372 réponses à ce sujet

[Reorte]

I think the lack of setup is one of the reasons I hate it so much. If it had all been better set up (and the method didn't seem so far-fetched even within the far-fetched ME universe) then at least it would feel like something that belonged in the game. I still couldn't see me choosing it but there are plenty of other choices I don't make and strongly dislike (other than when doing a "see what happens" type playthrough) that the game would be much poorer without and think it's good that they're there.

[Gothfather]

So here's Synthesis with Renegade options used. Seems the Wreav's outcome is the same as the one in Control, where the Reapers took out his army. And the Genophage gets cured, despite being destroying the cure in the main game. But since there's no Wrex and Eve, we don't get those cool buildings they made.

 

But yeah, no brainwashing from what I can see.

 

https://www.youtube....Q-Y_U3pTw#t=808

Pfft where do you get the Wreav's army is destroyed, Wreav isn't changed? Edi simply says that it takes others a little longer to reap the benefits of this new utopia that was imposed on everything. If you can't see any brain washing that is because you are being willfully blind because that doesn't fit the narrative you want.

 

Why would having synthetic dna stop conflict? Humans share the same DNA NOW and we are more than willing to kill each other. This idea that conflict is a simple lack of understanding is such an adolescent and childish view of conflict. The only way this bloody green beam can stop conflict is to eliminate teh option of conflict and the only way to do that is via mind control.

[TMA LIVE]

Pfft where do you get the Wreav's army is destroyed, Wreav isn't changed? Edi simply says that it takes others a little longer to reap the benefits of this new utopia that was imposed on everything. If you can't see any brain washing that is because you are being willfully blind because that doesn't fit the narrative you want.

 

Why would having synthetic dna stop conflict? Humans share the same DNA NOW and we are more than willing to kill each other. This idea that conflict is a simple lack of understanding is such an adolescent and childish view of conflict. The only way this bloody green beam can stop conflict is to eliminate teh option of conflict and the only way to do that is via mind control.

 

How is it brainwashing if we see the same slides no matter what ending you picked?

 

And I don't think changing someone's DNA will stop conflict. That's the one thing I think the Catalyst is full of crap on. I think the Catalyst is just changing us because it's cheating. If there's no more Synthetics and Organics, and we just become "Synthesis Species", then it no longer has a "Synthetic vs Organic" problem it needs solving, and thus the Reapers can stop harvesting. If synthesis creatures start nuking each other, it doesn't care, because it's not programmed to solve that problem. It's the same thing like it was doing before. Cheating. If it can't solve the problem, it controls and preserves us so it never happens.

[Iakus]

How is it brainwashing if we see the same slides no matter what ending you picked?

 

 

Because in Control there's a huge fleet of Reaper ships that is there specifically to stop Wreav from getting payback on the other races.  But Synthesis emphasizes the whole "perfect understanding" thing.  Between the Catalyst and EDI's speech, everything was peace-love-dope.  The implication is not that Wreav was unable to stir up trouble, but that he had a radical change of heart.  Thanks to Synthesis.

[Gothfather]

How is it brainwashing if we see the same slides no matter what ending you picked?

 

And I don't think changing someone's DNA will stop conflict. That's the one thing I think the Catalyst is full of crap on. I think the Catalyst is just changing us because it's cheating. If there's no more Synthetics and Organics, and we just become "Synthesis Species", then it no longer has a "Synthetic vs Organic" problem it needs solving, and thus the Reapers can stop harvesting. If synthesis creatures start nuking each other, it doesn't care, because it's not programmed to solve that problem. It's the same thing like it was doing before. Cheating. If it can't solve the problem, it controls and preserves us so it never happens.

