372 réponses à ce sujet

[TMA LIVE]

I'm interested in finding out why people consider synthesis as space magic. Mainly because I don't. Can I get some of the basics, so I can discuss if that's really space magic, or more of confusion and misinterpretation?

[Larry-3]

Some fans call it space magic. I like to think of it as some form of advanced controlled energy that alters genetics.

[Alamar2078]

Under the premise that any sufficiently advanced technology is indistinguishable from magic then I think synthesis certainly qualifies.  Add to that there is nothing in the ME lore [that I'm aware of] that even scratches the surface or hints at this type of technology and you have space magic.

 

The first step of the process of looking more deeply at synthesis is to go over some of its properties:

 

-- It is non-destructive organics and synthetics

-- The host appears to be instantaneously transformed

-- This is done on the scale of hundreds [thousands?] of light years per relay blast

 

From what I can tell the above are the "facts" as I know them.

 

Based on what little I know from "life sciences" the only technology that I can think of that could instantaneously transform a host would be a full deconstruction and reconstruction of the host at a quantum level.  The energy, computational power, "memory storage" requirements, etc. are wildly beyond any person's imagination.  Now add in the complexity of having quantum level control over spans of hundreds of light years and similar there's just no feasible way to get something like this to work.  Even if you do a total mass to energy conversion of the Citadel & Relays I doubt you'd meet the energy requirements needed let alone any of the other requirements.  From what I can tell there are no feedback & control mechanisms or nothing that would "do the work" of what's needed.

 

Effectively if you had that kind of power we shouldn't even call it magic.  I think a better term would be GOD.

 

If I'm confused about my science please let me know.  I'm not an expert on organic chemistry, string theory, electromagnetism, etc. but if you "baby talk" me I should be able to follow

[Iakus]

Not to mention the Catalyst couches it in such nonsense as "organic energy", which is somehow compatible with all life, organic and synthetic, dextro and levo.Every shackled AI, every Reaper, every human, tree, and bacteria.  Everywhere.

[TMA LIVE]

Some fans call it space magic. I like to think of it as some form of advanced controlled energy that alters genetics.

Yeah, that's something of how I look at it. When it comes to that energy, I see it altering genetics the same way a mutation does, either by radiation or a virus.

[God]

It was executed poorly in ME3, but overall, the idea and the concept is very real. It follows the premise of a technological singularity.

[RanetheViking]

I still think it's 'space magic'. But what do I know, I still can't work out how to use an iPhone.

 

Oh, wait! ...

[Iakus]

Yeah, that's something of how I look at it. When it comes to that energy, I see it altering genetics the same way a mutation does, either by radiation or a virus.

 

But synthetics don't have genetics.  And even genetics can be very very different from each other.  Turian and human DNA would be very different from each other.And I don't even want to think about how odd asari genetics must be.

[sH0tgUn jUliA]

Synthesis was better handled in Battlestar Galactica with the shape of things to come - Sharon Valeri and Helo's baby. IMO, Mass Effect 3 overreached with its version of synthesis, but they couldn't help it because of the abomination aesthetic - turning people into monsters.

 

None of the endings really make any sense. Shoot a tube with a pistol to destroy the reapers. Grab control rods to control the reapers. Take a flying leap off a tall building to create synthesis. The ending is stupid. Having to listen to space idiot tell you what to do doesn't help. Challenging him just makes it more painful.

 

IT is the only ending that makes any sense. Actually, Shepard being unconscious on the platform and the ending being all a dream is the only one that makes any sense,

[TMA LIVE]

Under the premise that any sufficiently advanced technology is indistinguishable from magic then I think synthesis certainly qualifies.  Add to that there is nothing in the ME lore [that I'm aware of] that even scratches the surface or hints at this type of technology and you have space magic.

 

The first step of the process of looking more deeply at synthesis is to go over some of its properties:

 

-- It is non-destructive organics and synthetics

-- The host appears to be instantaneously transformed

-- This is done on the scale of hundreds [thousands?] of light years per relay blast

 

From what I can tell the above are the "facts" as I know them.

 

Based on what little I know from "life sciences" the only technology that I can think of that could instantaneously transform a host would be a full deconstruction and reconstruction of the host at a quantum level.  The energy, computational power, "memory storage" requirements, etc. are wildly beyond any person's imagination.  Now add in the complexity of having quantum level control over spans of hundreds of light years and similar there's just no feasible way to get something like this to work.  Even if you do a total mass to energy conversion of the Citadel & Relays I doubt you'd meet the energy requirements needed let alone any of the other requirements.  From what I can tell there are no feedback & control mechanisms or nothing that would "do the work" of what's needed.

