372 réponses à ce sujet

[TMA LIVE]

I don't know, it might be a good thing they didn't touch on that. Not all of us care about wiping out synthetics. They're just machines, afterall. Machines are what started this mess in the first place.

 

That mindset proves the need for synthesis, but its still valid to say not everyone cares. I certainly never got the impression anyone other than paragon Shepard really gave any care about the machines. Even before the ending that wiped them out. Sure, some quarians hundreds of years ago were sweet on them (so that we can view the geth as the victims for siding with the reapers in the war) but overall I never got the impression the galaxy generally cared.

 

If Hackett or someone, anyone, came on the news after the war and asked for a moment of quiet for the loss of the geth... I think their might be a bit of an uproar, honestly.

 

I'd at least would've been happy with an alternate shot of the Normandy crash land scene, where Joker comes out with dead Edi in his arms, looking heart broken, as he lays her to the ground. The entire game can be building her romance with him. If Synthesis shows them getting closer, Destroy should show the end of that love story is a very sad way. And if you didn't bring them together, then Joker comes out just like in the current version, not concerned or anything.

 

And the same way you see the horrible future of the Krogan if you did things wrong, I'd want a slide showing the dead geth on the ground. I don't need Hackett commenting on it. Just the shot to appear, so for those who kept the Geth alive, there's no mistaking that you ended up taking them out in the end.

[Valmar]

I'd at least would've been happy with an alternate shot of the Normandy crash land scene, where Joker comes out with dead Edi in his arms, looking heart broken, as he lays her to the ground. The entire game can be building her romance with him. If Synthesis shows them getting closer, Destroy should show the end of that love story is a very sad way. And if you didn't bring them together, then Joker comes out just like in the current version, not concerned or anything.

 

And the same way you see the horrible future of the Krogan if you did things wrong, I'd want a slide showing the dead geth on the ground. I don't need Hackett commenting on it. Just the shot to appear, so for those who kept the Geth alive, there's no mistaking that you ended up taking them out in the end.

 

Actually having it be Joker as the one mourning for her sounds great regardless of their relationship status. Though I don't think Joker will be carrying anyone anytime soon. Still, a slide of him standing over her body in the AI core would had been a nice touch. Perhaps he took his hat off too and placed on his chest. Symbolic stuff or whatever.

 

A glimpse of the dead geth platforms would had been pretty nice aswell. The real kicker is that all these things... none of them are unreasonable to ask for. Its just a still image. They didn't have to make a long fancy cutscene. They could've at least tossed in a still image. How difficult could they be?

[elrofrost]

It's magic because it's impossible. I mean, changing ALL life in the galaxy? That would include bacteria, virus, fish, water itself, trees, dogs, - everything. Even the microbes in the soil. And do it all at once.

 

Changing the fundamental laws of the universe - I don't care how advance you are - it would not be possible.

 

Not to mention, why would Shepard trust anything the Star Child says? Considering it's been killing every living thing for 50 million years. It's lied, corrupted (think: Protheans in ME2), and killed - so no. I wouldn't believe a word he said, 

Destroy them or control them. If my Shepard is a saint, I pick control.. He he's a ruthless bastard I choose destroy.

[sH0tgUn jUliA]

Hey, I agree synthesis wasn't setup right at all. Same with Control. Not arguing there.

 

So you're saying you didn't kill the Reapers in the Destroy ending right? Because if you do, then yes, you did kill Edi and the Geth too if you kept them alive before shooting the tube. And that's genocide.

 

And no, I don't consider waking up, and pretending the Geth and Edi didn't die because of me a happy ending.

 

I said the Geth were killed by the Quarians - and now because I know how this works, I never let the Geth live. How that frees up the ending. I killed the reapers because it was them or us. It was survival. In the case of the reapers genocide was justified. EDI died just like any other team member who might have died along the way.

 

I never called it a happy ending. You're putting words in my fingers, and deflecting the entire discussion.

 

See without the Geth present, you're left with a single teammate in balance with the fate of the entire galaxy. The needs of the many outweighs the needs of the one. Do you want to control the reapers? Is that better for the many? OR Do you want to complete your mission and destroy the reapers? Is that better for the many?

 

But you still don't get it. I don't dislike synthetics. I dislike the way this story turns in the last 5 minutes. You've played 119 hrs 55 minutes of one story, and now you have just found out all that you learned during that was wrong and that this last 5 minutes is all that matters, now make your decision: do you like blue, green, or red?

