372 réponses à ce sujet

[Reorte]

They don't want to kill us, though. That isn't the lore at all.

They have no qualms about killing us though, and treating those they don't kill incredibly unpleasantly. What they say is either condescending or insulting. The Reapers appear to have no concern whatsoever about individuals and suffering, and not much for the civilisations they're destroying, just as long as they keep a record of what that civilisation was.

[Iakus]

Your family would still be alive. The paste is to preserve the individual, so they'd be alive in some form. Think of the Virtual Aliens. The husks still retain their original identity according to the lore so with the reaper indoctrination removed they could theoretically return back, mentally speaking.

 

They DON'T want to kill us, and it is not a tangible fact that they have murdered trillions. Perspective is key, context is crucial. They are only dead by your limited understanding of life and the process of the harvest. It is impossible for man to fly, it is impossible to make tons of metal soar through the sky. Until our understand changed, this was believed to all be fact. It is impossible for man to go to the moon. Until we do.

 

In the lore of Mass Effect, which is fictional scifi btw so don't be too hurt if it doesn't suit real-life standards you have, the harvest is not perceived as death by the reapers. They preserve, they help us ascend. Each reaper is a billion organic minds conjoined together. They embody the collective consciousness of civilizations. Just like the Thorian can get the collective knowledge of protheans from eating their bodies. Just as the rachni pass their memories down genetically. Just as protheans store memories, knowledge and experience on hardware. Just as the Virtual Aliens essentially transfer their very being, their souls, into servers and even other's bodies like vessels. This is all presented to us in the Mass Effect universe. How you feel about it in real life is irrelevant, its all true in the fictional lore.

 

My point of mentioning Buddha is that if you WERE enlightening you wouldn't want revenge. Believe it or not, there are people who believe in peace and understanding and no matter how wronged they may be by others they never wish anything bad on them. It's hard to imagine it but these people do exist. Unlike the rest of the things I mentioned this ISN'T limited to the fictional universe, its a very real thing that we can find examples of in the real world. Just because you don't see yourself being capable of it doesn't mean its impossible for such a state of being to be possible, as evidence clearly shows. Personally I envy those who are capable of having such a tranquil state of mind. 

So everyone who dies fighting the Reapers isn't really dead?

 

Everyone indoctrinated and left to starve when the Reapers leave?

 

The surplus population once they have enought ot build a Reaper?

 

Sorry but I don't think the "collective consciousness" is living.  Just because SHepard has the CIpher doesn't mean Protheans live on through him/her.  It's just data meant to provide perspective.  Not a digitized soul.

 

And I don't believe in forcing "enlightenment" on people.  Wisdom is a path you walk alone.  Others can aid you, but there are no shortcuts, technological or otherwise.  FOrcing people to accept your own "wisdom" is to me the greatest violation of free will.

[Memnon]

Off the top of my head, Jenkins and Nihlus are dead, and that's not getting past the first mission of ME1. The people on the shuttle destroyed by the Reapers in the cutscene in which you leave earth in ME3 ... they're not coming back. There are a great many people who are indeed dead, and if "enlightenment" means you don't feel sadness or heartbreak or anger at losing them, then I want none of that. I don't envy people who don't feel that, I pity them. I fully admit to being human, I feel love, anger, happiness, sadness - if being enlightened (especially against my will) means that I have to give those up, I'll choose being human. 

[Valmar]

Yeah, it's kinda appropriate you keep mentioning Buddhism. Because the state of Nirvana that you're aiming for is literally a state of non-existence. You do not exist anymore when you reach Nirvana. Your personality is gone. You have no ego, no desires, no wants, no needs, nothing.

 

Mind control like the Reapers do, wiping out personality in favor of a single predetermined template, yeah, that's so praiseworthy. Especially since its forced on you from outside.

 

First off, I never said I was aiming for anything. I was presenting the perspective the reapers have, not something I'm aiming for. I was merely reciting lore.

 

Second, I'd argue that reapers do actually retain traces of personality. Harbinger, Sovereign and the Rannoch reaper all had rather distinct personalities. We don't actually know how the harvest process works or the result. We're told that a reaper is a billion minds. That they're all conjoined to form one consciousness. 

 

 

They have no qualms about killing us though, and treating those they don't kill incredibly unpleasantly. What they say is either condescending or insulting. The Reapers appear to have no concern whatsoever about individuals and suffering, and not much for the civilisations they're destroying, just as long as they keep a record of what that civilisation was.

 

True. They still harvest the majority of us. I was speaking in general terms. Infact, based off how the cycle traditionally works an even larger percentage are usually preserved rather than killed. The only reason we see as much death as we do this time around is because the cycle was altered by Shepard's involvement. The reaper's traditional method has been tampered with.

 

 

So everyone who dies fighting the Reapers isn't really dead?

 

Everyone indoctrinated and left to starve when the Reapers leave?

 

The surplus population once they have enought ot build a Reaper?

 

Sorry but I don't think the "collective consciousness" is living.  Just because SHepard has the CIpher doesn't mean Protheans live on through him/her.  It's just data meant to provide perspective.  Not a digitized soul.

 

And I don't believe in forcing "enlightenment" on people.  Wisdom is a path you walk alone.  Others can aid you, but there are no shortcuts, technological or otherwise.  FOrcing people to accept your own "wisdom" is to me the greatest violation of free will.

