372 réponses à ce sujet

[fhs33721]

 

I mean seriously, after billions of deaths, no one decided they didn't want Reapers around, even with all this green stuff in their eyes?  Cooperation or no?

Seriously, why do people insist that the galaxy wouldn't  tolerate the Reapers around after Synthesis without mind control? There is no mind control necessary whatsoever. What are those people going to do to drive the Reapers away? If the Reapers want to stick around the others have no option but to to tolerate their presecne unless they want to restart a f*cking war they were loosing hard, which would be stupid, suicidal and downright insane.

This does raise the issue that the Reapers are still the most powerful beings in the universe after Synthesis but I don't see how people jump to the conclusion Nobody attacking Reapers in Synthesis-> mind control.

While the far more logical conclusion for me would be that the majority of the inhabitants of the galaxy isn't suicidal. I mean from their perspective it is: "Hey the Reapers stopped the assault and help us rebuild-> we better just go along with it instead of starting to attack them again, after all the last time they mopped the floor with us easily."

[katamuro]

You yourself have said which is the real problem. Its not the intolerance or mind control or anything like that. Its simple fact that Reaper, all reapers become self-aware sentient being that can do pretty much whatever they want. And they are the strongest force in the galaxy. If they decided to stay and help or just disappear into interstellar space, their power cannot be discounted, for all you know a few reapers might think that they want to bring about a Reaper empire, with the new synth-organic lesser species still weaker and possibly easier to bend to their will. Like Leviathan did but not skulking around an ass-end of the galaxy. 

Even if they are good and proper, and simply try to help, their presence would make them the new strategic weapons. Just making people partially synthetic doesnt make them into angels, there will be war sooner or later. What do reapers do then? What if some of them have allied with different sides? 

 

Reapers were made purposefully too powerful, unbeatable in standard warfare at least not in the long run, their presence in the galaxy would shift the power balance too much, the technology that they have, the millions of years of knowledge. Even the trillions of deaths on their tentacles. It would be like a Mass Effect age civilisation coming to current Earth and trying to deal with the different countries separately. The sudden jump in technology, or at least the sudden ability to jump the 150 years or so would destabilize the world, politically, it would crash the world's economy because pretty much everything would be obsolete and with the rapid manufacturing abilities of omni-tools and other future technology whole countries would go bankrupt simply because their factories and products would no longer be sellable. 

 

Reapers present in the galaxy in any kind of numbers, are a threat to the other civilisations. 

[Iakus]

Again missing context. Billions of harvested. It was a "for the greater good of all" type deal. The synthesized would be able to understand fully what the reapers represent and what they were striving to accomplish and why their objective was important.

 

You may not be able to force acceptance but acceptance can be a natural side effect to true understanding in Mass Effect as made evident to the geth. They understood each other perfectly and so they always accepted one another. It is only after they parted ways and stopped being connected did they eventually form a true divide. Coincidentally with this divide also came a loss of understanding of the heretics to the geth. As long as they remain one, they continued to understand one another and remain peaceful. Isn't it an interesting coincidence that the only time they're at peace with themselves is when they understand each other but when they're in conflict with each other they don't understand each other? With understanding comes peace.

 

 

The geth is actually a good example of why this universal acceptance is a ridiculous notion.  Here we have a form of life that operates on consensus, where all perspectives ar shared and analyzed before drawing a conclusion.  A completely rational species.  And even then they had a breakaway sect who, even having the same information as everyone else, drew a completely different conclusion.  To the point of breaking away from the consensus and forming their own.

 

And this was without bringing organic emotions into it.  Untold billions of people who have always been unique individuals, who do not share their life experiences in a quasi hive-mind.  Who would see this information differently and react differently.  Unless something else was imposing its will upon thier mind to ensure they reacted the "right"way.

 

 

I'm not assuming, I'm reciting lore. Paul Grayson. Injected with reaper nanites (huskifaction) and is taken over by the reapers. He is now a husk with more skin attached. A tool for the reapers. Yet he remains aware. Mentally struggling and fighting but to no avail. He's a prisoner in his body, yet he's still in there.