[78stonewobble]

And what exactly are your trying to argue with this? Eventually the universe will collapse and end all life permanently anyways. Death is the ultimate fate of all living things. That doesn't mean that it should not be avoided as long as possible.

Just because  one day other Synthetics from different galaxies might decide to kill everything in the ME galaxy doesn't mean we should just say "F*ck it. Let's just let the synthetics in this galaxy kill all the organics right away becaue billions of years in the future it might potentially happen anyways."

 

I'm saying, that it might not be a solution to the problem and might actually prevent a real solution to the problem. Also there might not even be a problem to begin with or it might not be as bad as people, reapers and catalysts think it is. 

 

The milky way seems teeming with life, which seems incongruent with an AI ever having wiped all organic life out. Life can be traced to around 3.7 billion years back on earth. So if AI wiping out all organic life has ever happened in the milkyway or the entire universe, the AI disappeared to allow room for organic life again. Doesn't seem so bad...

 

In any case the possibility of an AI capable of wiping out all organic life (implies the universe) would be far more powerfull than a limited amount of reapers and organics working together in 1 galaxy. 

 

The only real solution or guarantee of preventing that, that I can see, is to create an AI equally powerfull, that is friendly. That can both eliminate the need for any AI development by organics in the universe and absolutely squash a developing malevolent AI. 

[TMA LIVE]

I said the Geth were killed by the Quarians - and now because I know how this works, I never let the Geth live. How that frees up the ending. I killed the reapers because it was them or us. It was survival. In the case of the reapers genocide was justified. EDI died just like any other team member who might have died along the way.

 

I never called it a happy ending. You're putting words in my fingers, and deflecting the entire discussion.

 

See without the Geth present, you're left with a single teammate in balance with the fate of the entire galaxy. The needs of the many outweighs the needs of the one. Do you want to control the reapers? Is that better for the many? OR Do you want to complete your mission and destroy the reapers? Is that better for the many?

 

But you still don't get it. I don't dislike synthetics. I dislike the way this story turns in the last 5 minutes. You've played 119 hrs 55 minutes of one story, and now you have just found out all that you learned during that was wrong and that this last 5 minutes is all that matters, now make your decision: do you like blue, green, or red?

 

I got what you meant. Which is why I said it's genocide to the Geth if you kept them alive till that point. Though it's still genocide to any AI or VI or synthetic the beam targets similar to EDI and the Geth. You can argue if the end justifies the means, or if the other options are better. It's up to the player.

 

And yeah, I get that the last 5 minutes of choices weren't setup right at all. Not arguing with that.

[Iakus]

Catalyst thinks so, so yeah, judging by the synthesis ending. Fact of life really. I can't un-see the Synthesis Extended Cut ending.

The sad thing is, neither can I.

 

And because I cannot believe that every single organic and synthetic life form in the entire galaxy is "ready" for Synthesis, that gives the Synthesis ending a much darker, more unpleasant connotation.

[Iakus]

I'd at least would've been happy with an alternate shot of the Normandy crash land scene, where Joker comes out with dead Edi in his arms, looking heart broken, as he lays her to the ground. The entire game can be building her romance with him. If Synthesis shows them getting closer, Destroy should show the end of that love story is a very sad way. And if you didn't bring them together, then Joker comes out just like in the current version, not concerned or anything.

 

And the same way you see the horrible future of the Krogan if you did things wrong, I'd want a slide showing the dead geth on the ground. I don't need Hackett commenting on it. Just the shot to appear, so for those who kept the Geth alive, there's no mistaking that you ended up taking them out in the end.

I'd want Destroy to have two versions.  One final choice for Shepard if he/she decides to shoot the tube: 

 

1) Focused blast.  Destroys all synthetic life, but tech like the relays is okay.

2) Dispersed blast.  Destroys Reapers, other synthetic life survives.  But much of the technology galactic civilization depends on is damaged.  The "galactic dark age" that was mentioned way back when.

[dorktainian]

why does anyone trust anything starjar says though?

[TMA LIVE]

The sad thing is, neither can I.

 

And because I cannot believe that every single organic and synthetic life form in the entire galaxy is "ready" for Synthesis, that gives the Synthesis ending a much darker, more unpleasant connotation.

