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Synthesis and Space Magic


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#326
TMA LIVE

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I do consider Synthesis being the Clarke's Third Law. It's something so beyond what we currently understand, that we consider/mistake it for magic, when in fact it's science with secrets and mystery. However, it's setup is still not done correctly. There's no setup for how the Catalyst came to the conclusive that it's even possible. I mean, how did it figure out that, "Oh, if Shepard jumps into this beam, and I expose this energy on organics, they'll be this and that". There's little to no setup of energy being used this way on organics till the end. And even if the answer is "I figured it out using my eons worth of knowledge. You'd never understand. It's beyond you.", Shepard never even asks how the energy does what it does.

 

Anyhoo. Here's something I never considered. We always assumed the Crucible was meant to destroy the Reapers from the get go, but what if it's original purpose was Synthesis?


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#327
God

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The concept itself isn't all that hard to understand. 

 

It's a tech singularity.


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#328
CosmicGnosis

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Okay, I think everyone should look at this thread. Seriously. It really helped me to accept the Crucible's capabilities, especially Synthesis.

 

http://forum.bioware...ce-magic-i-say/



#329
SwobyJ

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I do consider Synthesis being the Clarke's Third Law. It's something so beyond what we currently understand, that we consider/mistake it for magic, when in fact it's science with secrets and mystery. However, it's setup is still not done correctly. There's no setup for how the Catalyst came to the conclusive that it's even possible. I mean, how did it figure out that, "Oh, if Shepard jumps into this beam, and I expose this energy on organics, they'll be this and that". There's little to no setup of energy being used this way on organics till the end. And even if the answer is "I figured it out using my eons worth of knowledge. You'd never understand. It's beyond you.", Shepard never even asks how the energy does what it does.

 

Anyhoo. Here's something I never considered. We always assumed the Crucible was meant to destroy the Reapers from the get go, but what if it's original purpose was Synthesis?

 

That's part of why I think its all a Matrix illusion. lol. (not just talking IT here)

 

Maybe I'm trying to make sense of nonsense. Oh well!



#330
sH0tgUn jUliA

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Okay, I think everyone should look at this thread. Seriously. It really helped me to accept the Crucible's capabilities, especially Synthesis.

 

http://forum.bioware...ce-magic-i-say/

 

I think manufacturing nanites smaller than atomic nuclei is preposterous let alone programming them to perform a task. What are they making them out of? It's magic. Literally. Magic. This is where Mass Effect meets Dragon Age. I have a difficult enough time buying the reapers.


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#331
78stonewobble

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Well think of this. The Mass Relays can increase or decrease the mass of any object. To what limit we don't know but they were able to teleport massive armadas and the Citadel so it must be considerably high if it does indeed have a limit.

 

If all the relays all at once were to increase the mass of EVERYTHING in their system to astronomical levels (pun) is it really unheard of that it might turn the galaxy into  a series of blackholes? A stretch perhaps but I wouldn't rule it out just yet.

 

All I'm saying is that, when you dial the energy requirements, expenditures and precision up of your fictional device or superhero... It's starts to become incredible and then unbelievable. 

 

This is a device, that by energy release and controlled self demolition, blows up stuff all over the galaxy, not just to send a signal like "go away" in control, to the reapers, or a self destruct in destroy (which for completely arbitrary reasons isn't limited to reapers), but to change every single lifeform fundamentally on every planet, moon, asteroid, comet and flake of spacedust within reach of a mass relay. 

 

What? The famed technological singularity could only do it, in one galaxy at a time? It couldn't change the physical laws of universe to disallow ai to begin with? Change us all so we could all run a 100 meter dash in record time, while being hung like horses? 

 

It's arbitrarily limited, while at the same time expending orders of magnitude more energy, than anything shown before in the game. 


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#332
Valmar

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All I'm saying is that, when you dial the energy requirements, expenditures and precision up of your fictional device or superhero... It's starts to become incredible and then unbelievable. 