Also, if I was to actually compare husks to Saren, Kenson or TIM (which I don't) it would actually help my argument that husks retain their original selves. Saren and TIM were both aware, at the end, of the indoctrination. Clearly they were still in there and not just being completely controlled by reapers if they were able to realize it and fight back. The husks are different in that, unlike the indoctrinated, they have no control whatsoever of their actions.

 

I have not rad Retribution, so I do not know how husk-like Grayson ended up becoming.  But the husks in teh game do not appear to be sentient anymore.

 

But in any case, the indoctrinated individuals we talk to all seem to have reached a "valid" conclusion that they should serve the Reapers.  And it takes a strong mind, often with help, to resist it.  Kenson never recoverd.  They didn't have much of a chocie in accepting Reaper "truth"

 

 

All other options are wrong in synthesis. There is only one conclusion you can come to once presented with the new perspective because it is the only valid conclusion to come up. If I told you that if you jumped off of something you'd fall down and you deny it being true but then are forced to jump you'd have no other choice but to come to the conclusion that I was right. Synthesis is the inevitable path of all all life in the Mass Effect universe.

As for verifying it, it's already been verified. Once again, I go back to the example of the guy in the middle ages getting implanted knowledge and understand of science and flight. He doesn't need to 'verify' that flight is possible because its already been verified, he has that understanding and knowledge of this verification. He knows it already because it was already verified.

I don't need to prove that man can go to the moon, I already know its true. Its been verified and I understand it, all without having actually tried it myself.

 

You are comparing Synthesis to something that has already been tried and reproduced.  Which the Catalyst itself states is not the case.  Similarly, you are assuming that even if this truth and understanding was verified, that everyone would react the same way.  You are comparing natural laws with human nature.  Humans aren't that predictible.  now add in a dozen or so alien races and mind-sets.

 

 

Not in the context of how he did it, no, but that isn't the same as synthesis. His father was just going to brainwash him to go "yep, love 'er!"

Synthesis isn't brain washing. I also don't think synthesis could even force someone to love someone else, at least not in a "in-love" sense that leads to marriage. Seems like it'd be a trickier feat to pull off within the context of what synthesis does. Hm.

Though, I suppose, you might able to give him a perfect understanding of the woman he loves and hope that he concludes that he doesn't love the person she really is. Then a perfect understanding of the person you want him to marry and hope that he concludes that shes the type of person for him. Though even still this isn't really /forcing/ him to go with either one, just proving him with perspective and understand of them. It also doesn't guarantee he'd love either one. He might hate them both. He might love them both. Love is far too subjective to really be 'forced' within the limitations of synthesis.

Since, again, synthesis isn't mind control that forces you to view something X way. What Dorian's father is doing is exactly that. Synthesis doesn't force you to accept a doctrine, it forces you to have an understanding and perspective that ultimately leads to you coming to the conclusion of peace and coexistence. We all reach the pinnacle of enlightenment. Fairytale ending, how happy.

 

Dorian's father wasn't casting a love spell.  Love was never a factor.  He was trying to get his son to "understand" and accept his role in Tevinter society.  To change who and what Dorian is, so he would come to the "right" conclusion, for the sake of "peace and coexistence"

 

How enlightened

[General TSAR]

I'm interested in finding out why people consider synthesis as space magic. Mainly because I don't. Can I get some of the basics, so I can discuss if that's really space magic, or more of confusion and misinterpretation?

Shepard's life essence somehow connecting all organic and inorganic lifeforms together in eternal "harmony" is not magical bullsht?

[Iakus]

Shepard's life essence somehow connecting all organic and inorganic lifeforms together in eternal "harmony" is not magical bullsht?

To get back on topic, this.

 

There is nothing to say what makes SHepard so special, aside from "Shep's a cyborg" which really isn't that uncommon in the Mass Effect universe.  Shep is simply more extensively augmented than most (and, oddly enough, alive after being dead for two years)

[themikefest]

I say throwing Anderson's body in the beam, if that option was available, would get the same results as Shepard jumping in the beam

[Valmar]

The geth is actually a good example of why this universal acceptance is a ridiculous notion.  Here we have a form of life that operates on consensus, where all perspectives ar shared and analyzed before drawing a conclusion.  A completely rational species.  And even then they had a breakaway sect who, even having the same information as everyone else, drew a completely different conclusion.  To the point of breaking away from the consensus and forming their own.

