372 réponses à ce sujet

[Iakus]

In Extended Cut, the Catalyst is more specific that on the synthetic side of things, they're just getting a better understanding of organics. My speculation based on Extended Cut is either by the energy reprogramming or upgrading them (more so this, since the Catalyst uses the term DNA when talking about both in general), or the energy allows them to somehow gather data from us, and thus understand us.

 

As for the difference in genetics with the other species, who's to say they all change the exact same way? We know it's meant to change everyone's DNA (pretty much their inner coding), but it's never stated if it's gonna change everyone the same way. Only that whatever changes those are, it's mostly likely not "bad". That, and that it'll allow us (somehow in a way I'm still pondering) to be fully integrated with technology. Does this happen the second the blast hits? I'm not sure. Maybe it's more of how we might use this energy, which we now all have, with whatever technology we now use and invent, and not how it specifically evolves us.

 

There's a possibility that the energy evolves Quarians to be outside their suits without years adapting based on the slide we see. But there's also the possibility that through using the knowledge of the Reapers, and the Geth working with the Quarians peacefully, and how this energy works with our bodies, that they simply invented technology that allowed them to adapt right away.

 

There's the possibility the Krogan became smarter and less violent because of Synthesis, and more craftsmen like. Or/And because of Reapers knowledge and advancement in technology, their world could simply be rebuild faster with Wrex and Eve being more dedicated to it, and using the energy in our bodies, be able to adapt to technology in ways we never could imagine. Synthesis does have this advantage, because we know in the control ending, despite Guardian Shepard having control over the Reapers, he didn't pass on any knowledge to the Krogans that allowed them to build as cool as synthesis.

 

There's a lot to speculate. If you wanted to know how the energy doesn't kill asari because green energy doesn't work that way, keep in mind, both Leviathans and the Reapers have been studying every species currently alive for thousands of years, and the ones that came before even longer. Assuming Leviathans were the ones who came up with Synthesis when they assuming came up with the Crusible, I can assume their homework made sure nothing like that could be an outcome. How exactly? Rule of lazy. They just did.

The Extended Cut showed green bits stuck onto the end of a DNA strand.  I don't even know what that is supposed to do, though I'm pretty sure DNA doesn't work that way.

 

And how would the energy wave know how to reaarange all species' genetic code?  For that matter, what "special sauce" does Shepard have that makes such a thing possible for a wave of energy to do that to begin with?  

 

Not to mention the possibility of altering the minds of a species, even for seemingly benign purposes, has some pretty unpleasant implications.

[TMA LIVE]

Step 1, jump into a beam and fry your body

Step 2, within a few seconds everyone in the galaxy has their organic DNA replaced with synthetic DNA

 

It smells like magic to me.  But control and destroy are just as bad.  Shoot the tube and every synthetic in the galaxy dies.  Electrocute yourself and replace Star Kid.

 Where does it say you're replaced with "synthetic" DNA? Only says our DNA will be changed.

[TMA LIVE]

The Extended Cut showed green bits stuck onto the end of a DNA strand.  I don't even know what that is supposed to do, though I'm pretty sure DNA doesn't work that way.

 

And how would the energy wave know how to reaarange all species' genetic code?  For that matter, what "special sauce" does Shepard have that makes such a thing possible for a wave of energy to do that to begin with?  

 

Not to mention the possibility of altering the minds of a species, even for seemingly benign purposes, has some pretty unpleasant implications.

 

Like I said, rule of cool. It just does.

 

We don't know if it's rearranging per species to be all the same, or if just changing everyone's in general. We just know it's changing everyone's DNA. How specifically is just speculation.

 

Altering a persons mind? Only suggested on the Geth and Edi side of things though.

[fhs33721]

For that matter, what "special sauce" does Shepard have that makes such a thing possible for a wave of energy to do that to begin with?  

Video game Protagonist super plot power? Proably the green beam just consumes Shepards plot armor as fuel and as a byproduct Shepard desintegrates because all that kept her/his molecules together after being hit by Harbingers laser was said plot armor.

[Memnon]

Like I said, rule of cool. It just does. We don't know if it's rearranging per species, or if it's making use all have the same DNA. That's speculation. Altering a persons mind? Only suggested on the Geth and Edi side of things though.

