372 réponses à ce sujet

[teh DRUMPf!!]

 I find the whole issue of "trust" to be silly. It's just a whole lot of nothing, IMO.
 
Do I trust the Catalyst? No. It has its own wants and needs that are separate from my own. I would not have it make this decision for me (if that were an option) nor would I want to rely on it for anything. However, I do believe that what it is telling me is true -- to the best of its knowledge (not necessarily true/correct, but what it believes to be true/correct).
 
I am not surprised that its grasp of ethics is -- in our POV -- dubious. It is an AI; it has a different perspective. However, I do not need an ethical take on the Crucible. I just need to know how it works, and AI are pretty adept and figuring out machinery. That's part of the reason I am fairly comfortable making a decision in the 'chamber -- any decision!

[SwobyJ]

The lines Shepard delivers notwithstanding, the refuse ending could also signal Shepard agreeing that the current solution is the best choice.

 

Well, at least for this Cycle.

 

With his lines, he's seemingly speaking on behalf of all organics+allies. Like Javik brings up - this is for all existence in the Milky Way, not just past and present, but also future.

 

'WE will stop you' meaning even those yet to be born.

 

So Shepard concedes the Harvest right now, but does so with the hope (even if the least hope of maybe any ending) that things are set up to defeat the Reapers anyway. Implicitly sacrificing the whole cycle, in order to have a next cycle that may be much more successful against the Reapers.

 

ME6 DLC: From Ashes 2 - where the Klaxblorg species wakes up Shepard from rubble on Earth Colony. LOL.

[Valmar]

@CosmicGnosis - destroying a mass relay releases energy equivalent of a supernova. It is not the same as a supernova. Essentially everything gets a gamma radiation bath. There's not enough mass in a mass relay to create a black hole.

 

I don't know, it might be feasible. The mass relays are capable of increasing or decreasing the mass of an objective. It might be possible to create enough mass to form a blackhole. 

[Reorte]

I used to think that Synthesis strained credibility to the breaking point... until I thought about the power of the mass relay network. Arrival reveals that each mass relay contains energy equivalent to a supernova explosion. These explosions are some of the most awesome, in the literal sense of the word, phenomena in nature. The explosions are so mighty that they form the heaviest natural elements in the universe.

Raw power is one thing, using it to do something that far beyond credibility is something else. Power does not imply sophistication. And anyone with the technological ability to do Synthesis would have the ability to do well, just about anything. If it comes from the Reapers they wouldn't have needed to do the harvest, if it came from someone else they'd have had the ability to curbstomp the Reapers.

[SwobyJ]

Raw power is one thing, using it to do something that far beyond credibility is something else. Power does not imply sophistication. And anyone with the technological ability to do Synthesis would have the ability to do well, just about anything. If it comes from the Reapers they wouldn't have needed to do the harvest, if it came from someone else they'd have had the ability to curbstomp the Reapers.

 

I think the idea is that the Crucible, at that point, made by such a successful Council cycle that surpasses even any of the earlier Crucible plans (*insert help by so many various experts and useful species like Geth*), really can do anything.

 

However, in the specific moment of meeting the Catalyst that facilitates the expression of energy from the Crucible, the use of the Crucible is more limited. (*insert data from various Crucible related War Asset texts*). The technology level of the Max Crucible can, sure, do anything to the Milky Way - but the utilization of it still has to do with the Reapers and organics etc etc blah blah.

 

We can imagine a post Synthesis, likely post Control, and maybe post Destroy galaxy to use the breakthroughs from building the Crucible in order to, in fact, reach a whole other level of existence and technology that may in the short to long term result in surpassing the Reapers. Slower for the Destroy galaxy, faster for the Synthesis galaxy.

 

To be clear - the development of Synthesis is not from the Crucible plans. The Catalyst knew of the Crucible plans' existence. This is a new thing. They've tried similar solutions to Synthesis, but not actually Synthesis. Synthesis is at least suggested to be the result of a VERY VERY successful work on the Crucible, with many additions to the plans by our own Cycle to make it more successful than it would ever be thought to be.