 

Effectively if you had that kind of power we shouldn't even call it magic.  I think a better term would be GOD.

 

If I'm confused about my science please let me know.  I'm not an expert on organic chemistry, string theory, electromagnetism, etc. but if you "baby talk" me I should be able to follow

 

Well, there is one lore that uses Synthesis specifically, and that's the Evolution comic, though not quite the same. In that comic, a shock of energy gives Illusive Man his eyes, and creates the machine cult. This tech is again, Reaper tech. Which does also brings up Clark's Third Law.

 

Keep in mind, I do expect a lot of Synthesis to follow the "rule of cool" (like that wide shot of all the Relays being hit) or "rule of lazy", which a lot of ME follows. "I invented a cure for that decease!" "Oh really? What was the formula that no one else could guess at?" "Science stuff!". It's not that the cure is magic. It's more of lazy writing that avoids going into any scientific details.

 

1) (Non-destructive) As in doesn't harm? Yeah, I guess that's truth, unless you consider evolving bodily harm that is. I guess only time will tell on that one. Though it seems before the Shepard merged with the energy, it was burning him up, and somehow him becoming a ingredient made the beam less harmful.

 

2) (The host appears to be instantaneously transformed) This I'm not to sure on. I mean, they have energy surrounding them, but they're basically the same as they were in the other endings. I do see them as evolving because of the energy, but not something major within minutes. More as something overtime judging by Extended Cut.

 

3) (This is done on the scale of hundreds [thousands?] of light years per relay blast) Considering the energy is altering the Mass Relays, most likely the Energy is really changing their supernova blasts to create new energy waves. So it's not the same wave from the Citadel being sent everywhere, but more of it changing the energy within a Relay, and pasting it to the next before the Relay overloads, creating a supernova of Control, Destroy, or Synthesis. And we do know a super nova can cover an entire Cluster based on Arrival. As for that energy containing enough data, that I just follow rule of cool on. It just does.

[TMA LIVE]

But synthetics don't have genetics.  And even genetics can be very very different from each other.  Turian and human DNA would be very different from each other.And I don't even want to think about how odd asari genetics must be.

 

In Extended Cut, the Catalyst is more specific that on the synthetic side of things, they're just getting a better understanding of organics. My speculation based on Extended Cut is either by the energy reprogramming or upgrading them (more so this, since the Catalyst uses the term DNA when talking about both in general), or the energy allows them to somehow gather data from us, and thus understand us.

 

As for the difference in genetics with the other species, who's to say they all change the exact same way? We know it's meant to change everyone's DNA (pretty much their inner coding), but it's never stated if it's gonna change everyone the same way. Only that whatever changes those are, it's mostly likely not "bad". That, and that it'll allow us (somehow in a way I'm still pondering) to be fully integrated with technology. Does this happen the second the blast hits? I'm not sure. Maybe it's more of how we might use this energy, which we now all have, with whatever technology we now use and invent, and not how it specifically evolves us.

 

There's a possibility that the energy evolves Quarians to be outside their suits without years adapting based on the slide we see. But there's also the possibility that through using the knowledge of the Reapers, and the Geth working with the Quarians peacefully, and how this energy works with our bodies, that they simply invented technology that allowed them to adapt right away.

 

There's the possibility the Krogan became smarter and less violent because of Synthesis, and more craftsmen like. Or/And because of Reapers knowledge and advancement in technology, their world could simply be rebuild faster with Wrex and Eve being more dedicated to it, and using the energy in our bodies, be able to adapt to technology in ways we never could imagine. Synthesis does have this advantage, because we know in the control ending, despite Guardian Shepard having control over the Reapers, he didn't pass on any knowledge to the Krogans that allowed them to build as cool as synthesis.

 

There's a lot to speculate. If you wanted to know how the energy doesn't kill asari because green energy doesn't work that way, keep in mind, both Leviathans and the Reapers have been studying every species currently alive for thousands of years, and the ones that came before even longer. Assuming Leviathans were the ones who came up with Synthesis when they assuming came up with the Crusible, I can assume their homework made sure nothing like that could be an outcome. How exactly? Rule of lazy. They just did.