 

And this was without bringing organic emotions into it.  Untold billions of people who have always been unique individuals, who do not share their life experiences in a quasi hive-mind.  Who would see this information differently and react differently.  Unless something else was imposing its will upon thier mind to ensure they reacted the "right"way.

 

Context, Iakus, context. You have to remember to keep these things in context. When the geth and heretics originally parted they understood each other perfectly. They accepted one another. It was only when the heretics were away from the geth, disconnected, no longer part of the whole, did they suddenly become so unknowable to the geth. Synthesis removes the ability for us to part from that connection like the heretics did. Therefor, just like the Geth, we'll stay in harmony with understanding of one another.

 

It is only when they stop being connected does the conflict arise. Also the heretics did not draw a different conclusion initially. The geth did not cast the heretics out. Neither result was an error. Legion tells you all this himself. The heretics were no wrong in the geth's eyes. It was really just a philosophical difference. They still understood and accepted one another.
 

 

I have not rad Retribution, so I do not know how husk-like Grayson ended up becoming.  But the husks in teh game do not appear to be sentient anymore.

 

But in any case, the indoctrinated individuals we talk to all seem to have reached a "valid" conclusion that they should serve the Reapers.  And it takes a strong mind, often with help, to resist it.  Kenson never recoverd.  They didn't have much of a chocie in accepting Reaper "truth"

 

This isn't relevant to the context, though. Again, you need to keep things in the proper context. There are different variances of reaper indoctrination. Signal based and nanite based. Each have their own nuances. True that the husks in the game do not appear to be sentient but so what? We never view the world through the eyes of the husk, we don't ever see the inner struggle. The game doesn't touch on it. The novel does. That is the point. Just because the game doesn't do it doesn't mean anything. This whole thing is actually more appropriate to delve into using a novel anyway, since that medium allows a more natural way of getting the perspective of others that we rarely find in other forms of media.

 

It may not be in the game but that doesn't change the fact that it is in the book and the novels are part of the lore. Other than Deception, anyway.

 

Infact, let me quote myself with what I said directly after the part you just quoted.

 

"Again, just to ensure what I say isn't taken out of context, I'm not saying the reapers can't indoctrinate to subtly change someones mind or make them come to conclusions that favor the reapers. Only that that isn't how it works on ALL indoctrinated individuals. Indoctrination has different shapes and forms, afterall."

 

Ironically, I'm still taken out of context.

 

Kenson's is a bit of a fringe case, her conclusion of worshiping the reapers was not directly forced by indoctrination. They stopped controlling her in the end yet she mourns the loss of their voice. She was genuinely swayed, she wasn't be forced to believe the reapers were saviors, they actually convinced her as such. She wasn't a prisoner to their control. Indoctrination has many nuances like this.

 

Either way this is all still irrelevant because my original point remains: husks retain their original selves. Keep that in mind next time you see the husk head in Byrson's office. Or any husk, really. Husks are horrifying creatures.

 

 

You are comparing Synthesis to something that has already been tried and reproduced.  Which the Catalyst itself states is not the case.  Similarly, you are assuming that even if this truth and understanding was verified, that everyone would react the same way.  You are comparing natural laws with human nature.  Humans aren't that predictible.  now add in a dozen or so alien races and mind-sets.

 

 

Context. I wasn't talking about the act of synthesis itself, I was talking about the peace and understanding that comes with it. Being synthesized is forced - I never said otherwise.  We'll know that reapers are life and that what they were doing was for the betterment of all. We'd have all those billion years worth of perspective that proves that it was a necessity. We'd also understand that the harvested are ascended, that they are not dead. They are immortalized in reaper form. We'd understand all that. We'd have a true understanding the reaper perspective.

 

As for human nature, synthesis isn't humanization. We wouldn't be human anymore. We'd all be one. All life, organic and synthetic, have been given a new dna. There are no humans and aliens. There are only synthesis. We're all one with each other. The pinnacle of all evolution, the utopia future without prejudiced or hate. Honestly the future synthesis introduces isn't even all that unique or original. That type of utopia has been written before in fantasy many times, minus the glowing green bits.