The slides don't dictate the whole, did you actually listen to the NARRATIVE between the different endings? The narrative tells more of the difference vs the slides. You are cherry picking "facts" so you can be wilfully blind to the fact that synthesis must include mind control for it to work. Why would being part synthetic solve the organic vs synthetic gulf? Synthetic life is created why wouldn't any new life created not want to break the bonds imposed by it creators? If being all organic never stopped organics from being in conflict with each other why would being part organic and part synthetic stop conflict between the originally synthetic and the originally organic? There is zero rational reason for this to end the conflict without some kind of control.

 

The root cause of synthetic vs organic life isn't that one is synthetic and one is organic but rather because one was created to be servants of the other. That doesn't change with synthesis, so why does synthesis stop the conflict? Why is it no longer a worry? The logical conclusion is that you no longer have that option available so some kind of control is employed. This leads very strongly to the "it just does" response which means its space magic.

[TMA LIVE]

Because in Control there's a huge fleet of Reaper ships that is there specifically to stop Wreav from getting payback on the other races.  But Synthesis emphasizes the whole "perfect understanding" thing.  Between the Catalyst and EDI's speech, everything was peace-love-dope.  The implication is not that Wreav was unable to stir up trouble, but that he had a radical change of heart.  Thanks to Synthesis.

 

But that's not the case in the ending I posted. There's nothing there about a change of heart from Wreav. All it shows is that his army is dead.

 

The only other difference is that the Krogan have gain knew knowledge, and probably because of synthesis, not only was the Genophage cured overtime, but they might've evolved past aggression. And Wreav is in none of those slides.

 

I've also heard that if I kept Eve alive, even with Synthesis, he still kills her. So if that's true, then yeah, no brainwashing.

[Han Shot First]

The Crucible is just a power source. The decision chamber is part of the Citadel.

 

The Catalyst/Reapers wouldn't have created something with the purpose of destroying themselves. Destroy annihilates both the Reapers and the Catalyst and Control pulls the plug on the Catalyst. That must mean that when the Crucible docks with the Citadel the decision chamber is repurposed from serving some other function on the Citadel. 

 

So we're back at why design the Crucible to perform three entirely different solutions to a single problem? The finale of Mass Effect made little sense.  

 

Actually the whole Crucible project makes little sense in the way it is presented from the start. "We don't know what it does..but we're building it." If you are able to decipher the plans for it and figure out how to build it, you should also be able to understand what it is. Having the Crucible's function be mystery until the last few minutes of the game was silly.

[Asharad Hett]

Actually the whole Crucible project makes little sense in the way it is presented from the start. "We don't know what it does..but we're building it." If you are able to decipher the plans for it and figure out how to build it, you should also be able to understand what it is. Having the Crucible's function be mystery until the last few minutes of the game was silly.

 

It's obvious that Bioware didn't know what the Crucible would do until they reached the end of development.  Kinda like how Stephen King didn't know what was in the Dark Tower for the first 20 years.   Both were mysteries that the writers had no plans to solve until it became absolutely necessary.  

[78stonewobble]

It is by orders of magnitude more unbelievable than FTL, Reapers and Shepard dying from re-entry and getting resurrected.

 

Also It doesn't "solve" anything and doesn't stop some form of "reapings".

 

You would still regularly need to "scrub"/synthesize/transmutate every hitherto unknown planet, dwarfplanet, moon, asteroid, comet, flake of spacedust, where life dared develop and potentially building an AI more powerfull than anything else combined and you would have to do it in pretty much the entire universe or atleast the milky way, tho that is only solving the problem for 0.000000000001 % of everything tho...

 

PS: And yes... offfcourse it is brainwashing.

[wright1978]

The whole decision chamber finale was silly from a perspective of the Crucible's design. Why would you design it to perform three entirely different functions, when only one was needed? That seems like it would be a violation of KISS for starters. 

 

The devs would have been better off locking in one solution to the Reapers and building the series towards that conclusion. Have player choices instead impact things of smaller scale, similar to how in DA:O's finale there was only one method of dealing with the archdemon, but player choices impacted factions in the game or characters you encountered. 