[Larry-3]

As a person who loves religion and science, I have learned a few things. One of them being to not rule out the impossible. When I think of synthesis, the word biotechnology comes to mind. If I had to speculate I would conclude that in some highly advanced way, commands are being sent through the wave that do one of two things: Either re-write genetic coding to form a different DNA strand, or tell the body to merge with a possible element being sent through the wave. I have no idea how such a process could be instantly done, but I imagine it is fundamentally similar to have a computer quickly rewrites coding. Technically speaking, humans are built like a machine, just made up differently. If a society is advanced enough they could -- for lack of a better term -- screw with living beings body makeup.

Also, I like how in the Synthesis ending we get trees with dim glowing leaves. I wonder if people would have longer lifespans, too... ?

[TMA LIVE]

Synthesis was better handled in Battlestar Galactica with the shape of things to come - Sharon Valeri and Helo's baby. IMO, Mass Effect 3 overreached with its version of synthesis, but they couldn't help it because of the abomination aesthetic - turning people into monsters.

 

None of the endings really make any sense. Shoot a tube with a pistol to destroy the reapers. Grab control rods to control the reapers. Take a flying leap off a tall building to create synthesis. The ending is stupid. Having to listen to space idiot tell you what to do doesn't help. Challenging him just makes it more painful.

 

IT is the only ending that makes any sense. Actually, Shepard being unconscious on the platform and the ending being all a dream is the only one that makes any sense,

 

Actually, the final scenes does make scenes IT wise, if you see the final scenes being in Shepard's head as the same as being in Shepard's head during the Leviathan scene. In that scene, Leviathan used both people in Shepard's memory, and items and equipment in order to show what it meant. If you look at the final scenes has a symbolism to allow Shepard to make whatever physical choice, then what really happened could still be unknown to us. Shooting a pipe could really be Shepard hitting the destory button outside his reality. Or giving his command to the Catalyst mentally on what to do with the Crucible based on the options it gives.

 

However, non IT wise, it still makes sense if you consider who intended the crucible (though I'm sure there's holes somewhere). If the Leviathans came up with the concept, it was build originally by their servants who they probably have no issue sacrificing for their own needs. I imagine they had the crucible designed so it worked with the Catalyst, allowing it to see the options it gives, but not allow him to pick one. Instead, each option had to be manually hit, to prevent the Catalyst from having a choice in choosing. If the Catalyst wanted to pick an option, it would have to convince Shepard, or use an Indoctrination Host (which died). Now if the crucible specifically needed a cyborg organic like Shepard for control or synthesis, I don't know. That's a hole right there.

[sH0tgUn jUliA]

Any sufficiently advanced technology is indistinguishable from a rigged demo.

 

"We have tried... a similar solution in the past but it has always failed."

 

Shepard: Why?

 

"The organics were not ready. It is not something that can be... forced. You are ready."

 

"Why am I ready, but they weren't? You thought they were ready, too."

 

"No data."

 

 

 

@TMA LIVE - The Leviathans did not come up with the Crucible.

 

Shepard: "Who designed the Crucible?"
 

Catalyst: "You would not know them, and there isn't time to explain." - "Pssst, Shepard, you are in a video game, and at this moment you are about to die in this stupid ending. I'm sorry, but there is no way out unless your creator played enough multi-player.... I see that they did. You have 7600 EMS at this time. Pray that they choose Destroy, but you are not in control."

 

Shepard: I knew something felt weird.

 

Synthesis in the EC hits immediately and makes every single life form in the galaxy down to a virus become partly synthetic. This is supposed to make synthetics to understand the new organo-synthetic hybrid life and thus create peace between synthetics and them. The cycle ends because organic life no longer exists. All formerly organic creatures are this hybrid.

 

Will the galaxy evolve new organic life? Probably. However it will take about a couple of billion years for it to reach any level of intelligence. By that time Andromeda would have collided with the Milky Way, and may have wiped out all life in the galaxy anyway.

[TMA LIVE]

Any sufficiently advanced technology is indistinguishable from a rigged demo.

"We have tried... a similar solution in the past but it has always failed."

Shepard: Why?

"The organics were not ready. It is not something that can be... forced. You are ready."

"Why am I ready, but they weren't? You thought they were ready, too."

"No data."



@TMA LIVE - The Leviathans did not come up with the Crucible.

Shepard: "Who designed the Crucible?"

Catalyst: "You would not know them, and there isn't time to explain."