 

I didn't say that. You're taking me out of context to make me too absolutist and literal. The reapers harvest advanced civilizations. Yes, some are killed. The reapers are not here to kill us, however. They don't wish to kill us. We fight, they react. If they wanted to kill us it would be much easier than harvesting us. I'm presenting to you what is in the lore. It is not my speculation that the reapers do not want to kill us or view it as murder. It is lore.

 

The cipher is different from the reaper harvest. I wasn't meant to be a 1:1 comparison, it was a general sense. It was to elaborate on how elements of what the reaper's do exist in other parts of the lore already. What the reaper's do is essentially all those things I mentioned merged into one. The Virtual Aliens are, definitely, digitized souls. The tech they use allow us to jump into other bodies with ease as the bodies are nothing but vessels. This is lore, not my opinion.

You don't have to believe in it. I wasn't advocating it. I don't actually like the space magic mumbo jumbo ending. I'm only presenting the lore as we know it. You're more than welcome to reject the synthesis ending. I know I do.

 

 

Off the top of my head, Jenkins and Nihlus are dead, and that's not getting past the first mission of ME1. The people on the shuttle destroyed by the Reapers in the cutscene in which you leave earth in ME3 ... they're not coming back. There are a great many people who are indeed dead, and if "enlightenment" means you don't feel sadness or heartbreak or anger at losing them, then I want none of that. I don't envy people who don't feel that, I pity them. I fully admit to being human, I feel love, anger, happiness, sadness - if being enlightened (especially against my will) means that I have to give those up, I'll choose being human. 

 

Again, taking me out of context her and making my claims seem more absolutist than they are.

 

Also I find your method of accusing those who view things differently than you as being 'not human' to be rather disgusting. I prefer to accept that we all have different ways of viewing and handling things. We're all human. Just because you don't personally share the views of monks doesn't mean you should think of them as not being human and that you're somehow better.

[Memnon]

Again, taking me out of context her and making my claims seem more absolutist than they are.

 

Also I find your method of accusing those who view things differently than you as being 'not human' to be rather disgusting. I prefer to accept that we all have different ways of viewing and handling things. We're all human. Just because you don't personally share the views of monks doesn't mean you should think of them as not being human and that you're somehow better.

 

I don't want to get in a philosophical discussion over what it means to be human, and I did not mean to imply that monks are not human. I don't think I am better, I think I am a flawed human and I am okay with that. My point was to show at an individual level that there was loss, and that people will feel that loss. In context, I was responding to this:

 

Your family would still be alive. 

 

 

Not if they were on that shuttle. Or Jenkins' family. Multiply those individuals by thousands, millions, billions - I am sure that there may be some who will forgive and move on, but to say that number of people who would instantaneously feel nothing because of "enlightenment" is equal to zero seems absurd to me. 

[Valmar]

Not if they were on that shuttle. Or Jenkins' family. Multiply those individuals by thousands, millions, billions - I am sure that there may be some who will forgive and move on, but to say that number of people who would instantaneously feel nothing because of "enlightenment" is equal to zero seems absurd to me. 

 

You didn't say that though. You're changing the context of my argument. You specifically said your wife was a husk and children turned to goo. I was pointing out that within the context of the lore they wouldn't be dead if that was the case. You said nothing of them being on a shuttle.

 

Think of the rachni for an example. The rachni were just bugs, evil violent and dangerous bugs. Vicious monsters. There was no negotiation or dialogue with them, you just kill them. Then we realize that they're nothing like what we thought. We gain a new understand and a new perspective of the rachni and thus we're given the opportunity to change our position on them. This is what Synthesis is. We're all given a near infinite amount of knowledge, perspective and level of understanding we simply never had before.

 

As for it making zero sense to you, well, synthesis makes zero sense anyway. Regardless of it making sense to you or not it's still whats in the lore. You don't have to like the ending, it doesn't change what the lore is. Sadly. It isn't my fault synthesis makes no sense. I didn't write it.

[Memnon]

You didn't say that though. You're changing the context of my argument. You specifically said your wife was a husk and children turned to go. I was pointing out that within the context of the lore they wouldn't be dead if that was the case. You said nothing of them being on a shuttle.

 

Think of the rachni for an example. The rachni were just bugs, evil violent and dangerous bugs. Vicious monsters. There was no negotiation or dialogue with them, you just kill them. Then we realize that they're nothing like what we thought. We gain a new understand and a new perspective of the rachni and thus we're given the opportunity to change our position on them. This is what Synthesis is. We're all given a near infinite amount of knowledge, perspective and level of understand we simply never had before.

 

As for it making zero sense to you, well, synthesis makes zero sense anyway. Regardless of it making sense to you or not it's still whats in the lore. You don't have to like the ending, it doesn't change what the lore is. Sadly. It isn't my fault synthesis makes no sense. I didn't write it.

 

I did change the context, though that doesn't invalidate the argument. In the end, though, I do agree with your last paragraph - I've long maintained my issue is primarily with the writing and the way the endings were handled, especially Synthesis ...

[78stonewobble]

I would say that a person willing to force her/his/it's enlightenment on others would be very presumtious, arrogant and non enlightened.

 

EDIT: I also believe that what's on the "inside" matters more than what's on the "outside" and that if you fundamentally change a persons personality, that person seizes to exist. For all intents and purposes you have killed that person / entity. As opposed to a person gradually and evolving on her/his/it's own or even refusing to.

