 

or the Crucible would most likely not have been moved there. Hell, if the Crucible was moved by the Reapers to near Palaven we'd be getting Priority: Palaven instead of Priority: Earth late game.

Had the asari revealed the artifact earlier, its possible that the Crucible might've been taken to the Serpent Nebula where the Citadel is located
 

The survivors on Earth couldn't very well give up and accept death, and if a great general and leader like Anderson abandoned them after the death of the Alliance leadership, the blow to moral and the likelihood of any resistance would be gone.

Anderson a great General and leader? No



#27
MissScarletTanager

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It was also very bad for him to say 'its up to you Shepard to stop the reapers' in ME2.  He has lines in the trilogy that don't fit his character.  My Shepard doesn't care about the guy
 

There was an Ilos beacon in London?

 

It was the Conduit; I got my terms mixed up xD. Point was that the one thing capable of getting into the Citadel after the arms were closed and it was taken over by the Reapers happened to be on Earth in London.

 

 

 

Had the asari revealed the artifact earlier, its possible that the Crucible might've been taken to the Serpent Nebula where the Citadel is located

That's true as well. I wasn't defending the Asari here.

 

 

 

Anderson a great General and leader? No

And here we'll have to agree to disagree. I think he was a great general and leader with the way he handles the situation, you do not.



#28
Vortex13

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I don't blame the council for withholding aid, Earth was a lost cause and tactfully unimportant until the last mission of the game. Earth offered no strategic advantage, and unlike Palavan's contested battle for orbital supremacy, the Reapers had complete control of the Sol system. Realistically, Admiral Hackett should have taken the remainder of the Alliance fleet and gone to safeguard the Crucible and assist the Turians in holding an asset that the Reapers had completely decimated. The amount of Earth centric narrative points, and characters like Shepard going on and on about saving Earth was quite annoying.

 

 

Seriously, f*** Earth.

 

 

Out of all the Council species' home worlds, Earth was the quickest to fall, and unlike the Turians, Salarians, and Asari humanity's home planet had absolutely nothing to contribute to the war effort. Sur'kesh had Salarian scientific know how, and intact infrastructure, Thessia still had accessible supply routes and was actively engaging in guerrilla tactics, and even Palaven was holding the line against the bulk of the Reaper onslaught; and even then the Turians still had (somewhat tenuous) hold of orbital superiority around the planet. Earth had none of those things. In fact the only thing that the Sol system could bring to the war table was the Crucible plans, and even then the Alliance was in noway capable of providing the enormous amount of resources required to build it. 

 

 

Speaking of the Crucible, did anyone else get a subtle 'blackmail' theme when Shepard and the Alliance presented the blueprints to the Council? "We have lost total control of our home system, our military has been decimated, and the Reapers control the field, but we have the only method of killing the Reapers in our possession. You WILL help us reclaim Earth." While not directly stated, it does seem like the fact that the Crucible plans were discovered on Mars somehow entitled Shepard; as a spokesman for Humanity; to demand the rest of the galaxy's help in retaking Earth. 

 

 

Saving Earth should have been secondary to stopping the Reaper threat.  But no, we have to retake Earth because its our home, and everyone has to band together to help us get it back. All those other species who lost their home worlds? "Screw them! They can't help us!"

 

 

 

I love how Renegade Shepard's response to the loss of the Hanar home world is "They did it to themselves." Really Shepard? Well going by that logic, we humans are to blame for the loss of Earth, and no effort whatsoever should be made to retake it.


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#29
themikefest

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And here we'll have to agree to disagree. I think he was a great general and leader with the way he handles the situation, you do not.

He was never a General. He was a Captain and in ME3 he is an Admiral


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#30
Vazgen

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He was never a General. He was a Captain and in ME3 he is an Admiral

And then became Admiral. 

Anderson was a decent enough leader. He managed to organize resistance and feed the Alliance information about Reaper troop movements and tactics. He also managed to keep a quantum entanglement communicator while being on the run from the Reapers.