Though the catalyst and leviathan don't take credit for being the designer, considering how the choices work with what they both want, and how leviathan pauses when questioning it on the crucible, suggests the likely hood that they had a hand in what the crucible did by "influencing" the designer. As the Catalyst says, it's still following their requests.

[Valmar]

Shepard is special and because of his special-specialness if he jumps into this beam of light he will be turned into energy, have that energy added to the crucible and then have a blast fire off all across the galaxy that makes all organics partially synthetic and all synthetics partly organic.

 

How can this be viewed as anything other than magic? I get the whole "anything advanced can seem like magic" argument, I do. I give Mass Effect a LOT of leeway. This however is beyond a stretch.

 

In Extended Cut, the Catalyst is more specific that on the synthetic side of things, they're just getting a better understanding of organics. My speculation based on Extended Cut is either by the energy reprogramming or upgrading them (more so this, since the Catalyst uses the term DNA when talking about both in general), or the energy allows them to somehow gather data from us, and thus understand us.

 

 

"The chain-reaction will combine all synthetic and organic life into a new framework, a new DNA."

 

The synthesis beam isn't some kind of evolution-beam. It doesn't make us evolve, at least not in an natural sense. It's essentially a beam that causes instant synthetic-organic augmentation down to the molecular level. It also changes all synthetics to somehow now become the same. We are all the same. There is no organic, there is no synthetic. We are all one, right down to the trees. Though, granted, in some ways that is already true, but you know what I mean. This goes beyond the cybernetic augmentation of Dues Ex and beyond the scope of genetic evolution. This is magic. How else do you want to explain it? I'll even grant you that organics reaching the state presented in the synthesis ending is likely possible... but to become that way from a beam of light that sweeps across the galaxy triggered by one guy jumping into a different beam of light? That ALSO changes all synthetics to now be partly organic? This is fairytale fantasy to the highest decree.

 

 

 

As for the difference in genetics with the other species, who's to say they all change the exact same way? We know it's meant to change everyone's DNA (pretty much their inner coding), but it's never stated if it's gonna change everyone the same way. Only that whatever changes those are, it's mostly likely not "bad". That, and that it'll allow us (somehow in a way I'm still pondering) to be fully integrated with technology. Does this happen the second the blast hits? I'm not sure. Maybe it's more of how we might use this energy, which we now all have, with whatever technology we now use and invent, and not how it specifically evolves us. 

 

Whos to say we all change the same way? The catalyst says and EDI says. We all become one. A new framework, a new dna, for all life in the galaxy.

 

Second blast? Were there two blasts?

 

 

There's a lot to speculate. If you wanted to know how the energy doesn't kill asari because green energy doesn't work that way, keep in mind, both Leviathans and the Reapers have been studying every species currently alive for thousands of years, and the ones that came before even longer. Assuming Leviathans were the ones who came up with Synthesis when they assuming came up with the Crusible, I can assume their homework made sure nothing like that could be an outcome. How exactly? Rule of lazy. They just did.

 

I'm 99% certain the Leviathan's had nothing to do with the crucible or, therefore, synthesis. They didn't know anything about it, except that its been constructed before but never succeeded. The catalyst also points out we would not know the creators, while it knows we met the Leviathans.

[Han Shot First]

It dissolves Shepard into particles, and then somehow uses the 'essence' of what was once Shepard to turn every form of life in the galaxy into cyborgs, and for all time. A better question would be, "How is Synthesis not Space Magic?"

[sH0tgUn jUliA]

@Valmar - like I said - Any sufficiently advanced technology is indistinguishable from a rigged demo.

 

What he's seeing as two blasts from the crucible are the "nova" for our local system, then the "beam" that went to the relay. That's the cinematic BS stuff.

 

Thanks for the backup on the Crucible. TMA is speculating.

[ImaginaryMatter]

The problem I have with Synthesis isn't so much that it's space magic, it's that it's unexplained space magic. Even something like the Cypher which involves super plants and mind trading is easy to understand in terms of the plot: it's a cypher that allows us to better understand the Prothean .gif dump. Synthesis has no grounding and the only way to glean meaning from is to try and make sense out of the Catalyst's often frustratingly vague explanations.

[fhs33721]

Almost the entire series consists of "space magic" as in stuff that makes no scientific sense (this relay lets you teleport your mako directly on the citadel presidium; People are being molten into grey goo and then somehow form a new entity in the shape of a Reaper. Braindead Shepard gets revived somehow; Blue space chicks  can somehow have children with every member of other species no matter if male of female; And even in a society that consists of multiple species where multiple ones are way more advanced than humanity humans are still somehow the most awesome because f*ck yeah humans....Äh I mean genetic diversity or some such BS).