[Valmar]

I would say that a person willing to force her/his/it's enlightenment on others would be very presumtious, arrogant and non enlightened.

 

I would say that you paint it in a very black and white image. The world is far more gray. Would you feel the same if it was someone forcing Hitler to become a peaceful saint? Would they still be an arrogant, presumptuous non-enlightened person because they forcibly changed someone so fundamentally horrible?

 

 

EDIT: I also believe that what's on the "inside" matters more than what's on the "outside" and that if you fundamentally change a persons personality, that person seizes to exist. For all intents and purposes you have killed that person / entity. As opposed to a person gradually and evolving on her/his/it's own or even refusing to.

 

So basically, what happens everyday in our lives. If you go to school and learn knowledge and gain world experiences you change. Every day you're a different person. The only difference is that in synthesis you get this knowledge instantly and without consent. If we could download books of knowledge into our brains are we therefore dead the moment someone forces us to learn why torture and discrimination is wrong? If that kills you, then frankly I don't mourn that loss because the person you were sounds like a horrible individual if they actually needed to learn that.

 

The personalities are not themselves changed directly. We're just given the knowledge that leads to that change. Say you're from the middle ages. You adamantly believe flight is impossible, couldn't be done. It'd have to be magical powers or the work of supernatural beings for such a thing to exist. Then beam into his head the knowledge and understanding of science and flight. Did you just change his personality to believe flight is possible? No, you just gave him the knowledge and perspective he needed to understand how wrong he was so now he knows it is possible. 

 

People change based off of new experiences, perspectives and understanding ALL the time. Having that understanding given to you instantly doesn't mean you're now suddenly dead. It just means the transition is instant rather than having to take years to sink in. Goodness knows I wish we could teach people life lessons so quickly. Would be a lot less bigotry and hate in the world, I can tell you that much.

[fhs33721]

Why would having synthetic dna stop conflict? Humans share the same DNA NOW and we are more than willing to kill each other. This idea that conflict is a simple lack of understanding is such an adolescent and childish view of conflict. The only way this bloody green beam can stop conflict is to eliminate teh option of conflict and the only way to do that is via mind control.

As I understood it Synthesis doesn't remove conflict. It isn't even supposed to stop all conflict. All it does is to fulfill the cataclysts main objective which is "stop synthetics from wiping out all organic live." And indeed that can't happen any more. Since everyone/everything in the galaxy is partly organic and partly synthetic in future wars it doesn't matter who wins because either way organic and sythetic life will both still exist afterwards.

Synthesis ends the organic/synthetic conflict not by removing all conflic but by making sure that the line between synthetic and organic irrelevant, meaning that future conflict would be no different from wars between organic races in the past.

 

 

Forget Wreav, think about everyone else - step back and think about how people are supposed to instantly live in peace with the Reapers like they are long, lost green glowy buddies you invite to a barbecue, after they've just spent the past few months destroying cities, murdering people, and turning them into mindless, cyberzombies and primordial Reaper goo. At what level of "understanding" do you have to exist to not want to exact vengeance on them? I would say that is "mind control" level understanding there. If having green glowy bits makes everyone drop all hostilities and forget the horrors that the Reapers have done, then what else could even remotely explain that?

No mind control necessary for that really. What are the people of the galaxy going to do in  order to achieve that vengeance? Attack the Reapers? Start a war with them? Yeah good luck with that, I heard it worked out quite well for you the last time.

Well maybe the truly suicidal, stupid dumbas*es would try it but they'd die. The more resonable folks would probably be kind of bitter about it but keep the peace for the sake of self preservation if nothing else.

[fhs33721]

I would say that a person willing to force her/his/it's enlightenment on others would be very presumtious, arrogant and non enlightened.

 

EDIT: I also believe that what's on the "inside" matters more than what's on the "outside" and that if you fundamentally change a persons personality, that person seizes to exist. For all intents and purposes you have killed that person / entity. As opposed to a person gradually and evolving on her/his/it's own or even refusing to.

I have yet to see evidence of those fundamental changes that occur in everybodys personality in the Synthesis ending.

Except maybe the Reapers maybe. They do seem more friendly afterwards, though we don't hear any of them speak during the epilogue. Maybe Harbinger still is a arrogant pr*ck during reconstruction.

 

Harbinger: "Human, your method of repairing damaged buildings is primitive. I'll direct this construction site personally."

Construction worker: "What? You'd probably have to clear that with my boss."

Harbinger: "Your boss is bacteria, I am limitless. This inferior metal will not grant stability to this building for more than 274 years 9 months 12 days 1 hour and 23 seconds in total, but fear not I your infinite greater will be your salvation through delivering higher quality materials."

Constuction site boss: "What is going on here?"
Harbinger: "You have failed us and your whole inferior race. I am Assuming direct control over operations here."

Constuction site boss: "But..."

Harbinger: "Your protest is insignificant. You are dust struggling against the wind while the forces of the galaxy bend to me. This exchange is over!"

[Memnon]

So basically, what happens everyday in our lives. If you go to school and learn knowledge and gain world experiences you change. Every day you're a different person. The only difference is that in synthesis you get this knowledge instantly and without consent. If we could download books of knowledge into our brains are we therefore dead the moment someone forces us to learn why torture and discrimination is wrong? If that kills you, then frankly I don't mourn that loss because the person you were sounds like a horrible individual if they actually needed to learn that.