 

You are really answering your own question here - when you say "rule of cool" and imply that speculation is needed to fill in the blanks, that is pointing out the failure of the writing, in my opinion. There are times in which storytellers rely on their audience using their imagination to fill in the blanks, and in fact that is exactly what many of us were doing following the conversations with Sovereign and Vigil. There is a difference, however, between that technique and making something so entirely absurd that half of the audience stares in stunned disbelief. Some people certainly thought the endings followed the "Rule of Cool," many others felt they followed ... a completely different rule.

[TMA LIVE]

Shepard is special and because of his special-specialness if he jumps into this beam of light he will be turned into energy, have that energy added to the crucible and then have a blast fire off all across the galaxy that makes all organics partially synthetic and all synthetics partly organic.

 

That's speculation that I believe a lot of people got wrong. When it comes to what the Catalyst says, he only mentions the beam changing our framework into a new DNA, and how we'll be better integrated with technology. He never says I'll magically have robot parts put into everyone, and Extended Cut slides kind of prove that didn't happen.

 

"The chain-reaction will combine all synthetic and organic lift into a new framework, a new DNA."

 

The synthesis beam isn't some kind of evolution-beam. It doesn't make us evolve, at least not in an natural sense. It's essentially a beam that causes instant synthetic-organic augmentation down to the molecular level. It also changes all synthetics to somehow now become the same. We are all the same. There is no organic, there is no synthetic. We are all one, right down to the trees. Though, granted, in some ways that is already true, but you know what I mean. This goes beyond the cybernetic augmentation of Dues Ex and beyond the scope of genetic evolution. This is magic. How else do you want to explain it? I'll even grant you that organics reaching the state presented in the synthesis ending is likely possible... but to become that way from a beam of light that sweeps across the galaxy triggered by one guy jumping into a different beam of light? That ALSO changes all synthetics to now be partly organic? This is fairytale fantasy to the highest decree.

 

Like I said, the only time the Catalyst talks about how it'll effect both in general, it mentions a new DNA. It never says we'll get augmented by beam, but will be integrated with technology, which can mean anything really. I can be integrated better with my phone by just attaching it into my watch.

 

Catalyst and Edi says we all changed. Never did they say we all changed the same way, or in what way beyond "DNA", and somehow this allows us to be better integrated with Technology. Does that mean my DNA is the same as an Asari now? No. That's speculation. Saying we did change the same way or changed in different ways is unknown. We only know, based on what EDI says, is that we're been "changed". Changed into what exactly? Never explained beyond DNA.

 

Keep in mind also that in Extended Cut, even after learning who the Leviathans are, you can ask who made the Catatyst, and it will dodge the question. It'll only mention Leviathans if you bring them up specifically. Leviathan's know nothing about about the Crucible is your speculation. Leviathans themselves say, after looking down and thinking of what to say: "We've watched its construction before. It has never been completed. Those who have tried still fell victim to the harvest. Its outcome is unknown." So yes, they do know about it. And if they had, it's possible they might've messed with the designers of it. The designers being someone "We don't know them, and there's not enough time to explain". My speculation.

[TMA LIVE]

You are really answering your own question here - when you say "rule of cool" and imply that speculation is needed to fill in the blanks, that is pointing out the failure of the writing, in my opinion. There are times in which storytellers rely on their audience using their imagination to fill in the blanks, and in fact that is exactly what many of us were doing following the conversations with Sovereign and Vigil. There is a difference, however, between that technique and making something so entirely absurd that half of the audience stares in stunned disbelief. Some people certainly thought the endings followed the "Rule of Cool," many others felt they followed ... a completely different rule.

 Hey, I never said no bad writing was involved. More of, there's nothing magical about it. At least, I don't think so.

[Iakus]

Like I said, rule of cool. It just does.

 

We don't know if it's rearranging per species to be all the same, or if just changing everyone's in general. We just know it's changing everyone's DNA. How specifically is just speculation.

 

Altering a persons mind? Only suggested on the Geth and Edi side of things though.

Isn't "rule of cool" a more general term for "space magic" though?

 

And given everyone is getting hit by the same green wave, and exhibiting the same glowing green eyes and circuitry pattern on their skin, it stands to reason that they were changed in similar ways.  Similarly, teh geth and EDI (and I think the Reapers, but don't recall exactly) have similar markings, suggesting something much like that happened to them as well.