 

Control instead is more on-level with Reaper tech (I don't think it does a LOT more than what the Citadel itself apparently can do; just with some elaborations and fast acting), and Destroy is more likely at least slightly lower than Reaper tech. EDIT: What I mean by Reaper Tech is that it is something I can imagine that the Reapers could achieve if they wanted to and tried. I don't think they could achieve what Synthesis does, but sure, they could probably hack their own stuff to make a control or destroy signal if they wanted.

[CosmicGnosis]

Raw power is one thing, using it to do something that far beyond credibility is something else. Power does not imply sophistication. And anyone with the technological ability to do Synthesis would have the ability to do well, just about anything. If it comes from the Reapers they wouldn't have needed to do the harvest, if it came from someone else they'd have had the ability to curbstomp the Reapers.

Mass effect technology is based on a very "magical" version of dark energy. The opening paragraph of ME1 describes the mass effect as "a force that controlled the very fabric of space and time". We also know that every relay contains the energy of a supernova. The straightforward destruction of one creates a solar-system-destroying explosion. But the Crucible, in conjunction with the network's hub, the Citadel, can actually focus and use the energy. For a brief moment, the entire galaxy is enveloped in a dark energy explosion. A lot of weird things can happen. This is why I can accept Synthesis. I do wish, though, that the game had better prepared us for its introduction.

 

So why didn't the Reapers do it themselves? I don't know. Perhaps the Crucible harnesses dark energy in a way that the relays don't? We must not forget that the Crucible is useless without the relays; it depends on the Reapers' greatest technological achievement. I'm not sure if the Crucible could contain some kind of unique understanding of dark energy that the Reapers lack. I'm more inclined to assume that the Catalyst wanted organics to do it themselves, otherwise they might reject the benefits of Synthesis, and then nothing is solved. That's what it means with its "cannot be forced" line. Yeah, it could force Synthesis upon the galaxy, but if organics don't embrace it, then it's meaningless. Organics have to accept the benefits of Synthesis for it to be a genuine solution. If they don't, then synthetics can't interact with them on a deeper level, which will hinder their understanding of organics, and the organic-synthetic divide will continue. And because synthetics are better-equipped to survive in the universe, they will inevitably outlive organics, and some may push organics to the sidelines of the galactic stage, dooming them to everlasting obscurity.

[Reorte]

That's like saying you can focus the energy from a nuclear bomb to create a flower. Even in a wishy-washy light science fiction series that's space magic too far. To do something that complicated someone has to design something specifically to do that, and has to have full and complete mastery of what they're doing (if you even accept it's remotely possible). There is no way I can buy that, that it could somehow become possible pretty much by accident. There's only so far I can go with willing suspension of disbelief. When it's so clearly a case of "whatever we want to happen will happen, screw credibility" it's destroyed for me; you can get away with a degree of that in the setup of a universe, but not when it comes to key events.

As much as I dislike Synthesis for all sorts of reasons it's a pity it was handled in such an atrocious manner since the concept is definitely interesting enough to explore.

[sH0tgUn jUliA]

See the decision to keep the conversation high level as to what the endings are was for the simple reason that they really couldn't figure out a decent way of explaining them. They pulled the ending out of their asses, and we're still trying to figure out what it all meant. The Extended Cut was even high level enough so as not to really explain anything. It just gave us the opportunity to challenge the Catalyst. The ending doesn't belong with the story. It's tacked on. It's a totally different story than the one in which we were engaged.

 

Synthesis itself, had there been more done with it in ME2 and ME3 proper would have had merit. Still the way it was handled, with a green beam that changed every living creature in the galaxy and added circuit boards to plants and even Joker's hat was ridiculous. It really feels tacked on as a way for people who didn't want to control the reapers, but who saved the geth and didn't want to destroy them, too.