 

The personalities are not themselves changed directly. We're just given the knowledge that leads to that change. Say you're from the middle ages. You adamantly believe flight is impossible, couldn't be done. It'd have to be magical powers or the work of supernatural beings for such a thing to exist. Then beam into his head the knowledge and understanding of science and flight. Did you just change his personality to believe flight is possible? No, you just gave him the knowledge and perspective he needed to understand how wrong he was so now he knows it is possible. 

 

People change based off of new experiences, perspectives and understanding ALL the time. Having that understanding given to you instantly doesn't mean you're now suddenly dead. It just means the transition is instant rather than having to take years to sink in. Goodness knows I wish we could teach people life lessons so quickly. Would be a lot less bigotry and hate in the world, I can tell you that much.

 

Learning does not remove human emotions, desires, or individuality. A person from the middle ages, or ancient Greece, Rome, Persia, etc. had the same emotions and desires as we do today - we did not become a Gestalt consensus when we invented refrigeration, the internal combustion engine, or the internet. I am an engineer in a research and development group, I live in the impossible - I've never seen an "enlightened" utopia after a discovery. 

[Iakus]

I would say that you paint it in a very black and white image. The world is far more gray. Would you feel the same if it was someone forcing Hitler to become a peaceful saint? Would they still be an arrogant, presumptuous non-enlightened person because they forcibly changed someone so fundamentally horrible?

 

Yes.  It is one thing to show someone a different path, it's another to reach inside their minds and remove their free  will to "force" them into "enlightenment"

 

 

 

So basically, what happens everyday in our lives. If you go to school and learn knowledge and gain world experiences you change. Every day you're a different person. The only difference is that in synthesis you get this knowledge instantly and without consent. If we could download books of knowledge into our brains are we therefore dead the moment someone forces us to learn why torture and discrimination is wrong? If that kills you, then frankly I don't mourn that loss because the person you were sounds like a horrible individual if they actually needed to learn that.

The personalities are not themselves changed directly. We're just given the knowledge that leads to that change. Say you're from the middle ages. You adamantly believe flight is impossible, couldn't be done. It'd have to be magical powers or the work of supernatural beings for such a thing to exist. Then beam into his head the knowledge and understanding of science and flight. Did you just change his personality to believe flight is possible? No, you just gave him the knowledge and perspective he needed to understand how wrong he was so now he knows it is possible.

People change based off of new experiences, perspectives and understanding ALL the time. Having that understanding given to you instantly doesn't mean you're now suddenly dead. It just means the transition is instant rather than having to take years to sink in. Goodness knows I wish we could teach people life lessons so quickly. Would be a lot less bigotry and hate in the world, I can tell you that much.

 

Also Synthesis changes a person on a physical level.  It's not just "downloading books" into someone's mind.  It's rewriting their DNA.  If you have played Dragon Age Inquisition, it's akin to Dorian's personal mission "You tried to change me!"

 

These are not new experiences, it's physically and mentally altering people fit fit someone else's image of "perfection"  It's not physical death, but the death of personality.

[Valmar]

Learning does not remove human emotions, desires, or individuality. A person from the middle ages, or ancient Greece, Rome, Persia, etc. had the same emotions and desires as we do today - we did not become a Gestalt consensus when we invented refrigeration, the internal combustion engine, or the internet. I am an engineer in a research and development group, I live in the impossible - I've never seen an "enlightened" utopia after a discovery. 

 

I never said it removed all those things. We haven't seen an enlightened utopia, unfortunately, but there are examples of individuals reaching personal enlightenment from a discovery. Synthesis brings that on a galactic scale. I'm sure you've had your life shaped by one discovery or experience at some point in your life. It is through new information, understanding and perspective of the world that we as individuals can reach new consensus and enlightenment.

 

The examples I used earlier still hold true. The rachni act as a great example. What we once thought were mindless, violent savage bugs we find out to be a misunderstood and abused species that was unwillingly used as tools for war.

 

Look at the geth. We viewed them as the enemy, mechanical monsters that serve the reapers and want to kill us all. Then comes Legion and our perspective and understanding changes. If someone is raised by sexist, bigoted parents is it not best if they come to realize the folly of such views by experiencing life and getting new understanding and perspective? Synthesis works on a similar principle. We no longer view husks, synthetics or aliens as 'different' or 'monsters'. We're all one, a new framework, a new dna. We can cast aside the trivial differences that we once had and focused on cooperation and togetherness.

 

We're able to understand what the reapers are, because now they too are are us. We're all one people now. We know now what it means to be ascended and understand that what we thought was the limited definition of "life" was arbitrary. Peace and understanding can set way for a glorious future without fear of needless prosecution, petty grudges or senseless war. I could even point to the Control ending as being another example of such things. "The man I was used these words... but only now do I truly understand."

 

In the end it doesn't really matter if you feel this is all possible. Its the synthesis ending. Don't confuse my stance as being one in favor of the ending. I go Destroy, everytime. Simpler. Less thought required.

 

Yes.  It is one thing to show someone a different path, it's another to reach inside their minds and remove their free  will to "force" them into "enlightenment"

 

We're given no indication that their free will is removed or forced. They reached the enlightenment based off the knowledge forced on them, yes, but their conclusion wasn't implied a forced one. It was one they achieved on their own when given the new perspective and understanding.