 

 

Dorian's father wasn't casting a love spell.  Love was never a factor.  He was trying to get his son to "understand" and accept his role in Tevinter society.  To change who and what Dorian is, so he would come to the "right" conclusion, for the sake of "peace and coexistence"

 

How enlightened

 

I don't know Dorian nor have I played the game. I was basing the argument over what you presented. You said his father wanted him to marry some girl and he didn't want to. So he was going to use magic to force him. Forcing someone to accept something isn't the same as giving them the understanding of it.

 

I could force a cave man to believe flight is possible "just because" with no context, just outright force him to accept it becuase he has no option. Or I could cram all the knowledge and information into his brain about it so that he now still believes it possible but now its because he understands it, not because he is forced to accept it. Both can net the same result but the means are very different. Coming to a conclusion based off understanding and knowledge is not the same as just being forced to come to the conclusion.

 

The scenario you bring up is not the same as what synthesis is, regardless of your desire for it to be so.

 

 

To get back on topic, this.

 

There is nothing to say what makes SHepard so special, aside from "Shep's a cyborg" which really isn't that uncommon in the Mass Effect universe.  Shep is simply more extensively augmented than most (and, oddly enough, alive after being dead for two years)

 

Adam Shepard Jensen. Lol.

[Iakus]

Context, Iakus, context. You have to remember to keep these things in context. When the geth and heretics originally parted they understood each other perfectly. They accepted one another. It was only when the heretics were away from the geth, disconnected, no longer part of the whole, did they suddenly become so unknowable to the geth. Synthesis removes the ability for us to part from that connection like the heretics did. Therefor, just like the Geth, we'll stay in harmony with understanding of one another.

 

It is only when they stop being connected does the conflict arise. Also the heretics did not draw a different conclusion initially. The geth did not cast the heretics out. Neither result was an error. Legion tells you all this himself. The heretics were no wrong in the geth's eyes. It was really just a philosophical difference. They still understood and accepted one another.
 

Yes, they understood each other, and disagreed, fundamentally.  To the point where they seperated from each other.  Knowledge and understanding =/= peaceful coexistence.  For that you need something akin to the Heretic Virus.  ANd that's for a races that shares perspectives. 

 

Now how about races where everyone is an individual?

 

This isn't relevant to the context, though. Again, you need to keep things in the proper context. There are different variances of reaper indoctrination. Signal based and nanite based. Each have their own nuances. True that the husks in the game do not appear to be sentient but so what? We never view the world through the eyes of the husk, we don't ever see the inner struggle. The game doesn't touch on it. The novel does. That is the point. Just because the game doesn't do it doesn't mean anything. This whole thing is actually more appropriate to delve into using a novel anyway, since that medium allows a more natural way of getting the perspective of others that we rarely find in other forms of media.

It may not be in the game but that doesn't change the fact that it is in the book and the novels are part of the lore. Other than Deception, anyway.

Infact, let me quote myself with what I said directly after the part you just quoted.

"Again, just to ensure what I say isn't taken out of context, I'm not saying the reapers can't indoctrinate to subtly change someones mind or make them come to conclusions that favor the reapers. Only that that isn't how it works on ALL indoctrinated individuals. Indoctrination has different shapes and forms, afterall."

Ironically, I'm still taken out of context.

Kenson's is a bit of a fringe case, her conclusion of worshiping the reapers was not directly forced by indoctrination. They stopped controlling her in the end yet she mourns the loss of their voice. She was genuinely swayed, she wasn't be forced to believe the reapers were saviors, they actually convinced her as such. She wasn't a prisoner to their control. Indoctrination has many nuances like this.

Either way this is all still irrelevant because my original point remains: husks retain their original selves. Keep that in mind next time you see the husk head in Byrson's office. Or any husk, really. Husks are horrifying creatures.

Well as far as I'm concerned, you shouldn't have to go to outside sources to understand what's going on in the freaking game.  And indoctrination doesn't just go away.  Just because the Reapers stopped speaking to kenson doesn't mean she was no longer indoctrinated:  she was.  SHe was simply bereft because she was left alone without her new gods.

 

But at any rate, you're assertion seems to be that if only people can have the "truth" beamed into their heads along with the proper context to understand it, everyone would ract to it the same way.  I say that if such was teh case, you are not teaching, you are indoctrinating.  No two people absorb information the same way. 