 

I only think the Catalyst thinks we're ready is because we're accepting communication and synthetics way more then other cycles, and already making them apart of our lives with Omni tools, Biotic implants, Gene Therapy, Extra Net, etc. And unlike other cycles, where they didn't work together and put differences aside, this cycle, assuming you got everyone to work together to make the synthesis option an option, it means we're more willing and accepting for whatever changes happen ahead. As for the non-space flight creatures, they might not be ready, but they'll either have the support of their bigger brothers (current cycle), or just get used to it as they continue to evolve. Where as in a different cycle where everyone was less accepting, less peaceful, and used less synthetics on themselves, they might just go crazy from the sudden change, and not be able to help the lesser races get used to the process. Instead, it might make them go crazy too. But this is assuming we're all connected into some kind of hive mind network.

[angol fear]

It's magic because it's impossible. I mean, changing ALL life in the galaxy? That would include bacteria, virus, fish, water itself, trees, dogs, - everything. Even the microbes in the soil. And do it all at once.

 

Changing the fundamental laws of the universe - I don't care how advance you are - it would not be possible.

 

Are you sure that we don't already have something that change life (bacteria, virus etc...)? It's just a matter of scale...

[fhs33721]

why does anyone trust anything starjar says though?

It honestly doesn't matter. Trust it and do one of the things it suggests and it might trick you and kill everyone anyways or do nothing and let it kill everyone for certain. At this point in the story it is irrelevant if you trust it or not, since your combined fleets are pretty much getting shredded, your ground forces are wiped out and Shepard has literally no cance of escape to rebuild the resistance (which would only prove to be futile once again anyways). You either do something the starchild suggests or you don't. But since there won't be a second chance (for your cycle )to end the harvest ever again not doing anything is stupid.

[TMA LIVE]

It honestly doesn't matter. Trust it and do one of the things it suggests and it might trick you and kill everyone anyways or do nothing and let it kill everyone for certain. At this point in the story it is irrelevant if you trust it or not, since your combined fleets are pretty much getting shredded, your ground forces are wiped out and Shepard has literally no cance of escape to rebuild the resistance (which would only prove to be futile once again anyways). You either do something the starchild suggests or you don't. But since there won't be a second chance (for your cycle )to end the harvest ever again not doing anything is stupid.

 

Yeah, it's all about taking what you got, and making a choice.

[Pasquale1234]

Coincidentally look at the Alliance as an example of people coming together for peace. Today we have a lot of hate. Hate based off of color, nationality, sexual preference, so on and so forth. In Mass Effect, what brought humanity together? The discovery of aliens. Suddenly that focus was shifted away from each other and placed on aliens. It was us vs them. People finally viewed each other as what we are: human. No more petty complaints over skin color or what part of the world you hail from. Now it was humanity vs aliens.
 
Synthesis is like that on steroids.

This is actually one of my biggest problems with it - the idea that the supposed apex of evolution / civilization still has the us vs them thing going on, which sets up conflict as inevitable. Instead of evolving to a point where we overcome our differences, we eliminate them via synthesis.

[Valmar]

why does anyone trust anything starjar says though?

 

So what, do you only select the Refuse option?

 

There is a bit of a catch 22 here. Or a paradox. Whichever lingo fits.

 

Dont trust synthesis because the catalyst cannot be trusted. Yet you'll go with destroy which has you breaking some tube that very well could had been a crucial part of the citadel-crucible connection all based on the suggestion of the catalyst. How does sabotaging a part of the citadel that connects to the crucible activate the crucible? You'd think that would actually be a bad thing. Don't break the weapon you're trying to use.

 

If you don't trust the catalyst the only ending you can pick is refuse.

 

 

This is actually one of my biggest problems with it - the idea that the supposed apex of evolution / civilization still has the us vs them thing going on, which sets up conflict as inevitable. Instead of evolving to a point where we overcome our differences, we eliminate them via synthesis.

 

Supposedly we never get to evolve to that point naturally because we always create synthetics that kill us before that happens. The pattern of conflict has been going on for over a billion years. Observed by the Leviathans and the Catalyst.  We can evolve past it, I imagine, if we're allowed to evolve long enough. The conflict with synthetics always prevented us from reaching that point.