 

Also, anyone who changes the minds of people like Hitler, be it with force or not, are heroes in my book. I care not for any moral white knighting argument that paints that as a negative. Such hateful and evil views need to be eradicated, regardless of it being through a "forced" enlightenment. This benefits all of humanity, any argument that claims such a thought is "arrogant, presumptuous and unenlightened" is immediately going to be tossed to the bin in my eyes. Arrogant or not.

 

 

Also Synthesis changes a person on a physical level.  It's not just "downloading books" into someone's mind.  It's rewriting their DNA.  If you have played Dragon Age Inquisition, it's akin to Dorian's personal mission "You tried to change me!"
 

 

Yes, it does change them on a physical level. I never said it doesn't. It isn't JUST "downloading books" but that IS part of it. I haven't played DA:I as I have practically no interest in it.

 

 

 

These are not new experiences, it's physically and mentally altering people fit fit someone else's image of "perfection"  It's not physical death, but the death of personality.

 

Physically altering people, yes. Mentally altering? Eh. In the same way having information and knowledge forcibly crammed in your brain is altering. You're still you, you just have a different understand and perspective. This type of argument could be used to say school systems are altering children by making them learn knowledge and gain an education. Not necessarily untrue but a weak argument nevertheless.

 

Personalities can change, evolve. Infact every day you're alive you're a little different. Experiences mold you, day by day. To stay "the same person" indefinitely is to deny any change of yourself, to live in a bubble where you never receive new knowledge, information or perspective. To "stay alive" in the context you present is to never grow as a person. If you had never went to school and was raised by yourself in the woods somewhere you'd be a completely different person. Since you weren't, the person you would be is dead now. Do you feel dead? I doubt it. You probably still feel like yourself, regardless of how different you  are from what you could had been, or what you were as a toddler.

 

You'll always be yourself, no matter how much you change. You'll always feel like you, even if you feel like the "old you" was a completely different person. To you, you're always you. That's how we work. Those in synthesis will still feel like themselves. Perspective is a powerful thing. You're always going to be you.

[Memnon]

In the end it doesn't really matter if you feel this is all possible. Its the synthesis ending. Don't confuse my stance as being one in favor of the ending. I go Destroy, everytime. Simpler. Left thought required.

 

I picked (high EMS) Destroy as well. My contention earlier in this thread is that it's not a matter of "space magic," as much as it is a threshold of "suspension of disbelief." I've long argued that Synthesis, as presented in ME3, simply shattered my ability to suspend disbelief - and I feel like I am very forgiving in that respect. 

[Iakus]

 

We're given no indication that their free will is removed or forced. They reached the enlightenment based off the knowledge forced on them, yes, but their conclusion wasn't implied a forced one. It was one they achieved on their own when given the new perspective and understanding.

 

Also, anyone who changes the minds of people like Hitler, be it with force or not, are heroes in my book. I care not for any moral white knighting argument that paints that as a negative. Such hateful and evil views need to be eradicated, regardless of it being through a "forced" enlightenment. This benefits all of humanity, any argument that claims such a thought is "arrogant, presumptuous and unenlightened" is immediately going to be tossed to the bin in my eyes. Arrogant or not.

 

The fact that it appears that every single person accepts the greeness, regardless of previous personal opinions, is a strong indicator that yes, free will was forced or removed.  We are talking untold billions of people from a dozen or more races.  And many different perspectives and attitudes.  That it comes up 100% "Green is A-OK with us" of their own free will is improbable to say the least.

 

And no, forcibly changing people's minds to remove crimethink is wrong.  Full stop.  Even if their thoughts are repugnant or hateful, i's still their thoughts.  They are still free to think them.  Try to convince them they're wrong, fine.  Intercede to keep them from harming others, okay.  But do NOT try to stamp smiley faces on their souls.

 

 

Yes, it does change them on a physical level. I never said it doesn't. It isn't JUST "downloading books" but that IS part of it. I haven't played DA:I as I have practically no interest in it.

 

Physically altering people, yes. Mentally altering? Eh. In the same way having information and knowledge forcibly crammed in your brain is altering. You're still you, you just have a different understand and perspective. This type of argument could be used to say school systems are altering children by making them learn knowledge and gain an education. Not necessarily untrue but a weak argument nevertheless.

 

 

Not really, because while teaching provides information, people can use that information based on their out personalities and outlooks.  And even draw different conclusion based on facts presented.  The universal peace-love-dope of Synthesis more resembles indoctrination (an comparisonn I am not the first to make) given the universal "epiphany" that everyone seems to come to.

 

After all, indoctrinated individuals all seem to come to the natural conclusion that they need to serve the Reapers.

 

As for the Dorian quest comparison:

 

Spoiler

Dorian's father wanted him to marry and have a child to continue Tevinter's centuries-long breeding program to create the "perfect mage" Dorian was not interested in this, because 1) he finds such loveless unions despicable.  His own parents couldn't stand each other and does not want that kind of life for himself  2) He's gay and uninterested in settling down with a woman anyway and 3) He finds Tevinter's obsession with magical power despicible, and his peple have forgotten what's really important.

 

His father grew desperate enough that he planned to perform a blood magic ritual (another thing Dorian is morally opposed to) to "change" his son's mind, to make him more amenable to this arranged marriage. Be a good Tevinter citizen and not shame the family.

 

You can see how this has pretty unpleasant implications, yes?