I, however, don't like the way he presents himself as that leader. If it was presented like he was just the highest ranking officer and assumed command I would have no problems with it, but it's presented like he is the only one capable of rallying the troops and organizing people which doesn't fit his character IMO. He's presented like John Connor figure but I don't think that role suits him. I'd put him in command of a small spec ops team or send him to Hackett but not a leader of the resistance.



#31
MissScarletTanager

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And then became Admiral. 

Anderson was a decent enough leader. He managed to organize resistance and feed the Alliance information about Reaper troop movements and tactics. He also managed to keep a quantum entanglement communicator while being on the run from the Reapers.

I, however, don't like the way he presents himself as that leader. If it was presented like he was just the highest ranking officer and assumed command I would have no problems with it, but it's presented like he is the only one capable of rallying the troops and organizing people which doesn't fit his character IMO. He's presented like John Connor figure but I don't think that role suits him. I'd put him in command of a small spec ops team or send him to Hackett but not a leader of the resistance.

They didn't really have any choice though, did they? Earth was attacked out of nowhere, it's not like they could pick and choose who stays behind to lead everyone. Shepard couldn't or we wouldn't have a game, and she needed to go to the council. Hackett wasn't there at the time. The top brass of the Alliance died in that room in the beginning. Anderson leading the Earth resistance always felt to me like a "Someone has to do it" situation. I agree, his skills would have been better elsewhere (he was the human councilor in my ME2 playthrough), but they didn't really have a choice.

 

He was never a General. He was a Captain and in ME3 he is an Admiral

An Admiral is an equivalent rank to General in the Navy; I got my military terms mixed up.



#32
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The problem I have with the presentation is the line

"There are million more like them and they need a leader"

I always interpreted the line in a way that Anderson perceives himself to be capable of being such a leader which is not what I felt his character is capable of. Further events prove that he does a decent job but at the point of assuming command it always struck me as odd. 

 

If the game presented him being talking to a group of Alliance soldiers along with those two we meet earlier with one of them saying "What are the orders, Admiral?" it would've fit much better IMO. 



#33
78stonewobble

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I blame the alliance for how bad the earth attack was.

 

There really wasn't, as far as I know, any prototypes, designs studies or just theories on equipment capable of beating the reapers and / or a reaper. Which is utterly silly, because the mere existence of Sovereign, no matter whether it was Geth or a Reaper, showed that ships of that class and weapons of that caliber were possible.

 

Nor even a standard order of: "If you ever see a capital ship in that class, you RUN, first thing... Untill you can amass overwhelming force."

 

The alliance fleet should have fled much quicker with less losses, at most test the weapons on reapers and then ran.



#34
MrFob

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@Vortex13 (and others): I still find it weird that so many of you have such a big problem with the earth thing. I never really did. You even say it yourself, earth was just about the first planet to be attacked and conquered by the reapers. By the time Shepard first meets with the council, that is where the front line is at that point, so them (Shep and Udina) asking for help there makes sense. Later on, earth is mainly important because the citadel is there. That's why the final battle is there.

In the middle of the game, earth is mainly used to as kind of a symbol for human characters and hat does make sense as well. Even if Shep is not from there (i.e. colonist background), Anderson, his/her mentor fights there and it is by far the most densly populated planet of his/her species. Yes, it is a bot overdone in some places (mainly Menae) but I don't think it's nearly as much of an issue as people make it out to be (see also my post on page 1).

 

@Vasgen: I didn't have a problem with Anderson saying that but then, in my first playthrough, he was councilor for 2 years and had the responsibility for a lot more people during that time. Perception may be different if Udina was your councilor. He also has a unique knowladge about the reapers through his connection to Shepard and the events in Retribution (a shame they didn't follow up on the end of that book further, it was kind of dropped for the game).



#35
Vortex13

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@Vortex13 (and others): I still find it weird that so many of you have such a big problem with the earth thing. I never really did. You even say it yourself, earth was just about the first planet to be attacked and conquered by the reapers. By the time Shepard first meets with the council, that is where the front line is at that point, so them (Shep and Udina) asking for help there makes sense. Later on, earth is mainly important because the citadel is there. That's why the final battle is there.