[Valmar]

Synthesis itself, had there been more done with it in ME2 and ME3 proper would have had merit. Still the way it was handled, with a green beam that changed every living creature in the galaxy and added circuit boards to plants and even Joker's hat was ridiculous. It really feels tacked on as a way for people who didn't want to control the reapers, but who saved the geth and didn't want to destroy them, too.

 

Oh my goodness I never noticed that before. That's wonderful. For all that I hate on synthesis I have to imagine that was just a graphical error. We don't see any of their clothes glowing do we?

[TMA LIVE]

Oh my goodness I never noticed that before. That's wonderful. For all that I hate on synthesis I have to imagine that was just a graphical error. We don't see any of their clothes glowing do we?

 

Yeah, clothing glows too. That's why I don't consider synthesis adding tech parts inside us (that will come later as we advance), but instead just attaching energy around us Biotic Energy style, that slowly changes us, or changes us instantly enough that we can interact with technology, synthetics, and each other in an entirely new way. And that way is the energy being used as a network; A way of linking us together.

[sjsharp2011]

A higher EMS represents broad-based support from a lot of different individuals, groups, and species throughout the galaxy, demonstrating their willingness to work together for mutual benefit. Maybe the Catalyst sees that co-operation as an indication that they are now ready.

That's as good an explanation as any I think.

[TMA LIVE]

RE: non spaceflight races.  SO why don't the Reapers triger Synthesis after a harvest, when everyone left is pre-spaceflight?

 

Oh that's easy. The Catalyst explains they only knew synthesis was truly possible once Shepard got the crucible to the Citadel. Before then, they had something similar that they tried, but it didn't work. We weren't ready (for whatever the reason), and you can't force progress if we're not ready (I hope that's the intent of that line, because Synthesis is still forcing it on everyone).

 

 

Not to mention you can attack Earth with just humans, turians, and a really high EMS score after blowing up the geth, so yeah, not much cooperation or diversity is needed there.

 

Though yeah, because of Extended Cut, Multiplayer, and side missions, Renegade players can get Synthesis, it still represents getting a high amount of EMS through everyone working together (like in Multiplayer) to make it happen.

 

The only other thing I can think of is genetics when it comes to not being ready, but you can't apply that to the galaxy. So I'm gonna have to go with cooperation.

[themikefest]

A player can do the worst playthrough and still get the synthesis and breath scene endings

 

When the catalyst says you're ready to Shepard, it might mean that Shepard is able to choose synthesis without the Catalyst having to force it. The responsibility is passed onto Shepard whether or not he/she wants to pick synthesis

[Valmar]

Yeah, clothing glows too. That's why I don't consider synthesis adding tech parts inside us (that will come later as we advance), but instead just attaching energy around us Biotic Energy style, that slowly changes us, or changes us instantly enough that we can interact with technology, synthetics, and each other in an entirely new way. And that way is the energy being used as a network; A way of linking us together.

 

We specifically see the green glowly stuff stuff being merged into our DNA helix, though. That seems like a deeper change than just getting an overlay.

[TMA LIVE]

We specifically see the green glowly stuff stuff being merged into our DNA helix, though. That seems like a deeper change than just getting an overlay.

 

Well, yeah. That too. Like the Catalyst says, our DNA will be changed. I think that change is to allow the energy to work with us, and be apart of us, instead of burning us and all other life forms into a crisp (like what happened with Shepard when he jumped in).

[sH0tgUn jUliA]

Yeah, clothing glows too. That's why I don't consider synthesis adding tech parts inside us (that will come later as we advance), but instead just attaching energy around us Biotic Energy style, that slowly changes us, or changes us instantly enough that we can interact with technology, synthetics, and each other in an entirely new way. And that way is the energy being used as a network; A way of linking us together.

 

Now here's an interesting thought. Speaking of thoughts.... Does this mean people's minds become linked? Does this mean that if you did screwed over someone and didn't tell them that they now know about it? Or even did worse to them. Everything was going along fine, and now they know about it? What about companies that made deals with other companies, and now the other company having its people linked knows about the screw over. Ah, the dark side of synthesis.