 

Personalities can change, evolve. Infact every day you're alive you're a little different. Experiences mold you, day by day. To stay "the same person" indefinitely is to deny any change of yourself, to live in a bubble where you never receive new knowledge, information or perspective. To "stay alive" in the context you present is to never grow as a person. If you had never went to school and was raised by yourself in the woods somewhere you'd be a completely different person. Since you weren't, the person you would be is dead now. Do you feel dead? I doubt it. You probably still feel like yourself, regardless of how different you  are from what you could had been, or what you were as a toddler.

You'll always be yourself, no matter how much you change. You'll always feel like you, even if you feel like the "old you" was a completely different person. To you, you're always you. That's how we work. Those in synthesis will still feel like themselves. Perspective is a powerful thing. You're always going to be you.

 

 

Yes, we are bombarded by information every day, everywhere we go.  but the thing is, we get to accept or reject that information.  It gets filtered through the prism that is me.  My own perspective and personality.  Through information I have received previously.  I triage the information based on how I got the information, who said it, and whenIt's not blindly processed and stored like a computer program. 

 

Synthesis, otoh, seems to have changed everyone the same, made everyone's outlook the same, No one rejected it, changed it, Everyone's mind is in lock-step.

[themikefest]

As for the Dorian quest comparison:

 

Spoiler

Dorian's father wanted him to marry and have a child to continue Tevinter's centuries-long breeding program to create the "perfect mage" Dorian was not interested in this, because 1) he finds such loveless unions despicable.  His own parents couldn't stand each other and does not want that kind of life for himself  2) He's gay and uninterested in settling down with a woman anyway and 3) He finds Tevinter's obsession with magical power despicible, and his peple have forgotten what's really important.

 

His father grew desperate enough that he planned to perform a blood magic ritual (another thing Dorian is morally opposed to) to "change" his son's mind, to make him more amenable to this arranged marriage. Be a good Tevinter citizen and not shame the family.

 

You can see how this has pretty unpleasant implications, yes?

 

That is messed up what his father tried to do

[Iakus]

That is messed up what his father tried to do

Yup.  My first thought when I played that was "This is Synthesis!"

[God]

Free will is overrated. There are many that don't deserve it.

[Valmar]

I picked (high EMS) Destroy as well. My contention earlier in this thread is that it's not a matter of "space magic," as much as it is a threshold of "suspension of disbelief." I've long argued that Synthesis, as presented in ME3, simply shattered my ability to suspend disbelief - and I feel like I am very forgiving in that respect. 

 

It certainly suspends belief. Though for me it was more the execution than the concept. The general idea of it isn't so hard to swallow, imo. I believe I made this comparison earlier in this topic but its kinda like Dues Ex Human Revolution's ending. Its the ridiculous method they went about it that done it in for me. Jump into a beam of light and magically change all life, right down to the trees, into synthetic-organic hybrids. Even the machines are 'alive' now. Can I have conversations with my toaster now I wonder?

 

The fact that it appears that every single person accepts the greeness, regardless of previous personal opinions, is a strong indicator that yes, free will was forced or removed.  We are talking untold billions of people from a dozen or more races.  And many different perspectives and attitudes.  That it comes up 100% "Green is A-OK with us" of their own free will is improbable to say the least.

 

And no, forcibly changing people's minds to remove crimethink is wrong.  Full stop.  Even if their thoughts are repugnant or hateful, i's still their thoughts.  They are still free to think them.  Try to convince them they're wrong, fine.  Intercede to keep them from harming others, okay.  But do NOT try to stamp smiley faces on their souls.

 

 

Free will doesn't have to be removed for people to have a dawning revelation that, shocking news, cooperation and togetherness is better than mindless destruction.

 

It doesn't remove crimethink. It gives you a new perspective. Those who treat the poor like trash might be less inclined to do so if they knew the hardship they go through. Perspective is a powerful thing. Synthesis gives us understanding and perspective. It doesn't change their thinking, the thinking changes on its own to adapt to the new information.

 

Again its like 'forcing' someone to accept the fact that flight is possible or going to the moon is possible. They might believe, with all their heart and soul, that it can't be done. Implant the knowledge and understanding that in their brain that it totally is possible. Make them understand it. You didn't just force them to go "yep, possible!" you convinced them of it by forcing them to understand it.

 

You don't need to make the synthesis ending more than what it was just to hate on it. It's bad enough as it is.

 

 

Not really, because while teaching provides information, people can use that information based on their out personalities and outlooks.  And even draw different conclusion based on facts presented.  The universal peace-love-dope of Synthesis more resembles indoctrination (an comparisonn I am not the first to make) given the universal "epiphany" that everyone seems to come to.

 

In the same vein that science indoctrinates people to use logical reasoning and deduction. You could perhaps relate the scenario similar to the geth consensus. They understood each other, they knew of the others perspective.

 

 

After all, indoctrinated individuals all seem to come to the natural conclusion that they need to serve the Reapers.

 

 

That's different and deeply more nuanced due to the various types of reaper indoctrination. Without delving too deeply into it, not all indoctrinated individuals come to the natural conclusion that they need to serve the reapers. Depending on the type of indoctrination, some simply have no choice in the matter. Husks, for example, didn't conclude to serve the reapers. They're controlled to do so. That doesn't mean the individual being controlled has been forced to conclude its necessary, they may be completely opposed to the idea. They don't have choice in the matter as their body is being controlled by the reapers. The mind can remain intact, without having any control of the body.