In the middle of the game, earth is mainly used to as kind of a symbol for human characters and that does make sense as well. Even if Shep is not from there (i.e. colonist background), Anderson, his/her mentor fights there and it is by far the most densly populated planet of his/her species. Yes, it is a bit overdone in some places (mainly Menae) but I don't think it's nearly as much of an issue as people make it out to be (see also my post on page 1).

 

 

By the time Shepard and Udina meet with the council the Earth has been completely taken over by the Reapers. At best you have a scant few resistance cells running around under Anderson's leadership but that's it. I would argue that the 'front line' as it were (kind of a nebulous moniker since the Reapers were invading everywhere) would have been Palaven. It's a hotly contested zone and the races of the galaxy have actually stalled the Reaper advance. 

 

 

I have no issue with Earth being seen as a symbol of defiance in the face of the Reapers for the human characters, but the fact that all of the alliances Shepard builds is to 'Retake Earth' just makes no sense. Shepard has to enlist Krogan aid to supplement the Turian ground forces (that makes sense) …… so that the Turians can turnaround and help 'Retake Earth' (that is beyond stupid). Why are we asking the Turians to abandon their one strong defensive line to go and losing everything to try and liberate a planet that holds no strategic value in the grand scheme of the galaxy?

 

 

Yes, the Reapers moving the Citadel to London made Earth worth the effort since it was the key to deploying the Crucible, but before that? And really, the Reapers moving the Citadel to Earth was total plot contrivance; if they could move the Relay Hub anywhere in the galaxy, why not send it into Dark Space outside of the galaxy's reach?



#36
MrFob

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I was more under the impression that the idea was to get the Turians to help deploy the crucible. That is also the only way it makes sense to get the Krogan to Palaven. We have a ground war on Palaven and the Krogan are good for that but they have no ships. The Turians have ships which can help with the crucible deployment but the Turians are bogged down in the ground war. So, get the Krogan to fight the ground war, so that the Turians can fight in space for the crucible. That's what they do, it's not like after Tuchanka, the Turians are deployed on earth, they wait because we have to find out about the catalyst.

 

I agree that the way it is phrased - concentrating on freeing earth - is a bit weird at times (again, mainly on Menae) BUT, ultimately, it really means "help with the crucible" which is also what Shepard really asks for when dealing with the council. Freeing earth is sort of the secondary outcome of that.

 

So yes, it is a bit weird in the way some characters talk about the situation sometimes but all in all, especially when considering what they actually do, earth is not given any special consideration until it makes sense (when the Citadel is there).

And in terms of what the characters say, there is a lot that is weird, also in the other direction (Liara asking the Alliance to spring for air support comes to mind). When it comes to grind worthy dialogue, there are worse problems than some humans obsessing over their own planet IMO.



#37
sH0tgUn jUliA

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I agree. I don't blame them at all. That being said, I found the whole "save earth!" angle to be pretty stupid anyway. The argument should had been "help with the crucible" not "protect this one planet". Getting the crucible built should be the top priority, not gaining support for earth.

 

Liara tried, but it didn't come from Shepard. Liara being only 109 at the time is not that well respected. Shepard should have said "We need to join forces. It is our only chance. And we need to send all our technical and engineering experts to help build the Crucible. It is perhaps the only chance we have for defeating the reapers. We've conferred with Admiral Hackett and he agrees. Liara?"

 

"Save Earth!" was because the players are what? Human! and from where? Earth! Save humanity!

 

They wanted us to hate the council because someone had to be dumber than Shepard.



#38
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I agree that the way it is phrased - concentrating on freeing earth - is a bit weird at times (again, mainly on Menae) BUT, ultimately, it really means "help with the crucible" which is also what Shepard really asks for when dealing with the council. Freeing earth is sort of the secondary outcome of that.