But Synthesis is widely hated by the BSN community, thus it gets called out for being space magic more often.

[Vazgen]

The problem with Synthesis is that it's very hard to describe using technology available in the universe (probably even impossible). One can do that for Control and Destroy, but I have no idea how to explain Synthesis. One draft I had was that each mass relay contains caches of inactive self-replicating Reaper nanites and the green wave activates and disperses them. However, this has a bunch of plot holes like Crucible connection, largely unchanged appearance of organics and Shepard's "essence".

[Han Shot First]

Almost the entire series consists of "space magic" as in stuff that makes no scientific sense (this relay lets you teleport your mako directly on the citadel presidium; People are being molten into grey goo and then somehow form a new entity in the shape of a Reaper. Braindead Shepard gets revived somehow; Blue space chicks  can somehow have children with every member of other species no matter if male of female; And even in a society that consists of multiple species where multiple ones are way more advanced than humanity humans are still somehow the most awesome because f*ck yeah humans....Äh I mean genetic diversity or some such BS).

But Synthesis is widely hated by the BSN community, thus it gets called out for being space magic more often.

 

The main difference is that many other elements of the series, while also purely Sci Fi 'space magic,' get an explanation in the lore that allows players to suspend disbelief. We are able to suspend disbelief with FTL travel and biotics for example, because the game universe includes the fictional element zero. Biotics and the mass effect are explained by this fictional element and its properties.

 

Synthesis in contrast strains suspension of disbelief beyond the breaking point for many, not necessarily because it is outlandish, but because it does not make sense even within the lore of the Mass Effect universe. There is no lore-based explanation for how it is possible beyond 'a space wizard did it.'

 

Also some of the things you mentioned in your post did in fact receive a great deal of criticism from fans as well, like the claim that humans are a genetically diverse species, the Lazarus Project, or Reapers being created from an organic slushie.

[Asharad Hett]

Step 1, jump into a beam and fry your body

Step 2, within a few seconds everyone in the galaxy has their organic DNA replaced with synthetic DNA

 

It smells like magic to me.  But control and destroy are just as bad.  Shoot the tube and every synthetic in the galaxy dies.  Electrocute yourself and replace Star Kid.

[Memnon]

I have a few issues with Synthesis - the first one, is why do we have to add Shepard's body to the beam to make Synthesis happen? What is it genetically about him that causes the beam to turn green and fuse synthetics and organics? How does adding the body of a human to the beam communicate to it the knowledge required to alter the DNA of Turians, Salarians, etc. Also, why does it have to be Shepard? I just passed an entire mass grave of bodies on the Citadel, and TIM's body is still fresh a few feet away. 

 

I also disliked the Catalyst's contention that now "we were ready" for Synthesis. Again, why are we special? If the Catalyst can outright admit that, that of all of the cycles that came before us, we were different, then he should be able to consider the fact that we don't need the Reapers to turn us into goo anymore (think a Fallout 1 ending where you talk down The Master). I hated that line, that Synthesis was tried before and failed, but we were ready. Why did it fail? Why were we ready? I want to know what the consequences of that failure were and how the Catalyst was so certain it would work this time.

 

At a space magic level, I don't understand how the beam was able to add organic bits to purely synthetic beings and organic beings had synthetic bits added to them, and how it magically linked everyone to a super hive of utopian happiness. I think I have a pretty high threshold when it comes to suspension of disbelief, and the Synthesis beam kicked down that threshold and dragged the entire ME series into about seven more thresholds past that. 

 

At a moral level, I have a serious problem with one person deciding to rewrite the DNA of every sentient being in the galaxy against their will, denying them free will and independence

[Iakus]

Step 1, jump into a beam and fry your body

Step 2, within a few seconds everyone in the galaxy has their organic DNA replaced with synthetic DNA

 

It smells like magic to me.  But control and destroy are just as bad.  Shoot the tube and every synthetic in the galaxy dies.  Electrocute yourself and replace Star Kid.

Not to mention one of the big differences between organic and synthetic life, we are told, is that synthetic life is created, and thus serves a purpose, while organic life is evolved and must find its own way (nevermind that there are in fact organic "synthetic" life like Miranda and Grunt as well as AI's that spontaneously came into being like EDI.)

 

How adding green bits to DNA somehow bridges that understanding I have no idea.