 

Again, just to ensure what I say isn't taken out of context, I'm not saying the reapers can't indoctrinate to subtly change someones mind or make them come to conclusions that favor the reapers. Only that that isn't how it works on ALL indoctrinated individuals. Indoctrination has different shapes and forms, afterall. 

 

 

Spoiler

Dorian's father wanted him to marry and have a child to continue Tevinter's centuries-long breeding program to create the "perfect mage" Dorian was not interested in this, because 1) he finds such loveless unions despicable.  His own parents couldn't stand each other and does not want that kind of life for himself  2) He's gay and uninterested in settling down with a woman anyway and 3) He finds Tevinter's obsession with magical power despicible, and his peple have forgotten what's really important.

 

His father grew desperate enough that he planned to perform a blood magic ritual (another thing Dorian is morally opposed to) to "change" his son's mind, to make him more amenable to this arranged marriage. Be a good Tevinter citizen and not shame the family.

 

You can see how this has pretty unpleasant implications, yes?

 

 

Certainly. That isn't the situation presented in synthesis, however. To put that tale more within the context of synthesis rather than have the mind forced to accept this view the father would put emphasis all the girls good qualities, traits, and give a full understanding of what her should like about her. The guy is of course still free to not to love her but love is a very subjective thing and there is nothing objective about it. Working together and casting aside trivial differences to be at peace is objectively beneficial to all. 

 

Synthesis doesn't force their minds to accept a view point. It gives them the understanding and perspective required to 'naturally' reach the conclusion of peaceful co-existence.

 

To go back to the example of the guy in the middle ages accepting flight... there is a difference between forcing him to just accept that flight is possible and giving him the information and knowledge required to get that conclusion. In both instances he ends up believing its possible, the difference is that in the one you present he believes it only because he has no choice. In the synthesis ending he believes it because he understands it.

 

 

Free will is overrated. There are many that don't deserve it.

 

We've only you to blame.

[themikefest]

Synthesis doesn't force their minds to accept a view point. It gives them the understanding and perspective required to 'naturally' reach the conclusion of peaceful co-existence.

What about the people who don't want that? Their life is already peaceful without having that other stuff

[Valmar]

What about the people who don't want that? Their life is already peaceful without having that other stuff

 

Guess they don't get to die then since their personalty won't be shaped by the new perspective. Lol.

 

Look, of course the physical change is still forced on them. I'm not saying they aren't forced into ANYTHING. Only that they aren't being brainwashed. That doesn't mean its a good ending and you should all love it. It's still a horrible mess and shouldn't exist, if that makes you feel any better.

 

Also, you didn't ask (now) but I'll mention that people turned to ash by reaper lasers are dead so you can rest soundly with that knowledge aswell.

[themikefest]

then since their personalty won't be shaped by the new perspective. Lol.

That's a good thing.

[Iakus]

 

Free will doesn't have to be removed for people to have a dawning revelation that, shocking news, cooperation and togetherness is better than mindless destruction.

 

It doesn't remove crimethink. It gives you a new perspective. Those who treat the poor like trash might be less inclined to do so if they knew the hardship they go through. Perspective is a powerful thing. Synthesis gives us understanding and perspective. It doesn't change their thinking, the thinking changes on its own to adapt to the new information.

 

Again its like 'forcing' someone to accept the fact that flight is possible or going to the moon is possible. They might believe, with all their heart and soul, that it can't be done. Implant the knowledge and understanding that in their brain that it totally is possible. Make them understand it. You didn't just force them to go "yep, possible!" you convinced them of it by forcing them to understand it.

 

You don't need to make the synthesis ending more than what it was just to hate on it. It's bad enough as it is.

 

Except people are contrary.  People may take the same information and come to radically different views.  One is less than two.  Two is less than three, and so on.  Synthesis seems to force everyone to think two is less than three.

 

I mean seriously, after billions of deaths, no one decided they didn't want Reapers around, even with all this green stuff in their eyes?  Cooperation or no?

 

Even if you can force understanding (a dubious claim, at least) you can't force acceptance.  ANd you can't force what is done with that knowledge.  Synthesis, it seems does.  

 

 

 

In the same vein that science indoctrinates people to use logical reasoning and deduction. You could perhaps relate the scenario similar to the geth consensus. They understood each other, they knew of the others perspective.

 

That's different and deeply more nuanced due to the various types of reaper indoctrination. Without delving too deeply into it, not all indoctrinated individuals come to the natural conclusion that they need to serve the reapers. Depending on the type of indoctrination, some simply have no choice in the matter. Husks, for example, didn't conclude to serve the reapers. They're controlled to do so. That doesn't mean the individual being controlled has been forced to conclude its necessary, they may be completely opposed to the idea. They don't have choice in the matter as their body is being controlled by the reapers. The mind can remain intact, without having any control of the body.

Again, just to ensure what I say isn't taken out of context, I'm not saying the reapers can't indoctrinate to subtly change someones mind or make them come to conclusions that favor the reapers. Only that that isn't how it works on ALL indoctrinated individuals. Indoctrination has different shapes and forms, afterall.

 

 

First you're assuming there is anything logical or deductive about Synthesis

 

You're also assuming that husks are at all sentient anymore rather than comparing characters like Saren, Kenson or TIM.  