 

As I said earlier, the writing is rather incoherent as to whether the goal is to gather an alliance to take back Earth, or to concentrate on building the Crucible. Perhaps different portions were written at different points in development, perhaps even by different writers.



#39
Vortex13

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Liara tried, but it didn't come from Shepard. Liara being only 109 at the time is not that well respected. Shepard should have said "We need to join forces. It is our only chance. And we need to send all our technical and engineering experts to help build the Crucible. It is perhaps the only chance we have for defeating the reapers. We've conferred with Admiral Hackett and he agrees. Liara?"

 

"Save Earth!" was because the players are what? Human! and from where? Earth! Save humanity!

 

They wanted us to hate the council because someone had to be dumber than Shepard.

 

-Off Topic-

 

Its funny that over the course of hundreds of years of scientific advancement we realized that Earth is not the center of the universe, but looking at the overwhelming majority of science fiction settings based on those scientific advances and suddenly Earth is the most important thing in the universe again.


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#40
MrFob

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@cap and gown: I agree. I am not sure if this is because the writing team was much bigger for ME3 than it was for ME1 or because the chemistry between the writers was different between the teams or because as the lead writer, Drew was better at coordinating the different writers than Mac was. I really don't know but I also feel that the writing in ME3 overall is much less coherent than it was in ME1. It's like different writers had a different interpretation of what the main plot really was, so their characters do as well.

 

Ultimately, I think it would do BW good to use smaller writing teams and maybe give them more time instead.



#41
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And here we'll have to agree to disagree. I think he was a great general and leader with the way he handles the situation, you do not.

 

I'm going to have to dispute this as well. I think Anderson was a rather bull-headed and stubborn man who put his heart above his head.

 

I especially think the idea that he is a great commanding officer is absurd, especially in ME3. And yes, I do believe that I am more qualified to make this distinction than most.



#42
MissScarletTanager

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And since I guarantee that I'm much more informed on this topic of military leadership than you are, I dispute your assessment and challenge you to argue it.

You cannot guarantee anything, as you do not know me. I personally think he was a great admiral and a good leader. Whatever I have to say as to my opinion of Anderson's character, you will only try to refute with your opinion of Anderson's character.

 

He is a war hero, one of the most decorated members of the Alliance military, the first graduate of the N7 program, served with distinction during the First Contact War, and even impressed Jon Grissom with his tactical abilities prior to the war. As an Executive Officer on the SSV Hastings, he led the ground crew during the Sidon facility mission and discovered the traitor there. During the mission to rescue Kahlee Sanders (the one where Anderson's candidacy for Spectre was tested by Saren), it was through fault of Saren, not Anderson, that the mission went sour. It was General Invectus and Anderson who convinced the military to let Joker pilot the Normandy instead of court martialing for hijacking the frigate, which turned out to be a great call with all the piloting poor Joker's put that ship through in the series. It's Anderson who leads the rescue teams on the Citadel after Sovereign is destroyed. In the events of Mass Effect: Retribution, Anderson leads the Alliance trade negotiations with other races like the turians, something that would be damn hard if he didn't have any leadership or negotiating abilities. In the same story he saves Grissom Academy from Cerberus and the rogue Paul Grayson.

 

The fact that Anderson leads a resistance on Earth for as long as he does, still manages to keep communication with Shepard and others on the outside, and is still alive despite the Reaper invasion by the time Shepard returns with the Crucible and reinforcements speaks volumes to his ability to lead. If he really had no leadership qualities and couldn't command, then the resistance would have been long gone before Shepard got to Earth. 


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#43
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You cannot guarantee anything, as you do not know me. I personally think he was a great admiral and a good leader. Whatever I have to say as to my opinion of Anderson's character, you will only try to refute with your opinion of Anderson's character.

 

 

On the contrary, as you so helpfully posted in your sig, I know enough about you to know that I do indeed likely have a much higher knowledge on the topic.

 

And I guarantee, my opinion is much more informed than yours is. As well, having an opinion does not mean that it is a correct or valid one.