 

Also built either by a sadist or someone too lazy to build any proper activation interface.

 

Locking in a single ending was certainly one option. Though for long time i've felt that when the crucible plans were found there should have been more than one version of the schematics. Then as it is built players should be presented with choices each with inherent benefits and costs. Need for the awful catalyst would be gone, players wouldn't get ambushed at last second, other characters would get to give their views on their preferred priorities etc.

[GalacticWolf5]

The Catalyst/Reapers wouldn't have created something with the purpose of destroying themselves. Destroy annihilates both the Reapers and the Catalyst and Control pulls the plug on the Catalyst. That must mean that when the Crucible docks with the Citadel the decision chamber is repurposed from serving some other function on the Citadel. 

 

So we're back at why design the Crucible to perform three entirely different solutions to a single problem? The finale of Mass Effect made little sense.

 

This doesn't have any real answer, only theories. Mine is that the first species who built the Crucible also changed the Citadel, adding the Destoy option. In other cycles, or maybe the same (that's not important), someone added the option to control the Reapers and later someone added the Synthesis option. They built the decison chamber on the Citadel because it was the Citadel that would disperse the energy, received from the Crucible, in whatever way chosen.

[themikefest]

 

So we're back at why design the Crucible to perform three entirely different solutions to a single problem? The finale of Mass Effect made little sense.  

Here's what I posted in the thread. Its not the best explanation, but its the only one I could come up with

[Vazgen]

The Catalyst/Reapers wouldn't have created something with the purpose of destroying themselves. Destroy annihilates both the Reapers and the Catalyst and Control pulls the plug on the Catalyst. That must mean that when the Crucible docks with the Citadel the decision chamber is repurposed from serving some other function on the Citadel. 

 

So we're back at why design the Crucible to perform three entirely different solutions to a single problem? The finale of Mass Effect made little sense.  

 

Actually the whole Crucible project makes little sense in the way it is presented from the start. "We don't know what it does..but we're building it." If you are able to decipher the plans for it and figure out how to build it, you should also be able to understand what it is. Having the Crucible's function be mystery until the last few minutes of the game was silly.

There is a thread here, The Catalyst Deception that presents an interesting idea on the Citadel contraption. 

It can be summarized as this:

The Crucible shoots automatically when docked with the Citadel.

Reapers learned of the Crucible plans at some point, thought they were destroyed but added a backup option just in case.

The contraption stops Crucible from shooting automatically and modifies its energy to suit Reaper agenda.

Destroy - destroys the contraption, freeing the Crucible and letting it to perform its function.

 

The other two options are attributed to indoctrination in that thread. 

I think Control gives Reapers new perspective on organic vs synthetic conflict and they take another course of action instead of harvest. Our solution won't work anymore.

Synthesis (I wish they didn't have that BS in the game) is what the Reapers intended to use the Crucible for.

[TMA LIVE]

There is a thread here, The Catalyst Deception that presents an interesting idea on the Citadel contraption. 

It can be summarized as this:

The Crucible shoots automatically when docked with the Citadel.

Reapers learned of the Crucible plans at some point, thought they were destroyed but added a backup option just in case.

The contraption stops Crucible from shooting automatically and modifies its energy to suit Reaper agenda.

Destroy - destroys the contraption, freeing the Crucible and letting it to perform its function.

 

The other two options are attributed to indoctrination in that thread. 

I think Control gives Reapers new perspective on organic vs synthetic conflict and they take another course of action instead of harvest. Our solution won't work anymore.

Synthesis (I wish they didn't have that BS in the game) is what the Reapers intended to use the Crucible for.

 

That's a good theory. Though that still doesn't explain why it allows the Destroy ending to be picked if it's the only option.