 

 

 

Certainly. That isn't the situation presented in synthesis, however. To put that tale more within the context of synthesis rather than have the mind forced to accept this view the father would put emphasis all the girls good qualities, traits, and give a full understanding of what her should like about her. The guy is of course still free to not to love her but love is a very subjective thing and there is nothing objective about it. Working together and casting aside trivial differences to be at peace is objectively beneficial to all.
Synthesis doesn't force their minds to accept a view point. It gives them the understanding and perspective required to 'naturally' reach the conclusion of peaceful co-existence.
To go back to the example of the guy in the middle ages accepting flight... there is a difference between forcing him to just accept that flight is possible and giving him the information and knowledge required to get that conclusion. In both instances he ends up believing its possible, the difference is that in the one you present he believes it only because he has no choice. In the synthesis ending he believes it because he understands it.
We've only you to blame.

Except with Synthesis they have no choice.  It's beamed into their minds, written into their DNA.  There is no opportunity to challenge it, verify it, find another option.  It is the Reapers' perspective of "perfection" and you aren't allowed any other opinion. 

 

Dorian doesn't share his fathers' views.  DId his father have the right to "change his understanding?"

[Valmar]

I mean seriously, after billions of deaths, no one decided they didn't want Reapers around, even with all this green stuff in their eyes?  Cooperation or no?

 

Even if you can force understanding (a dubious claim, at least) you can't force acceptance.  ANd you can't force what is done with that knowledge.

 

Again missing context. Billions of harvested. It was a "for the greater good of all" type deal. The synthesized would be able to understand fully what the reapers represent and what they were striving to accomplish and why their objective was important.

 

You may not be able to force acceptance but acceptance can be a natural side effect to true understanding in Mass Effect as made evident to the geth. They understood each other perfectly and so they always accepted one another. It is only after they parted ways and stopped being connected did they eventually form a true divide. Coincidentally with this divide also came a loss of understanding of the heretics to the geth. As long as they remain one, they continued to understand one another and remain peaceful. Isn't it an interesting coincidence that the only time they're at peace with themselves is when they understand each other but when they're in conflict with each other they don't understand each other? With understanding comes peace.

 

 

First you're assuming there is anything logical or deductive about Synthesis

 

Synthesis, for all its problems can have hints of (ugh, this wordddd) logical and deductive qualities while still remaining overall a disaster.

 

Something does not have to be absolutely and utterly completely horrible and terrible in every feasible aspect for it to still be bad. Much like the ending itself. Rarely is anything ever so black and white, even if our emotions beg us to view it as such.

 

You're also assuming that husks are at all sentient anymore rather than comparing characters like Saren, Kenson or TIM.  

 

 

I'm not assuming, I'm reciting lore. Paul Grayson. Injected with reaper nanites (huskifaction) and is taken over by the reapers. He is now a husk with more skin attached. A tool for the reapers. Yet he remains aware. Mentally struggling and fighting but to no avail. He's a prisoner in his body, yet he's still in there.

 

Also, if I was to actually compare husks to Saren, Kenson or TIM (which I don't) it would actually help my argument that husks retain their original selves. Saren and TIM were both aware, at the end, of the indoctrination. Clearly they were still in there and not just being completely controlled by reapers if they were able to realize it and fight back. The husks are different in that, unlike the indoctrinated, they have no control whatsoever of their actions.

 

 

Except with Synthesis they have no choice.  It's beamed into their minds, written into their DNA.  There is no opportunity to challenge it, verify it, find another option.  It is the Reapers' perspective of "perfection" and you aren't allowed any other opinion.

 

All other options are wrong in synthesis. There is only one conclusion you can come to once presented with the new perspective because it is the only valid conclusion to come up. If I told you that if you jumped off of something you'd fall down and you deny it being true but then are forced to jump you'd have no other choice but to come to the conclusion that I was right. Synthesis is the inevitable path of all all life in the Mass Effect universe.

 

As for verifying it, it's already been verified. Once again, I go back to the example of the guy in the middle ages getting implanted knowledge and understand of science and flight. He doesn't need to 'verify' that flight is possible because its already been verified, he has that understanding and knowledge of this verification. He knows it already because it was already verified.

 

I don't need to prove that man can go to the moon, I already know its true. Its been verified and I understand it, all without having actually tried it myself.

 

Dorian doesn't share his fathers' views.  DId his father have the right to "change his understanding?"

 

Not in the context of how he did it, no, but that isn't the same as synthesis. His father was just going to brainwash him to go "yep, love 'er!"

 

Synthesis isn't brain washing. I also don't think synthesis could even force someone to love someone else, at least not in a "in-love" sense that leads to marriage. Seems like it'd be a trickier feat to pull off within the context of what synthesis does. Hm.

 

Though, I suppose, you might able to give him a perfect understanding of the woman he loves and hope that he concludes that he doesn't love the person she really is. Then a perfect understanding of the person you want him to marry and hope that he concludes that shes the type of person for him. Though even still this isn't really /forcing/ him to go with either one, just proving him with perspective and understand of them. It also doesn't guarantee he'd love either one. He might hate them both. He might love them both. Love is far too subjective to really be 'forced' within the limitations of synthesis.

 

Since, again, synthesis isn't mind control that forces you to view something X way. What Dorian's father is doing is exactly that. Synthesis doesn't force you to accept a doctrine, it forces you to have an understanding and perspective that ultimately leads to you coming to the conclusion of peace and coexistence. We all reach the pinnacle of enlightenment. Fairytale ending, how happy.