 

 

 

The fact that Anderson leads a resistance on Earth for as long as he does, still manages to keep communication with Shepard and others on the outside, and is still alive despite the Reaper invasion by the time Shepard returns with the Crucible and reinforcements speaks volumes to his ability to lead. If he really had no leadership qualities and couldn't command, then the resistance would have been long gone before Shepard got to Earth. 

 

 

He never should have stayed behind on Earth to begin with. No leader worth his **** stays behind to likely die (and not be useful) to be a hero.

 

No, as a leader, he has a much more important job, one that he is neglecting. A CO's job is to lead, and getting off Earth and organizing a response is the practical and optimal solution to this. Anderson doesn't do this. And this actually doesn't speak anything about applied tactical and strategic leadership. I can show you a few of the powerpoints I threw together explaining this. They're not classified. As well, you're also neglecting many different factors that would go into the survival of a resistance force that has rather scant capabilities to move and communicate. One man can't run an entire networked resistance on a world as broadly overrun as Earth. And going by Anderson's testimonial, he is barely keeping the part that he's gathered alive. Constant moving, changing, and fighting is not something in which a stable command environment can be formed. It was part of my job to put that kind of pressure on some of the local insurgent leaders when I was in Afghanistan.

 

Granted, he managed to cobble enough forces to secure a forward landing zone in the strike area prior to the primary liberation force assaulting the objective.

 

That said, he wasted his talents on Earth, when he could have focused them militarily and politically.

 

Then again, BW is more prone to making emotional settings for their characters rather than having them function in a proper military order. You don't waste your time and effort leading a resistance on one planet, especially one that is going to be lost for the forseeable future. Of course, I blame poor writing on the 'let's save Earth first!' fiasco.



#44
MissScarletTanager

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The population of the Earth in Mass Effect is 11.4 billion people. Let's be generous and say half of them died in the initial assault. that leaves 5.7 billion. With the Alliance council and leadership obliterated, leaving the planet with no one to lead them essentially damns the rest of the population. Both Shepard and Anderson didn't need to go to the Citadel and ask for help; either of them would have done just fine. Anderson is a war hero and just as well known, if not more so (as least around humans), than Shepard. And Shepard has first hand knowledge of exactly what the Reapers are capable of through both her interactions with them and the Collectors as well as her visions from the Prothean beacon, so it makes more sense for her to go to the Council and coordinate the galactic war effort. It simply makes more sense that, between the two of them, that Anderson stays behind.

 

Without someone leading the fight on Earth, or at least trying to keep casualties to a minimum and keep contact with those on the outside, chances are the planet would have been completely reaped by the time Shepard gets back with the Crucible. As well, had someone not led those 5.7 billion survivors (again, guessing here. Not even the Reapers could wipe out more than half a planets population in the span of an hour at best), there would'n't have been a forward landing zone for the attack against the Reapers on Earth, as you said.



#45
MrFob

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I think the cinematic trailer says something about 8 million dead the first day (or was it week?). So the population of earth at that point would still be close to 11.4 billion people, which is probably more than 90% of the human race (given that colony populations are usually in the low millions).

That btw is why I don't have a problem with the human characters giving earth some importance.

 

So this is not like the US retreating from some small time village in Afghanistan, this like the US retreating from the North American continent (to Hawaii and Guantanamo). It makes sense to me that one military leader stays, especially since establishing communication with and from the outside is that difficult. Hackett is commanding the fleet, Shepard is putting out fires, Udina is the main diplomat (until he goes nuts) and Anderson is in charge of the ground forces on earth. I don't really see the problem here either.


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#46
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The population of the Earth in Mass Effect is 11.4 billion people. Let's be generous and say half of them died in the initial assault. that leaves 5.7 billion. With the Alliance council and leadership obliterated, leaving the planet with no one to lead them essentially damns the rest of the population. Both Shepard and Anderson didn't need to go to the Citadel and ask for help; either of them would have done just fine. Anderson is a war hero and just as well known, if not more so (as least around humans), than Shepard. And Shepard has first hand knowledge of exactly what the Reapers are capable of through both her interactions with them and the Collectors as well as her visions from the Prothean beacon, so it makes more sense for her to go to the Council and coordinate the galactic war effort. It simply makes more sense that, between the two of them, that Anderson stays behind.