 

Altering minds is also suggested if Wreav is in icharge of teh krogans, they do not go to war.  Like I said, it may seem benign, but there's some ugly implications about that.

[themikefest]

If Shepard was able to use Anderson's body in the beam instead of her's, would the result still be the same?

[Iakus]

That's speculation that I believe a lot of people got wrong. When it comes to what the Catalyst says, he only mentions the beam changing our framework into a new DNA, and how we'll be better integrated with technology. He never says I'll magically have robot parts put into everyone, and Extended Cut slides kind of prove that didn't happen.

 

 

Like I said, the only time the Catalyst talks about how it'll effect both in general, it mentions a new DNA. It never says we'll get augmented by beam, but will be integrated with technology, which can mean anything really. I can be integrated better with my phone by just attaching it into my watch.

 

Catalyst and Edi says we all changed. Never did they say we all changed the same way, or in what way beyond "DNA", and somehow this allows us to be better integrated with Technology. Does that mean my DNA is the same as an Asari now? No. That's speculation. Saying we did change the same way or changed in different ways is unknown.

 

Keep in mind also that in Extended Cut, even after learning who the Leviathans are, you can ask who made the Catatyst, and it will dodge the question. It'll only mention Leviathans if you bring them up specifically. Leviathan's know nothing about about the Crucible is your speculation. Leviathans themselves say, after looking down and thinking of what to say: "We've watched its construction before. It has never been completed. Those who have tried still fell victim to the harvest. Its outcome is unknown." So yes, they do know about it. And if they had, it's possible they might've messed with the designers of it. The designers being someone "We don't know them, and there's not enough time to explain". My speculation.

There's also the ending notes:

 

[biod_end002_600epilogue_loc_int.end004_finale_v_d.end004_finale_v_dlg]
  1: We see a child, maybe they look a little bit asari, a little bit human. They are looking at the stars on a planet some 10,000 years after the events of the game.
  2: There is an older male here as well, the child looks to the "grandfather" and asks...

[TMA LIVE]

Isn't "rule of cool" a more general term for "space magic" though?

 

And given everyone is getting hit by the same green wave, and exhibiting the same glowing green eyes and circuitry pattern on their skin, it stands to reason that they were changed in similar ways.  Similarly, teh geth and EDI (and I think the Reapers, but don't recall exactly) have similar markings, suggesting something much like that happened to them as well.

 

Altering minds is also suggested if Wreav is in icharge of teh krogans, they do not go to war.  Like I said, it may seem benign, but there's some ugly implications about that.

 Not really, Rule of cool could be I jump 10 feet for a certain scene, but only just 4 feet in general. It's more of style over substance. Not magic.

 

The only similarity we know of is that we're all glowing green. So yes, that's the only similar change we know.

 

And if I remember correctly, Wreav still goes to war Synthesis wise. I'll have to do a double check on that one.

[TMA LIVE]

If Shepard was able to use Anderson's body in the beam instead of her's, would the result still be the same?

 Depends if Shepard being more synthetic with all the Cerberus cybernetics really matters. Or if being alive matters. Or if non reaper tech matters. I mean, you could say the same about Tim's dead body.

 

That would be so awesome throwing TIM's dead body into the beam, and seeing what happens to everyone.

[von uber]

More to the point, why are the three options there anyway? The catalyst doesn't know much about the crucible, so why are these choices there? Who built them?
The whole thing is bunkum.

[Iakus]

 

That would be so awesome throwing TIM's dead body into the beam, and seeing what happens to everyone.

Everyone in the galaxy would develop an insatiable thirst for bourbon...

[themikefest]

More to the point, why are the three options there anyway? The catalyst doesn't know much about the crucible, so why are these choices there? Who built them?
The whole thing is bunkum.

You do not know them and there's not enough time to explain it.

[ImaginaryMatter]

More to the point, why are the three options there anyway? The catalyst doesn't know much about the crucible, so why are these choices there? Who built them?
The whole thing is bunkum.