[Pasquale1234]

Supposedly we never get to evolve to that point naturally because we always create synthetics that kill us before that happens. The pattern of conflict has been going on for over a billion years. Observed by the Leviathans and the Catalyst.  We can evolve past it, I imagine, if we're allowed to evolve long enough. The conflict with synthetics always prevented us from reaching that point.

Does that not also infer that the Leviathans were a few degrees short of the apex?

[Iakus]

I only think the Catalyst thinks we're ready is because we're accepting communication and synthetics way more then other cycles, and already making them apart of our lives with Omni tools, Biotic implants, Gene Therapy, Extra Net, etc. And unlike other cycles, where they didn't work together and put differences aside, this cycle, assuming you got everyone to work together to make the synthesis option an option, it means we're more willing and accepting for whatever changes happen ahead. As for the non-space flight creatures, they might not be ready, but they'll either have the support of their bigger brothers (current cycle), or just get used to it as they continue to evolve. Where as in a different cycle where everyone was less accepting, less peaceful, and used less synthetics on themselves, they might just go crazy from the sudden change, and not be able to help the lesser races get used to the process. Instead, it might make them go crazy too. But this is assuming we're all connected into some kind of hive mind network.

Except this acceptance is very limited.  

 

Genetic Engineering:

In the 22nd century, manipulation of the human genome became commonplace. Techniques for genetic engineering advanced to the point where the rich could custom-build fetuses that grew into stronger, smarter, and more attractive adults. In more permissive regions, custom-designed life forms and "uplifted" animals occupied an ill-defined niche between "property" and "sapient being".

Travel to planets with unique forms of life brought an awareness that Earth's biodiversity could be lost if it spliced and hybridized to gain useful alien qualities. The Sudham-Wolcott Genetic Heritage Act was passed by the Systems Alliance Parliament in 2161. It imposed sharp restrictions on controversial uses of genetic engineering, but provided government subsidies for beneficial applications.

SCREENING AND THERAPY: Most governments provide free assessments and corrective therapy for genetic diseases in prospective parents. This has nearly eliminated everything from cystic fibrosis to nearsightedness. The earlier screening and therapy is performed, the more comprehensive the results. Though ideally performed on artificially fertilized zygotes in a lab, procedures are available for embryos in the womb and newborns, out of respect for personal beliefs.

ENHANCEMENT: Improvements of natural human abilities is legal, but adding new abilities is not. Treatments to improve strength, reflexes, mental ability, or appearance are permitted; adding a tail or the ability to digest cellulose is not. Some genetic enhancement is provided for free to Alliance military recruits, but the average citizen must pay for the privilege. The process can take years to reach fruition in an adult.

ENGINEERING: Artificial hybridization of genes from compatible non-human species with human genetic code is illegal. Creation of designed life is broadly legal (and mainly used for terraforming and medical applications), but sentient creatures are heavily regulated, and creation of sapient life is outlawed by both the Systems Alliance and the Citadel Council.

 

Not to mention you can attack Earth with just humans, turians, and a really high EMS score after blowing up the geth, so yeah, not much cooperation or diversity is needed there.

 

RE: non spaceflight races.  SO why don't the Reapers triger Synthesis after a harvest, when everyone left is pre-spaceflight?

[Valmar]

Does that not also infer that the Leviathans were a few degrees short of the apex?

 

If you believe accepting synthetics is the final step in evolution, yeah, looks that way.

 

Though in all 'fairness' to the Leviathans.... they viewed everything as a tool beneath them. They didn't discriminate. Lol.

[SwobyJ]

If you don't trust the Catalyst at all, like 0% trust, then you can't trust what it even says about Destroy. You only have, to this point, the implication that the Crucible sends out a lot of energy somehow, in some form, and then a bunch of hints about it mapping out mass relays etc etc. That doesn't really make the ending scene with the Catalyst legit though. Even IT has to believe that Destroy 'represents' the destruction of the Reapers and therefore a part of Shepard's mind that resists the Reapers, but then again, why trust it even means or represents what the Catalyst says about it?  That it even means destroying Reapers? Even the most ardent Destroyer trusts the Catalyst to at least the 1% required to take the action to shoot the tube to destroy Reapers.

 

And its that super minimal level of trust that may be all that's needed. To do whatever. To shoot the Crucible. Or Ascend. Or Wake Up. Or whatever the eff is happening.

 

Choose Refuse to reject that entirely I guess. I often consider it a fail condition though, just in a much less failure tone than ME2's 'Shep Died' ending.