 

Without someone leading the fight on Earth, or at least trying to keep casualties to a minimum and keep contact with those on the outside, chances are the planet would have been completely reaped by the time Shepard gets back with the Crucible. As well, had someone not led those 5.7 billion survivors (again, guessing here. Not even the Reapers could wipe out more than half a planets population in the span of an hour at best), there would'n't have been a forward landing zone for the attack against the Reapers on Earth, as you said.

 

The premise of your argument is false; The Reapers are specifically mentioned to be actively working to harvest people on Earth, and working to maintain their preservation without having to resort to violence. They want humans alive. And at the average rate of processing (I think they mention this in a line), the Earth would be completely harvested in 11 years. While that's a technically really short time span for a population to be at its apex to its depletion, the Crucible isn't going to take 11 years to build. In game, it takes about a year from start to finish to final deployment. We have time.

 

And yes, the plan would be to have both of them to go to the Citadel. No, you don't technically need Anderson for any of the political or resource/ally gathering scheme. What you do need is an experienced, veteran officer working from offstage to form doctrine and train existing/surviving forces and making a real, tangible effect on the Reapers. And yes, that means abandoning Earth for the time being to its fate. Yes, that means damning the survivors, so to speak.

 

It simply makes most sense for both of them to leave and enhance the forces that can actually do some good, not get wasted doing nothing of value on Earth for people who are going to die no matter what you do. As Garrus calls it, that's part of the brutal calculus of war.

 

And no, the planet would not have been entirely harvested. As I mentioned, at the current rate, there would have been a fairly large number of people still remaining (and presumably resisting regardless).

 

And I have an issue with that right last line there; The game takes no account of the army that you've assembled. You don't need to establish a forward firebase with the numbers you're running with before hand. You can easily build one with the massive force you have. The game doesn't take that into account. You have a massive opportunity of naval gunfire and CAS missions to clear you a continent, let alone part of a city. I really don't think the writers quite understood the basic parameters of what is, to my own experience, a specialized air assault based insertion. It's something they more or less ignored for the sake of drama, without actually understanding the scale of the mechanized, mobile support they had at their disposal in the war assets. Then again, I suppose the people at BW don't know much about military utility in a strategic setting. Afterall, they were the people who thought the line 'It's not about strategy or tactics, it's about survival!' was a good line. Because to survive, even against the Reapers, you really do need... strategy and tactics, not appeals to emotion.

 

But suffice to say, you didn't need to worry about establishing a forward operating base when you're landing the assembled armies of every galactic civilization on one area. Even against Reaper ground forces, that's an overwhelming number. Nor should minimizing collateral damage be considered a primary objective, seeing as you are quite literally fighting an enemy out to wipe you out. You should be focused on winning, not on civilians. It clouds judgment and keeps you from performing your task optimally. Which is why Anderson was a dolt. Let them die. Their deaths buy us time. 



#47
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I think the cinematic trailer says something about 8 million dead the first day (or was it week?). So the population of earth at that point would still be close to 11.4 billion people, which is probably more than 90% of the human race (given that colony populations are usually in the low millions).

That btw is why I don't have a problem with the human characters giving earth some importance.

 

So this is not like the US retreating from some small time village in Afghanistan, this like the US retreating from the North American continent (to Hawaii and Guantanamo). It makes sense to me that one military leader stays, especially since establishing communication with and from the outside is that difficult. Hackett is commanding the fleet, Shepard is putting out fires, Udina is the main diplomat (until he goes nuts) and Anderson is in charge of the ground forces on earth. I don't really see the problem here either.

 

8 million dead in the first week would barely be a drop in the bucket for 11 billion. 