 

This is a device, that by energy release and controlled self demolition, blows up stuff all over the galaxy, not just to send a signal like "go away" in control, to the reapers, or a self destruct in destroy (which for completely arbitrary reasons isn't limited to reapers), but to change every single lifeform fundamentally on every planet, moon, asteroid, comet and flake of spacedust within reach of a mass relay. 

 

What? The famed technological singularity could only do it, in one galaxy at a time? It couldn't change the physical laws of universe to disallow ai to begin with? Change us all so we could all run a 100 meter dash in record time, while being hung like horses? 

 

It's arbitrarily limited, while at the same time expending orders of magnitude more energy, than anything shown before in the game. 

 

I don't disagree. I'm just saying the notion of the relays being used to turn the galaxy into a giant blackhole isn't completely unfounded. In fact it actually has more lore support than what they're used for in the ending right now. We've established since the first game that the relays can alter the mass of objectives. It isn't a huge stretch from there to also say they can form blackholes by increasing the mass of everything around them to significant levels. Its far fetched, sure, but it does have some bases and ties into what we already know about the relays. Unlike synthesis using them to give everything in the galaxy a new DNA.



#333
Daemul

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I'm interested in finding out why people consider synthesis as space magic. Mainly because I don't. Can I get some of the basics, so I can discuss if that's really space magic, or more of confusion and misinterpretation?


The entire trilogy is full of space magic, some of the sutff that goes on is ridiculous. Synthesis didn't bother me because I had long accepted this aspect of the series.
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#334
dorktainian

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Consider the three endings as taking place in an alternate reality.  One off which Sovereign spoke of.

 

Then consider Shepard waking up.

 

What does this mean?

 

Destroy can work in the alternate reality.

Control can work in the alternate reality.

Synthesis can work in the alternate reality.

 

All three endings are legit - if looked at as happening in an alternate reality.

 

But shepard only wakes up in the destroy ending - in this reality.

 

Speculations everywhere.


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#335
Reorte

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What if the plan is to make us understand how it works in the next game?
 
Like how we understand how Sovereign's guns are so goddamn powerful in ME1, in ME2.

ME1 and ME2 were part of the same story, the next game is almost certainly going to be a new story set in the same universe. And the idea of very powerful guns was many orders of magnitude less daft.

If there is an explanation which doesn't make me facepalm I'll be amazed.

Moving on, dragging up the "looks like magic because it's so beyond us" argument makes for bad fiction. There's a degree of nonsense necessary to set up a setting that I can swallow (and it's usually got some handwavy, iffy explanation - if you had a good explanation for FTL you'd have invented FTL travel after all, which would be rather more significant than inventing a story), but it only goes so far. When it descends into "beyond us" it almost inevitably looks like the author wants something to exist, can't even think of some suitable handwavy technobabble, but shoves it in the story anyway. It's accepting that there are no limits.

In a similar (but at least possible) vein it's like having characters progress through very unlikely luck. Even though (unlike Synthesis) really unlikely events do happen from time to time they make stories look very unconvincing. Sometimes fiction has a tougher job than reality.

#336
sH0tgUn jUliA

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What we have to remember about the Crucible and about the ending is this simple fact: the original ending was a slash and burn ending. "Releasing the energy of the Crucible will destroy the mass relays."

 

"Will there be any post game DLC?"

 

Walters: "It's a wasteland. What's the point?"

 

The relays originally were destroyed by crucible. It was the end of not only Shepard's journey, but the end of Mass Effect going forward. When they said "but not the end of Mass Effect," they meant that the DLC would be pre-ending. Then, when there was such an outcry about the ending and how people wanted more Mass Effect, they backed off. The mass relays only were "damaged" not destroyed, but the didn't back off totally because that would have meant rewriting the ending totally, something they wouldn't do with the Extended Cut. Thus we have the mess we have today: Speculations from everyone.

 

Are you speculating?

 

So with a massive dose of the element handwavium, synthesis got these tiny subatomic sized nanites that were programmed to attach to the nuclei of DNA molecules and make them partly synthetic. While I am not opposed to the idea of synthesis itself, the way this was presented exceeded the bounds of suspension of disbelief. This was stupid. Just because you can do this with animation doesn't mean it is possible. Any sufficiently advanced technology is indistinguishable from a rigged demo.