 

 

I don't know Dorian nor have I played the game. I was basing the argument over what you presented. You said his father wanted him to marry some girl and he didn't want to. So he was going to use magic to force him. Forcing someone to accept something isn't the same as giving them the understanding of it.

I could force a cave man to believe flight is possible "just because" with no context, just outright force him to accept it becuase he has no option. Or I could cram all the knowledge and information into his brain about it so that he now still believes it possible but now its because he understands it, not because he is forced to accept it. Both can net the same result but the means are very different. Coming to a conclusion based off understanding and knowledge is not the same as just being forced to come to the conclusion.

The scenario you bring up is not the same as what synthesis is, regardless of your desire for it to be so.

 

But what you are cramming into the person's brain here isn't laws of gravity or aerodynamics, or physics.  Scientific principles that can be demonstrated with repeatable experiments.  You're cramming your own version of philosophy and a very subjective perception of ethics and "perfection" and declaring it the only True Path To Enlightenment. 

 

The situations are very similar in my mind:  In both cases are being used to "correct" someones wrong-thinking in order to end conflict.  To change his thoughts.  Dorian already understood the reasoning behind the arrangement; Tevinter had been practicing this for centuries.  They are attempting to breed a better quality mage:  one that embodies all that Tevinter values.  They are trying to reach, in their perspective, the final evolution of human life.  And Dorian's father was trying to make him see and understand that.  With blood magic. 

[fhs33721]

You yourself have said which is the real problem. Its not the intolerance or mind control or anything like that. Its simple fact that Reaper, all reapers become self-aware sentient being that can do pretty much whatever they want. And they are the strongest force in the galaxy. If they decided to stay and help or just disappear into interstellar space, their power cannot be discounted, for all you know a few reapers might think that they want to bring about a Reaper empire, with the new synth-organic lesser species still weaker and possibly easier to bend to their will. Like Leviathan did but not skulking around an ass-end of the galaxy. 

Even if they are good and proper, and simply try to help, their presence would make them the new strategic weapons. Just making people partially synthetic doesnt make them into angels, there will be war sooner or later. What do reapers do then? What if some of them have allied with different sides? 

 

Reapers were made purposefully too powerful, unbeatable in standard warfare at least not in the long run, their presence in the galaxy would shift the power balance too much, the technology that they have, the millions of years of knowledge. Even the trillions of deaths on their tentacles. It would be like a Mass Effect age civilisation coming to current Earth and trying to deal with the different countries separately. The sudden jump in technology, or at least the sudden ability to jump the 150 years or so would destabilize the world, politically, it would crash the world's economy because pretty much everything would be obsolete and with the rapid manufacturing abilities of omni-tools and other future technology whole countries would go bankrupt simply because their factories and products would no longer be sellable. 

 

Reapers present in the galaxy in any kind of numbers, are a threat to the other civilisations. 

Yes the fact that the Reapers are still around and free to do whatever they want is the most obvious downside of Synthesis. I'd prefer if more people at least hated against this actual downside instead of hating against Synthesis because of their headcanon mind-control theories or "no individuality any more" nonsense, which reveals either a disquieting inability to understand simple vocabulary or a complete disregard for the epilogue.

[themikefest]

best way to make sure the reapers aren't around anymore is to pick destroy

[fhs33721]

best way to make sure the reapers aren't around anymore is to pick destroy

Well, obviously. I don't think anyone is arguing against that.

[General TSAR]

best way to make sure the reapers aren't around anymore is to pick destroy

Yep.

 

Shoot the tube. 

[God]

I think HYR put in good terms how this works. I've said this before, but he put it succinctly in the first sentence about the plot of the Reapers in general

 

 

The Catalyst and its pitch about some broader/reoccurring synthetic problem do not replace the immediate Reaper threat, they re-frame it. The Reapers (and/or Catalyst itself, depending on your POV) are a manifestation of that very thing, standing right in front of you. What the final decision asks is not only how you would like to see this issue addressed in the future, but also to enact your solution of preference on the immediate issue here and now.

 

 

To me, this was far more meaningful than the conclusion of the Rannoch arc. Why? Because most players cannot truly empathize with the quarians on the issue of the geth. Enter the ending. The Reapers are to us what the geth are to the quarians. Through the first two games and most of the third, we are all but taught to hate and fear them. Suddenly it is revealed to us that the Reapers are not all we thought they were. Given  new information, it behooves one to reevaluate their position, but hate and fear are strong forces against free thinking.