 

 

Shepard concedes to the Reapers in even the most basic ways, a little more each game. ME1 he can reject them entirely. ME2 he concedes that the Reapers are coming, and the facts of their Reaping process. ME3 he concedes the usage of Reaper tech and code (even if reverse engineered) for useful ends, and the words of the Reapers of why they're doing what they're doing (even if the player may not). This, again even to the most basic and violent ways, is the necessary process in order to counter the Reapers and be of the state to fight them.

 

In ME3, you gotta trust that shooting the tube that the Catalyst tells you destroys Reapers, will at least represent the destruction of Reapers, and therefore the waking up of an illusion and ending up destroying Reapers. Even if you don't trust 99% of what the Catalyst says, you gotta believe that 1%.

 

Its just Synthesis more believes the Catalyst to 99%, so to speak.

[Reorte]

If you don't trust the catalyst the only ending you can pick is refuse.

Why? Refuse isn't going to achieve anything other than getting everyone mulched, and Shepard knows that. Without any additional information the only thing you can do is assume that the choices act as claimed and go with that. If the Catalyst was lying then you've not made anything worse, since it can't get worse than Refuse.

[SwobyJ]

Why? Refuse isn't going to achieve anything other than getting everyone mulched, and Shepard knows that. Without any additional information the only thing you can do is assume that the choices act as claimed and go with that. If the Catalyst was lying then you've not made anything worse, since it can't get worse than Refuse.

 

The refuse state as we've been shown, sure.

 

But Shepard in that moment doesn't absolutely KNOW that everyone will die. He can act in denial of that, and hold onto the even slim chance of victory through not using the Crucible.

 

If we take what we've been shown in EC though, he is wrong. So in that sense, he fails, just as he can fail in the Suicide Mission by not understanding that he's gotta form some kinds of Loyalty (through Charm or Intimidation, whatever) with allies to survive. The Crucible is the big test of ME3, whether players like it or not, and to reject it means death, and at least to some significant degree, failure.

[CosmicGnosis]

I used to think that Synthesis strained credibility to the breaking point... until I thought about the power of the mass relay network. Arrival reveals that each mass relay contains energy equivalent to a supernova explosion. These explosions are some of the most awesome, in the literal sense of the word, phenomena in nature. The explosions are so mighty that they form the heaviest natural elements in the universe.

 

So an unfocused release of the energy contained within a mass relay can annihilate an entire solar system. What happens if you detonate the entire mass relay network at the same time. The implications are staggering. You could very well turn the entire galaxy into a black hole. I kind of wish that there was such an ending; if the Crucible is both poorly constructed and badly damaged, then it literally blows up the galaxy. However, the controlled detonation of the network, combined with the "magic" that dark-energy-based mass effect technology already allows, could actually leave the writers a lot of room for anything they want to happen. So it's very possible that releasing all the energy of the entire network in a single explosion could warp reality in profound ways, or at the very least allow phenomena that seem extremely improbable to become reality. Suddenly, the release of innumerable Synthesis-creating nanomachines, based on the husk-creating nanomachines that all Reapers have, across 100,000 light-years of mass-free space in an explosion that is practically the size of a galaxy, doesn't seem all that ridiculous.

[sH0tgUn jUliA]

Does that not also infer that the Leviathans were a few degrees short of the apex?

 

Humans were special.

 

@CosmicGnosis - destroying a mass relay releases energy equivalent of a supernova. It is not the same as a supernova. Essentially everything gets a gamma radiation bath. There's not enough mass in a mass relay to create a black hole.

[Pasquale1234]

The refuse state as we've been shown, sure.
 
But Shepard in that moment doesn't absolutely KNOW that everyone will die. He can act in denial of that, and hold onto the even slim chance of victory through not using the Crucible.
 
If we take what we've been shown in EC though, he is wrong. So in that sense, he fails, just as he can fail in the Suicide Mission by not understanding that he's gotta form some kinds of Loyalty (through Charm or Intimidation, whatever) with allies to survive. The Crucible is the big test of ME3, whether players like it or not, and to reject it means death, and at least to some significant degree, failure.

The lines Shepard delivers notwithstanding, the refuse ending could also signal Shepard agreeing that the current solution is the best choice.

[teh DRUMPf!!]

 *edit* oops, double post! *edit*