#337
Arcian

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Some fans call it space magic. I like to think of it as some form of advanced controlled energy that alters genetics.


There is no such thing as "advanced energy" that can be controlled to alter genetics. If you want to change genes without having to wait to death for evolution to do its thing, you need to use retroviruses. A f***ing sh!tton of them, in fact.
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#338
Kirard

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The concept itself isn't all that hard to understand. 

 

It's a tech singularity.



#339
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I'd want Destroy to have two versions.  One final choice for Shepard if he/she decides to shoot the tube: 

 

1) Focused blast.  Destroys all synthetic life, but tech like the relays is okay.

2) Dispersed blast.  Destroys Reapers, other synthetic life survives.  But much of the technology galactic civilization depends on is damaged.  The "galactic dark age" that was mentioned way back when.

 

 

Well, Destroy doing what it does in the current endings I don't mind, since it's apart of the theme they're trying to tell at the end of the game. However, I'd want a 4th crucible option, which we never got. If you read my feedback DLC idea here, you'd know I'd want some mission before the end of the game, that would focused on Harb, and obtaining some kind of new data. And somehow this data would create a 4th crucible option that allowed you to defeat the Reapers without picking the other 3 options.

 

Well, I gave it some more thought. From a game design perspective, if you're keeping the current endings, but adding a new one, you need to add balance so there's no specific good ending still. And the best way to do that is to allow Shepard to defeat the Reapers, but at a new price.

 

So my new idea would be to have a story that explores someone studying the energy in the crucible. They discover how the energy could be used to destroy, control, or create synthesis, and give us a proper setup for it. However, the problem is, you need the mother of huge computers in order to tell the energy to do specific things (AKA the Catalyst), a way of firing it, and possibly mixing some elements to create the needed blast (like with Synthesis). But assuming all options can't be used, and the Catalyst is never found, the scientist creates a 4th solution where the energy is used as an EMP instead if Shepard throws a certain device inside the beam. The EMP would affect only Reaper tech, and briefly disable them for a few minutes, allowing the fleets to take a few out; enough to even the numbers before the Reapers came back online. Once they're back, if you have enough assets, it's clear the fleets can defeat the Reapers, even if doing so would deplete the fleets to 10% by the time every Reaper is killed. Shepard then gives the Catalyst three choices: Die, Surrender, or Retreat. Because if it doesn't back down, there will be no Reapers left to complete it's purpose, even if a lot of people will die in the process.

 

The Catatyst, pissed off, decides to go all out, and attack every leader as a last ditch effort. Wrex is killed. The Turian Primarch is killed. Hackett is killed. The Quarian leaders are killed. The Geth take heavy losses trying to save the remaining Quarian fleets. While this is happening, the Catalyst is trying to killed Shepard, and Shepard tries to get away. Even fights indoctrination. You then play your ME1 and ME2 squadmates as they land on the Citadel, and fight their way to Shepard. They then find out where the Catalyst is on the Citadel, and kill it. And mission to get to it, similar to the Suicide Mission, would get squadmates killed. You'd then destroy the Catalyst's Blue Box, but before it dies, it tells the Reapers to retreat back to Dark Space.

 

So the game would end with Shepard officially alive, but with a lot more squadmates dead, and a lot of things unresolved and undone. Instead of destroying the Reapers, they're still a threat that one day might come back. Instead of solving the Krogan problem peacefully with Wrex, the Krogan are now leaderless, the survivors are still violent, and with less numbers if you didn't cure them. The surviving Quarians, now leaderless, still mistrust the geth, and refuse to share the same planet with them, possibly causing another war. And if you did believe in the Catalyst's issue, that problem remains unsolved without a solution. So pretty much you undid what Paragon Shepard spent 3 games trying to achieve (Make peace. Bright futures for everyone. Reapers dead. And everyone alive). And the only way to get everyone alive and get the brightest future for everyone is to pick the 3 original endings. That would create the balance, where there is no "best" ending for everyone. It comes down to what's best for you.