 

I think the reason why it allows you to pick Destroy is again, it achieves it's agenda even if they're destroyed. If every synthetic is destroyed, there's no reason to continue the current cycle. There's the possibility we'll invent or rebuild synthetics, but there's also the possibility we won't. Or, now that Organics have a one shot kill for all synthetics if such an outcome happens, that might be suitable solution. It doesn't like Destroy because it kills it too, as well as the Reapers, but either way, it has to accept it. It knows it's solution won't work anymore because organics keeps hiding stuff for the next cycle to find. It knows there's too high of a chance of Liara's archives being missed, and found by the next cycle. And the damage this cycle's war will cause will cost too much to make up for. So it's making a last compromise with Shepard. Pick one of these outcomes, so there's a new solution before the Reapers don't have the power to do anything about it. And if Shepard says no, then "Screw you Shepard. I'm continuing this cycle then. I'll find all Liara's archives, destroy them all, and move on." Which doesn't happen, one is found, and die it does.

[Memnon]

Forget Wreav, think about everyone else - step back and think about how people are supposed to instantly live in peace with the Reapers like they are long, lost green glowy buddies you invite to a barbecue, after they've just spent the past few months destroying cities, murdering people, and turning them into mindless, cyberzombies and primordial Reaper goo. At what level of "understanding" do you have to exist to not want to exact vengeance on them? I would say that is "mind control" level understanding there. If having green glowy bits makes everyone drop all hostilities and forget the horrors that the Reapers have done, then what else could even remotely explain that?

[Memnon]

...

[Valmar]

Forget Wreav, think about everyone else - step back and think about how people are supposed to instantly live in peace with the Reapers like they are long, lost green glowy buddies you invite to a barbecue, after they've just spent the past few months destroying cities, murdering people, and turning them into mindless, cyberzombies and primordial Reaper goo. At what level of "understanding" do you have to exist to not want to exact vengeance on them? I would say that is "mind control" level understanding there. If having green glowy bits makes everyone drop all hostilities and forget the horrors that the Reapers have done, then what else could even remotely explain that?

 

Ever heard of Buddha?

 

In the paradise utopia synthesis represents we've all gained true understanding and ascendance. We've cast aside the brutal and primitive thoughts that once divided us and we now accept one another. The idea that people can reach a state of being where they don't want vengeance is not unheard of. It isn't even something unique to the fictional world, we have examples of such behavior in the real world as well. It very clearly isn't an impossible scenario if we have evidence of it happening in the real world.

 

Also its important to keep in mind what the reapers are really doing. They believe their cause is just. They harvest and preserve us to make way for new life, ensuring the survival of organics and preserving the old cycles in immortal reaper form. They view themselves as our salvation. Once we have full understanding and awareness of one another we can grasp their perspective and see that what they did they sincerely viewed as necessary and for our own good. With the billion+ years of knowledge and perspective of the galaxy and the collective consensus of all the species that came before us we will be able to understand.

 

Say you have a tribe that still live in the stone age. They're dying and suffering of horrible diseases that we can easily cure. They refuse to accept our aid, believing us to be the devil and curse our names. We cure them all anyway. Now they continue living and are no longer suffering or disease ridden and can go on to be something better than they were before. Same general principle with the reapers, just on a cosmic scale. They view themselves as our salvation and without them we are doomed, based off the empirical evidence of countless generations and cycles before us. That is the fictional universe Mass Effect provides, that is the pattern that exists in the lore.

 

At anyrate I certainly would think that a 'perfected' galaxy where everyone uses sound logic, reason and works together in harmony with one another would be able to cast aside old grudges. Same goes for those who think people would treat husks differently or view them as monsters. Such trivial things would finally be beyond us. We're all one. True unity and peace all around. Thats the magical fairytale splendor that is synthesis. We'll never be able to move on to a bigger and brighter future if we're not able to move away from our past. LOL.

[dorktainian]

nothing can excuse the mass genocide going on in mass effect 3.

[Valmar]

nothing can excuse the mass genocide going on in mass effect 3.

 

"There is no war. Only the harvest."