 

That's certainly another big question. Why does the Crucible have to be used at all? If just docking the Crucible is some contrived sign that the organic/synthetic paradigm has changed and Shepard is allowed to make a decision, then why does that decision have to be confined to the Crucible's arbitrary functions (even if those functions are explicitly non-solutions -- I agree though, what was the logic in building this thing?). For example, why can't the Reapers just leave? It's similar to Destroy in that the Reapers are gone and chaos will come back, only it's better for both parties. The Catalyst isn't destroyed and can observe the galaxy from afar or have the time to come up with a new, better solution; and the current cycle doesn't have things they like blow up.

 

 Depends if Shepard being more synthetic with all the Cerberus cybernetics really matters. Or if being alive matters. Or if non reaper tech matters. I mean, you could say the same about Tim's dead body.

 

That would be so awesome throwing TIM's dead body into the beam, and seeing what happens to everyone.

 

It does work off 'organic energy' which doesn't seem to be something unique to Shepard. In fact it seems like gasoline would count too since that also has organic energy.

[themikefest]

Everyone in the galaxy would develop an insatiable thirst for bourbon...

Or start smoking

[Valmar]

Almost the entire series consists of "space magic" as in stuff that makes no scientific sense (this relay lets you teleport your mako directly on the citadel presidium; People are being molten into grey goo and then somehow form a new entity in the shape of a Reaper. Braindead Shepard gets revived somehow; Blue space chicks  can somehow have children with every member of other species no matter if male of female; And even in a society that consists of multiple species where multiple ones are way more advanced than humanity humans are still somehow the most awesome because f*ck yeah humans....Äh I mean genetic diversity or some such BS).

But Synthesis is widely hated by the BSN community, thus it gets called out for being space magic more often.

 

The difference is that everything you mentioned was given some explanation in the lore that fit.

 

The relays use element zero. The prothean's making a precise relay isn't improbable because ME2 shows us that you CAN refine the transit to be more precise without crazy drift.

 

There is all kinds of lore supporting the goo being possible in the ME universe.

 

Asari are explained in the codex and in the dialogue with Liara. It isn't as nonsensical as you make it out to be. Also, technically, they don't have children with others. They use their own DNA, none of the fathers genes are actually used. The mother is always the sole parent of the child. Hence why its possible in the first place. It isn't like their womb just accepts all types of seed for some reason or another. They don't produce the same way we do, they're alien.

 

Reviving Shepard wasn't perfect but at least it does have some bases in the lore.

 

A species being advanced technologically has little bases on their genetic diversity.

 

I just can't see it as fair to compare the space magic of synthesis with anything else presented in the lore. It's leagues above all the rest in terms of stretching belief.

 

 

 Where does it say you're replaced with "synthetic" DNA? Only says our DNA will be changed.

 

Not necessarily replaced but rather merged. All life becomes one, synthetic and organic. We all have the same techo-dabbed DNA. Which technically would make everyone and everything, even plants, synthetic.

 

 

That's speculation that I believe a lot of people got wrong. When it comes to what the Catalyst says, he only mentions the beam changing our framework into a new DNA, and how we'll be better integrated with technology. He never says I'll magically have robot parts put into everyone, and Extended Cut slides kind of prove that didn't happen.

 

Did we watch the same ending? It's on youtube, you know. It isn't speculation. I'm not assuming thats what happens. I'm just parroting what was told to us by the catalyst and EDI. As for for not magically having robot parts put into everyone... again, did we watch the same ending? We totally see that. Everyone has green circuit lights all over their skin, even the leafs on trees. The DNA strands even have techno magic junk merged around them. This isn't speculation, its synthesis as it stands. If it was just speculation it wouldn't be such a problem in the first place. You can ignore speculation - you cannot ignore whats real.

 

We're all one, synthetic and organic, merged together. There are no more borders between us. No more fighting or violence. Its a complete utopia where everyone is one. This isn't my my speculation, its what EDI tells us. It is lore.

 

 

 

Like I said, the only time the Catalyst talks about how it'll effect both in general, it mentions a new DNA. It never says we'll get augmented by beam, but will be integrated with technology, which can mean anything really. I can be integrated better with my phone by just attaching it into my watch.

 

Catalyst and Edi says we all changed. Never did they say we all changed the same way, or in what way beyond "DNA", and somehow this allows us to be better integrated with Technology. Does that mean my DNA is the same as an Asari now? No. That's speculation. Saying we did change the same way or changed in different ways is unknown. We only know, based on what EDI says, is that we're been "changed". Changed into what exactly? Never explained beyond DNA.