 

I don't mind the hope to one day save Earth among characters, but they put too much emphasis on immediately dropping everything with no planning and rushing to save it.

 

Also, I'd say there's a distinct difference in your analogy. It'd be like the U.S. abandoning everywhere in the U.S. East of the Rockies. And to me, I'd be focusing all my assets on regrouping my forces and preparing for a strategic re-emergence campaign to target the enemy.

 

The thing is that Anderson could be in command of ground forces somewhere else, somewhere we he would be much better suited.

 

My view? Let Earth burn for the time being. There's nothing of strategic value there anymore. Focus on the Crucible and work on a solution to the Reapers, not waste resources on a ground war on one planet that will ultimately be meaningless since they're attacking everywhere else as well.


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#48
MrFob

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8 million dead in the first week would barely be a drop in the bucket for 11 billion.

Exactly my point. There is some maneuverability on earth. Anderson says it himself, they spread people out, try to keep the reapers off balance, delay them as best we can. You are turning your arguments around. Your first one was that Anderson should get out because it is not safe enough, now he should get out because it is relatively safe. So what is it?
 

I don't mind the hope to one day save Earth among characters, but they put too much emphasis on immediately dropping everything with no planning and rushing to save it.

When do they ever do that? It's something all of you keep saying "they blindly go for earth" but they never do. Yes, they mention that earth is at stake and sometimes they are a bit overzealous in their comments but they (Shep, Hackett & Co.) never do what all you guys are accusing them of (see my previous posts).
 

Also, I'd say there's a distinct difference in your analogy. It'd be like the U.S. abandoning everywhere in the U.S. East of the Rockies. And to me, I'd be focusing all my assets on regrouping my forces and preparing for a strategic re-emergence campaign to target the enemy.

Well, I didn't start with the Afghanistan analogies, I just ran with it (and I think the population percentages are slightly less ridiculous with Hawaii but I am happy to drop the bad analogies ;) ).
 

The thing is that Anderson could be in command of ground forces somewhere else, somewhere we he would be much better suited.

And where would that be? Some colony? How is that any better?
 

My view? Let Earth burn for the time being. There's nothing of strategic value there anymore. Focus on the Crucible and work on a solution to the Reapers, not waste resources on a ground war on one planet that will ultimately be meaningless since they're attacking everywhere else as well.

Well, apart from a difference for morale, as I said, it's not like Anderson is the only leader, he is one of them and he is volunteering for the earth position. I still don't see how that makes him a bad leader. Also, it is not really a bad call to keep resistances on the reaper occupied worlds going because it slows them down, you can try and get some intel out and - as we see in the end - it's easier to mount an assault if you have an ally on the inside. Ok, I admit, that last one is not really predictable but I think given that the situation is also a fictional scenario and we have only so much exposure, I find it tough to make a definitive call for or against Anderson's decisions.
I always thought you military types didn't like armchair second guessing. ;)



#49
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Exactly my point. There is some maneuverability on earth. Anderson says it himself, they spread people out, try to keep the reapers off balance, delay them as best we can. You are turning your arguments around. Your first one was that Anderson should get out because it is not safe enough, now he should get out because it is relatively safe. So what is it?

 

 

 

I think we had a different inference in context on your point. I am literally saying that 8 million is not, relatively speaking, a very large number compared to 11 billion. I never stated that Anderson should leave because its safe. It's most certainly not safe. I don't see where you're making the inference that I think it's any safer for him.

 

The point I was making was that we have plenty of time to gather resources going by the current rate of harvest before Earth is depleted (which then leads me to the question of why we're basing our time estimate figures for the Crucible on the number of people on Earth).
 


When do they ever do that? It's something all of you keep saying "they blindly go for earth" but they never do. Yes, they mention that earth is at stake and sometimes they are a bit overzealous in their comments but they (Shep, Hackett & Co.) never do what all you guys are accusing them of (see my previous posts).