 

Perhaps Control would have been a wiser choice.

[TMA LIVE]

Now here's an interesting thought. Speaking of thoughts.... Does this mean people's minds become linked? Does this mean that if you did screwed over someone and didn't tell them that they now know about it? Or even did worse to them. Everything was going along fine, and now they know about it? What about companies that made deals with other companies, and now the other company having its people linked knows about the screw over. Ah, the dark side of synthesis.

 

Perhaps Control would have been a wiser choice.

 

It's possible. Maybe we can still keep secrets. Maybe you only know what I allow you to know, similar to how Asari enter minds. So who knows.

[CosmicGnosis]

That's like saying you can focus the energy from a nuclear bomb to create a flower.

No, because nuclear bombs don't warp the very fabric of space and time. Mass effect technology does. And a galaxy-sized mass effect field could unleash countless nanomachines upon all the matter contained within the Milky Way. 

 

Check out this thread for reference:

 

http://forum.bioware...ce-magic-i-say/

[78stonewobble]

I don't see the mass relay system blowing up turning the galaxy into a blackhole, but if I remember correctly there are examples of starburst galaxies having so many supernovas, that the supernovas eject much of the gas needed for forming new stars. Essentially rendering the galaxy "sterile", from the point of stellar formation.

[Reedirector]

One of the key differences between Magic and Science/Technology as I see it is that science must obey fundamental laws of nature, energy cannot be destroyed, the universe tends to entropy, etc, while magic is not restricted in such a way.

 

For instance, if all the DNA of all organic life is altered, the precision required to do that for all organic life would be almost impossible. Does it just rearrange DNA? If not, where does the matter necessary to add base sequences to the DNA come from? How would the Crucible/Catalyst distinguish between life, if it recognises synthetic and organic life? What would the consequences be if all life was fundamentally changed in one instant? If all the cells in your body had their genetic information changed, it's possible that you would just die. The new DNA would have to be "backwards compatible" with the biochemistry of your cells that express that genetic information. 

 

If the concept had been better explained, perhaps there would be no need to call it magic. As it is, there are so many holes in the theory it just doesn't stand consistent with the ME Universe.

 

Great discussion though! 

[Reedirector]

It's also particularly glaring that a device that is capable of something as nuanced as altering the molecular makeup of all organic and synthetic life in the galaxy cannot discriminate between Reapers and other synthetic life (such as the Geth) in the destroy ending.

 

Wow, I never thought of it like that, but yeah. That makes less sense than before, and before it made no sense. Bioware have deleted understanding from my brain that I previously had.

[SwobyJ]

I think Bioware is okay with calling it space magic though. That it is supposed to be both beyond us, and the writers' ability to completely explain, in detail. In this way, it isn't an outright superior choice to make compared to Control and Destroy, even as it supposedly shows a better performing galaxy. We don't know the details, we don't know the clearer dangers and potential bad outcomes, so we can see the utopian dream while wondering just how did it happen, should it have happened, and will it all go wrong?

 

I will also note that Genophage Cure and Rannoch Peace have a similar quality, along with some stories like Thane's seeming spiritual insistence of the world beyond (so everything will be okay, across the sea). We see greatly positive situations and assertions from characters, but through it all, we just have to have enough personal hope that this all makes sense (the Genophage Cure and Legion Dissemination are both very advanced processes that we players barely understand, and often argue about - especially the latter), all worked out okay or great, and will not go wrong in the future. Destroy-toned things appear as more of a surety, and Control-toned things appear as more of a theory (possibilities based on what we know and may learn, not on what we sorta think and hope).