 

It says we'd all have a new framework and dna. Synthetic and organic life will be combined. Anyone who watched the ending should know this is lightyears away from being like attaching a phone to a watch. If it was that simple I doubt you would have as many people, even Shepard, arguing against it on a moral standpoint.

 

It does say we changed the same. We all have a new framework built upon the merger of synthetic and organic dna. It is the final evolution of life. There are no more lines. No more divisions. We are all one. Thanks to Organic-Synthetic Shepard jumping into a beam of light that triggered a chain-reaction that causes all life in the galaxy, organic and synthetic, to all become one new framework, a new form of life. There are no longer synthetics and organics. The line disappeared. We are all one now.

 

 

 

Keep in mind also that in Extended Cut, even after learning who the Leviathans are, you can ask who made the Catatyst, and it will dodge the question. It'll only mention Leviathans if you bring them up specifically. Leviathan's know nothing about about the Crucible is your speculation. Leviathans themselves say, after looking down and thinking of what to say: "We've watched its construction before. It has never been completed. Those who have tried still fell victim to the harvest. Its outcome is unknown." So yes, they do know about it. And if they had, it's possible they might've messed with the designers of it. The designers being someone "We don't know them, and there's not enough time to explain". My speculation.

 

You're taking me out of context. I explicitly said that they knew of its construction. When I said they don't know about it I meant they don't know its function or design. They know OF it but thats it. In the same sense Javik 'knew' of the crucible. You're pointing out a piece of the lore that I myself already recited to you, as if I don't already know that. 

 

"They didn't know anything about it, except that its been constructed before but never succeeded. The catalyst also points out we would not know the creators, while it knows we met the Leviathans."

 

You also bring up the catalyst dodging the question even if you know who the Leviathans are. I know that, I'm just surprise you think it actually favors your speculation. Imo, the fact that the catalyst says you don't know them even though it knows you know Leviathan should prove that Leviathan didn't create the crucible. My view is based on lore, what is told to us. Yours is speculation. Which is fine, just don't accuse me of being the one making up speculation when everything I mention is in the lore.

 

 

Altering minds is also suggested if Wreav is in icharge of teh krogans, they do not go to war.  Like I said, it may seem benign, but there's some ugly implications about that.

 

Personally, and here comes my speculation, it isn't so much that their minds are altered but rather they're suddenly given metric tons of knowledge. It's like a caveman getting a ton of knowledge suddenly beamed into his head.

 

 

 Depends if Shepard being more synthetic with all the Cerberus cybernetics really matters. Or if being alive matters. Or if non reaper tech matters. I mean, you could say the same about Tim's dead body.

 

I agree with that.

 

Something to consider about TIM. With TIM, it wasn't really synthesis. Just as it wasn't with Saren. They did not work together as one, he was just a tool, a puppet to the tech. There was a power struggle between what the organic wanted and what the tech commanded. Shepard is different. Shepard /is/ synthesis. His body is like 30% synthetic but yet he's embraced it and the organic and synthetic bits all work flawless together. There is no struggle for control, its just a part of him. He is Adam Jensen.

 

[Iakus]

 

Personally, and here comes my speculation, it isn't so much that their minds are altered but rather they're suddenly given metric tons of knowledge. It's like a caveman getting a ton of knowledge suddenly beamed into his head.

 

 What knowledge?  Where is this knowledge coming from? How is he getting it?  How can a wave of energy do this?  And why is Shepard a vital component? 

[themikefest]

Would a blood sample be enough to activate the beam? Would Shepard just spitting into the beam be enough? 

[Valmar]

 What knowledge?  Where is this knowledge coming from? How is he getting it?  How can a wave of energy do this?  And why is Shepard a vital component? 

 

According to EDI it comes from the reapers and it's the collective knowledge of all the civilizations before them. How can it do this? How the hell am I supposed to know? Probably the same way the cypher works, same way the prothean memory/information/experience storage devices work that beam stuff directly into your brain. This would hardly be the first or only example in MEUniverse where knowledge is implanted in someones minds instantaneously. Javik learned our language just from a touch.