 

 

Through their statements. Now you're taking what I'm saying too literally. They're being stupid for even prioritizing retaking Earth, for even mentioning it at all in the context of 'come to Earth now and help us'. Hell, Shepard more or less tells Victus to drop the defense of Palaven to help him retake Earth. The only reason he doesn't do it is because the Council flat out tells him no when he says that they should drop everything and rush to Earth (before even mentioning the Crucible). It's not a matter of them acting or not, it's the matter of them not focusing more on the task of beating the Reapers. I think it's a narrative and characterization flaw. It's more than a bit overzealous.

 


Well, I didn't start with the Afghanistan analogies, I just ran with it (and I think the population percentages are slightly less ridiculous with Hawaii but I am happy to drop the bad analogies ;) ).

 

 

I wasn't using Afghanistan as an analogy to begin with, I was mentioning how the context of my primary mission there fit with the context of the Reapers interdiction efforts on Earth against the resistance forces.

 


And where would that be? Some colony? How is that any better?

 

 

No. On operations that included strategic planning, doctrinal creation, and force allocation. Someone to coordinate operations on a galactic scale against Reaper interests; not just on Earth. Other worlds. 

 

You don't put a Flag officer on the front lines. You put him in a command environment where he's commanding and directing efforts for everyone else.

 

Well, apart from a difference for morale, as I said, it's not like Anderson is the only leader, he is one of them and he is volunteering for the earth position. I still don't see how that makes him a bad leader. Also, it is not really a bad call to keep resistances on the reaper occupied worlds going because it slows them down, you can try and get some intel out and - as we see in the end - it's easier to mount an assault if you have an ally on the inside. Ok, I admit, that last one is not really predictable but I think given that the situation is also a fictional scenario and we have only so much exposure, I find it tough to make a definitive call for or against Anderson's decisions.
I always thought you military types didn't like armchair second guessing. ;)

 

 

 He's not the only leader, but leaders function best when they're in an environment where they can direct, disseminate, and delegate orders and commands they hold, and know that, despite what their heart tells them, to follow what's the most objective and useful complement towards the mission. It's the leader's duty to survive. And he's throwing that away to lead a resistance force on Earth that isn't strategically effective as far as we know, not knowing at the time that Earth would play as the center stage for the climax of the conflict. He's abandoning his duty to humanity to serve in an effective position in helping direct the large-scale war effort to play hero on a planet that has already been utterly conquered by the Reapers. On issues like that, look at Charles de Gaulle. He's who I'd make a comparison too. He didn't stay in France and fight (even though he really wanted too). Granted, his utility was less than ideal in England, but he focused on directing Free French Forces elsewhere on other strategic fronts than staying and risking death or capture to assist a relatively independent and fractured resistance movement that, while being tactically effective and a viable source of intelligence for the allies (even aiding downed allied air crews and escaped POW's evade capture), only had limited strategic progress against the German occupiers.

 

And yes, it is typically much more useful to have assistance on the inside; however in the scale and scope of the offensive allied forces and the Reaper occupiers in London, that balance of assistance would be relatively marginal in the long run (realistically). For some reason, BW decided that, instead of massed and organized armies from nearly every species with support from CAS missions and naval gunfire, they'd portray the London assault as little more than a few Battalions of human forces and relatively small number of alien allied support (in effect, basically ignoring the millions of warriors that could potentially be delivered onto London en masse with tremendous fire support).

 

And philosophically, we do need the armchairs to an extent to keep us grounded and be something tangible to fight for or aspire too. That said, on matters of military application (and military necessity, which I'm sure you know what I'm talking about given our prior PM), we sometimes do prefer when the civilians let us do our thing and not ask questions.



#50
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Another thing is that the Asari Councillor (the original one, Tevos) says something like "It's unfortunate, but the sad truth is that while the Reapers are focusing on Earth it gives the rest of us time to prepare", which given the stakes and the scale of the threat seems sound. Kind of funny that the politician associated with the so-called diplomatic race is talking better tactics than Shep, the seasoned and decorated military commander who rubs shoulders with the Alliance's top admirals.