 

I don't really mind any of this, but I can sympathize with especially long-term players of the franchise (those starting at ME1, maybe ME2) who assumed that Mass Effect would stay in either science that we can pretty easily understand as real (except for a few 'tweaks' that make the MEU different from us, like eezo), or at least science that we can imagine as real (through theory and more logical connections; like how the Geth were presented in ME2). Bioware seemed to start getting into more than that in ME2 with the Suicide Mission or earlier (oh, the complaints about how the Reapers work!), or even ME1 with Sovereign's words that there's a realm of existence so far beyond our own that we cannot even imagine it, but ME3 turns up this quality significantly, forces us to confront us and its barely logical possibilities, and whether we want to leap for it without understanding it. Or trust certain 'experts' (Paddok/Mordin, Legion, Catalyst) that it'll work and end up okay.

 

In itself, I can just go "Okay, you want that sort of thing? Go for it. Don't want it? Other options exist." But I also understand and sympathize with those who wished the option and story tone wasn't even in the game, and wanted something more grounded in science that we currently understand or more confidently theorize, instead of just wonder about as futurist hypotheticals - like much of ME2 and most of ME1. 'Space Magic' being presented to clearly to us is an insult to many fans, even while being just fine with many others (there's plenty of players cool with Synthesis being so vague about things, and choose it knowing that).

 

~~~

 

Crucible involves Reaper Code. Destroy targets Reaper Code (which here, all synthetics have, and the Crucible just gets to pinpoint it onto it better and better). Crucible is an 'explosion' of energy, so even as a Control or Synthesis signal, it by default does not discriminate (thus Destroy still hitting organics, but being better and better designed to not harm them). Synthesis hits everyone, as the Crucible can be allowed to do.

 

Now why ONLY the options of Synthesis and Destroy (and Control) exist? There's several ways you could look at that. One is a more literal view, that this cycle's makers of the Crucible added the function when given the time and resources and will (especially true if you had Geth or Rannoch Peace going on) to pursue any 'extra' capabilities of the Crucible's tech. Another that I like to hold (as an ITer at heart, aww), is that at least the meeting with the Catalyst is an illusion, so the paths in front of us, while facilitated by a legit AI, and while being actual actions Shepard can take, still involve the perceptions of Shepard and how his mind works. So to Shepard, things are rather strictly coded for the main endeavor of Destroy, the possibility of Control, and ultimately, the greatest hope of saving and helping everyone, Synthesis. The Catalyst facilitates this process and sends your choice to the Crucible to shoot it based on your decision.

 

That's just a couple views to wonder about, though.

[Valmar]

I don't see the mass relay system blowing up turning the galaxy into a blackhole

 

Well think of this. The Mass Relays can increase or decrease the mass of any object. To what limit we don't know but they were able to teleport massive armadas and the Citadel so it must be considerably high if it does indeed have a limit.

 

If all the relays all at once were to increase the mass of EVERYTHING in their system to astronomical levels (pun) is it really unheard of that it might turn the galaxy into  a series of blackholes? A stretch perhaps but I wouldn't rule it out just yet.

[Reorte]

No, because nuclear bombs don't warp the very fabric of space and time. Mass effect technology does. And a galaxy-sized mass effect field could unleash countless nanomachines upon all the matter contained within the Milky Way.

That's over-comparing the analogy (since just power was mentioned). Any mass warps the fabric of space and time.

What reason is there to think that a galaxy-sized mass effect field can be generated? If it can how can it do it without screwing everything else up? If it can do that where have all the nanomachines come from? If you've got them how are they able to minutely analyse every completely different form of life and change it without killing it? Resorting to "it's big and powerful and beyond us so we'll make it do whatever we feel like" is a huge cop-out and atrocious writing.

[SwobyJ]

That's over-comparing the analogy (since just power was mentioned). Any mass warps the fabric of space and time.

What reason is there to think that a galaxy-sized mass effect field can be generated? If it can how can it do it without screwing everything else up? If it can do that where have all the nanomachines come from? If you've got them how are they able to minutely analyse every completely different form of life and change it without killing it? Resorting to "it's big and powerful and beyond us so we'll make it do whatever we feel like" is a huge cop-out and atrocious writing.

 

What if the plan is to make us understand how it works in the next game?

 

Like how we understand how Sovereign's guns are so goddamn powerful in ME1, in ME2.