"This about it: if they wanted all organic life destroyed, they could do it. There would be nothing left."

[dorktainian]

yeah but the derpers don't want to help us, they want to kill us.  Ascension.  Into the reaper matrix.  You can live forever if you want.   no danger of overcrowding in reaperville.  Remember that derper that made big craters and slaughtered your friends?  now it's helping fix your house.  When it's somehow fixed your house without killing your neighbours, it'll join hands with all humanity while we sing a huge Kumbaya and have parties with cakes and circuits because all the plantlife is synthetic now... and unedible.  hey you want a carvery?  tough luck.  Synthesis.  There is no hunger because you cannot eat data.  You are now data.  We lost.  

 

That's my theory.

 

 

Good luck with that.

[Valmar]

They don't want to kill us, though. That isn't the lore at all.

[Iakus]

"There is no war. Only the harvest."

"This about it: if they wanted all organic life destroyed, they could do it. There would be nothing left."

 

Ant.

 

Boot.

 

There may not be a quarrel, but there is a fundamental disagreement.

[Memnon]

They don't want to kill us, though. That isn't the lore at all.

 

But they do kill us - what they want is irrelevant, what is tangible fact is that they have murdered trillions of beings over the course of billions of years. I reject entirely the "enlightenment leads to everlasting peace" pseudo-philosophical bunk. I have a family, the argument I'm hearing is that if the Reapers turned my children into goo and my wife into a husk, then I would be okay with it because I'm now enlightened? Sure, I'll never grow old with my wife, see my kids grow up, graduate from high school, college ... but then, I'm enlightened like Buddha, so it's all good. No ...

[Valmar]

Your family would still be alive. The paste is to preserve the individual, so they'd be alive in some form. Think of the Virtual Aliens. The husks still retain their original identity according to the lore so with the reaper indoctrination removed they could theoretically return back, mentally speaking.

 

They DON'T want to kill us, and it is not a tangible fact that they have murdered trillions. Perspective is key, context is crucial. They are only dead by your limited understanding of life and the process of the harvest. It is impossible for man to fly, it is impossible to make tons of metal soar through the sky. Until our understand changed, this was believed to all be fact. It is impossible for man to go to the moon. Until we do.

 

In the lore of Mass Effect, which is fictional scifi btw so don't be too hurt if it doesn't suit real-life standards you have, the harvest is not perceived as death by the reapers. They preserve, they help us ascend. Each reaper is a billion organic minds conjoined together. They embody the collective consciousness of civilizations. Just like the Thorian can get the collective knowledge of protheans from eating their bodies. Just as the rachni pass their memories down genetically. Just as protheans store memories, knowledge and experience on hardware. Just as the Virtual Aliens essentially transfer their very being, their souls, into servers and even other's bodies like vessels. This is all presented to us in the Mass Effect universe. How you feel about it in real life is irrelevant, its all true in the fictional lore.

 

My point of mentioning Buddha is that if you WERE enlightening you wouldn't want revenge. Believe it or not, there are people who believe in peace and understanding and no matter how wronged they may be by others they never wish anything bad on them. It's hard to imagine it but these people do exist. Unlike the rest of the things I mentioned this ISN'T limited to the fictional universe, its a very real thing that we can find examples of in the real world. Just because you don't see yourself being capable of it doesn't mean its impossible for such a state of being to be possible, as evidence clearly shows. Personally I envy those who are capable of having such a tranquil state of mind. 

[StarcloudSWG]

Yeah, it's kinda appropriate you keep mentioning Buddhism. Because the state of Nirvana that you're aiming for is literally a state of non-existence. You do not exist anymore when you reach Nirvana. Your personality is gone. You have no ego, no desires, no wants, no needs, nothing.

 

Mind control like the Reapers do, wiping out personality in favor of a single predetermined template, yeah, that's so praiseworthy. Especially since its forced on you from outside.