 

But even though things are bleak, there's still hope. That the new problems of today might be solved later. And it's now up to the galaxy to try again, and decide for itself on what happens next, instead of being run by the will of one AI, or the choice of one man.



#340
nos_astra

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Did I just read that the Crucible enabled Synthesis ... a technological singularity ... by accident?

Because it certainly didn't come from the Reapers who thought the CYCLE was a smart idea. Because somehow the continued existence of basic organic life in one galaxy was so super important that killing advanced organic life in the most gruesome ways imaginable by feeble organic minds was the way to go. Technological singularity.

And the guys who designed the Crucible? The pockets of isolated leftovers of previous civilizations in mortal fear with extremely limited resources of all kinds somehow accidentally designed a thing that connected with another thing that they knew very little about and boom ... a technological singularity happened.

But no, not these brave people were deemed worthy of the application of the green beam of superadvanced stuff that's going to make everything alright. No, it was the cycle of morons that despite having been warned scrambled to do anything, like preparing or uniting, only at the eleventh hour, lead by the king of dumbasses himself, the man without a plan, Commander Shepard.

*facepalm*
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#341
Valmar

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Because somehow the continued existence of basic organic life in one galaxy was so super important that killing advanced organic life in the most gruesome ways imaginable by feeble organic minds was the way to go.
 

 

Just wanted to point out that the reapers don't kill advanced organic life. They harvest and preserve them in reaper form. Each reaper is a billion organic minds linked together. Other than that, I agree the sentiment of the post.



#342
SwobyJ

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Harvest IS death. It is the scythe that cuts us in half and gathers what's there to put in jars/tubes forever.

 

Reapers ascended their non-individual existence beyond death.  But the death still happened. They just see what they did as something more than only killing.

 

'Reapers'. Still bad guys. Though we can understand why they've done what they've done, and even come to the point of understanding and maybe even sympathizing with their goal (right at the very end), though never coming to agreement (Shepard never concedes that the Cycle was good or right or helpful, only that its a thing and now he can do another thing).



#343
Arcian

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The concept itself isn't all that hard to understand.

It's a tech singularity.

It's you from a machine.

#344
Valmar

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Shepard is an idiot, though. Shepard can go nearly the entire game thinking the reapers are just machines, despite having EDI clearly correcting us on this assertion in ME2. The fact that Shepard doesn't come the conclusion that the cycle was good, right or helpful doesn't really mean much to me. This is also the guy who can refuse blowing up the collector base because he won't let fear compromise who he is. Or thought Ann was really under water with Leviathan. Or that Asari need other races to breed.

 

I don't view the harvest as death. Infact I view destroying the reapers as one of the largest cases of mass genocide ever conceived as each reaper represents a civilization of a billion organic minds, ranging back for over a billion years worth of life. Yet I do it anyway because screw those guys my Shepard is a soldier and not here for philosophical debate.  :lol:

 

"And who will you listen to Shepard? An old soldier stuck in his ways? Only able to see the world down the barrel of a gun?"  - Yep! Simpler, easier.



#345
Reorte

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I don't view the harvest as death. Infact I view destroying the reapers as one of the largest cases of mass genocide ever conceived as each reaper represents a civilization of a billion organic minds

Blowing up a Reaper means blowing up a library containing the records of a billion organic minds and a large DNA collection.
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#346
Valmar

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Billion organic minds all conjoined together to form one identity. It didn't say "knowledge archives" it specifically says organic minds. Not the same as blowing up a library.



#347
themikefest

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Fortunately my femshep doesn't give a crap. She always picks destroy



#348
sH0tgUn jUliA

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Billion organic minds all conjoined together to form one identity....

 

That's trying to kill your ass....

 

It dies.



#349
SwobyJ

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Billion organic minds all conjoined together to form one identity. It didn't say "knowledge archives" it specifically says organic minds. Not the same as blowing up a library.

 

Organic minds mulched up and mixed into tubes.

 

They dead.


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#350
Iakus

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Organic minds mulched up and mixed into tubes.

 

They dead.

"You, whatever species you came from, before the Reapers decided to 'preserve' them?  They're dead.  They died thousands of years ago...and now they can rest in peace"  


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