 

We're talking about Synthesis here. It isn't like anything about it really makes sense in the first place.

[Linkenski]

I'm interested in finding out why people consider synthesis as space magic. Mainly because I don't. Can I get some of the basics, so I can discuss if that's really space magic, or more of confusion and misinterpretation?

The reason for how it works is extremely vague and the means to achieve it is highly questionable. Throw Shepard into a ray of light that connects the crucible (a "power source") to the Citadel, which disintegrates him and creates a chain reaction of the synthetic and organic parts of him into a new DNA, and therefore turning everyone into half-robot and half-organic who are touched by that chain reaction. Eeeh... I don't really know. I guess this would make sense but I'm given too little info as to how this works and it seems so contrived. (Definition: "Contrived" = An artificial setup. Unnatural convenience)

 

The moment when I truly realized how bullshit it was though was when it shows that EDI is now "alive". Anyone who's been paying attention beyond the surface-level plot knows that EDI's personality, her core, intelligence and everything she is basically, is stored in the Bluebox in Normandy's AI core where Liara was in ME1 and Legion in ME2. Not to be confused with the sexy robot body she's posessing.

 

EDI IS the Normandy, so if EDI's "Alive" then the Normandy has feelings too. A stationary PC has emotions and Kaidan's L2 Implants have a personality just like Kaidan (I'm kidding). See where I'm going with this? I'm pretty sure Bioware didn't even think this far, but that's the implications they make with such a choice. They were far in over their heads.

 

If that isn't the epitome of stupidity, I give up. I can't find anything else that's as stupid as that.

 

...and what's with the ending cutscene when you chose Synthesis? Showing me a husk gaining conciousness and empathy really doesn't do the choice any favors. I was disgusted by this, even saddened to think I've given conscious thought to millions of creatures who only wake up to realize how horrible they have been, and they're doomed to get PTSD and want to commit suicide. How is a Husk ever gonna develop any self-esteem around the advanced organic and synthetic races? It looks terrifying, and now it knows it!

[SwobyJ]

It was executed poorly in ME3, but overall, the idea and the concept is very real. It follows the premise of a technological singularity.

 

Singularity is magic, to those before the singularity.

 

The whole idea of it is that it goes so far beyond any technological growth that we as humans can understand, that those who remain 'fully human' cannot comprehend it anymore.

 

Technological singularity is like a pre-human species being tasked to comprehend current 2015 human technology.

 

You could imagine that there's been many different kinds of 'singularities' throughout our history. For example, one in a world without automobiles could barely imagine the world in which automobiles are commonplace. One in a world that is limited to an island could barely understand the world that spans the Earth.

However, these are not technological singularities, but smaller 'other' singularities involving other things. Geography, transportation - and even then, those words might not be the best to use.

The technological singularity involves the growth of technology happening so much, so quickly, that it defies not just current belief, but current prediction models. Essentially, it escapes our understanding of the world until it happens. If a person in 1700 was placed in a car, they still would not be able to predict anything of the world with cars. If a person was put into a city across the world from their hidden island, for 5 minutes, they still would not be able to predict anything of the world beyond. They lack both the individual (beliefs) and the collective (modelling) aspects to understand the beyond.

 

But when we use both the individual and collective understandings, as proponents of the 'Singularity' seem to indicate, we can at least have an inkling of the world to come and when it may arrive.

 

Its all very religious sounding, tbh, though not especially deistic.

 

The big deal about the tech singularity is that we move past the 'human'. In that, 'Synthesis' is at least partially the technological singularity. It may not be the 'full' thing, since we see people/entities in the slides still take human form, seem to behave remotely human, etc, whereas the tech singularity concept seems to describe a world which has moved largely beyond the human and even any sort of physical boundaries.

 

You could say that Synthesis is the start of a Singularity future, but it isn't exactly the same thing. Its the Singularity choice, but not the initial outcome. EDI's words are what indicate that it may happen though.

 

And the Post-Singularity world, to us, is very much space magic. It uses and does things that are mysterious, beyond our understanding, and considered by current understandings to be supernatural.

[God]

You don't need to tell me what a singularity is.

 

That said, it's not magic. It's science we don't understand yet, and likely won't until we ourselves induce one.

[God]

A fallacies! Fallacies everywhere!