 

And this is how I view the game. For me, I would like to see the problem of synthetics addressed via a future synthesis (though that is not the only reason I want to see a singularity event such as synthesis induced). However, for the immediate issue, I'll address it by destroying the Reapers (and the Geth and EDI, as well as temporarily suspending galactic travel).

 

I can't blindly hate the Reapers. I'm too... rational of a person to put myself in such an irrational status. At the end of the day, we're two separate entities with two separate goals. I don't necessarily support control of the Reapers, though I am tempted, and I don't approve of the singularity proposed by the Citadel merging with the Crucible, specifically the methodology. However, I do approve of the overall long-term concept and purpose of the singularity, and I do understand that the Catalyst's problem is quite real. It is a problem that will need to be solved at some point, and to which there are only 4 conceivable solutions:

 

Synthesis (Singularity, Merging of organic and synthetic life, Transsentience, Transhumanism, etc.)

 

Limiting ourselves to a state where sapient synthetic life (such as advanced and sophisticated AI like the Geth and EDI) are not, and will not ever be created.

 

Taking control of the Reapers or creating another meta-stable entity/AI such as the Catalyst to permanently enforce a status quo for organics and synthetics alike.

 

Perpetuating the cycles of the Reapers forever, thus preventing organics from ever creating a sustainable civilization where apocalyptic conflict with synthetics might arise.

 

Ironically, these are, for some intents and purposes, the choices that we are presented with:

 

Synthesis fits #1

Destroy fits #2

Control fits #3

Refuse fits #4

[Valmar]

Yes, they understood each other, and disagreed, fundamentally.  To the point where they seperated from each other.  Knowledge and understanding =/= peaceful coexistence.  For that you need something akin to the Heretic Virus.  ANd that's for a races that shares perspectives. 

 

 

Wow. Is it really that difficult to keep things in context? This is like the up-tenth time you've failed to view it within the context of the argument.

 

Fact: The geth understood one another and were at peace. Fact: When they separated and turned on one another they no longer understood each other. 

 

I never said they had no disagreements. I said they understood each other. You can understand someone without agreeing with them. The geth understood the heretics and did not think they were wrong. Legion's own words clarified that. Neither result was an error. They were still understood and accepted.

 

The context of this was elaborating how when the geth remain together and understand each other, there is peace between them. When they lose that understanding, there is conflict. This was to put emphasis on the fact that with true understanding there comes peace. It all tied back to the context of why synthesis would bring peace due to it bringing a new realm of understanding.

 

For the geth, for as long as they understood each other, there WAS peace. That is the lore. Don't like it? Doesn't change the lore. In the lore for as long as the geth understood each other they were at peace, unity. Yet when they break apart and eventually get in conflict with one another, guess what happens? The geth can no longer understand the heretics. This is not my assumption or theory or wild headcanon. It is the lore.

 

Well as far as I'm concerned, you shouldn't have to go to outside sources to understand what's going on in the freaking game.  And indoctrination doesn't just go away.  Just because the Reapers stopped speaking to kenson doesn't mean she was no longer indoctrinated:  she was.  SHe was simply bereft because she was left alone without her new gods.

 

 

You don't. The indoctrinated and husks still retaining their original selves is partly in the game and in other part all pointed to in the game. The novel only clarifies the husks. We already knew it about indoctrination thanks to Benezia specifically and to lesser degrees TIM and Saren. The bit about the husks was never directly told in the game but there is elements of the lore that support it being the case. What with the harvest being preservation. Aswell as the mind being something preserved in reapers already, and other cases of this being possible in the lore in other areas that I rather not delve into.

 

I didn't say Kenson wasn't indoctrinated. The point was that it wasn't a persistent indoctrination that kept her on that line of thinking. At the end, since the reapers severed the signal, while it was still technically indoctrination it was indoctrination at that point in the same sense us humans can indoctrinate people to believe the earth is flat. There was no longer a present indoctrinating force behind the scenes edging her thoughts in one direction. She wasn't no any longer directly under any influence of theirs, she just still genuinely believed all the wonderful things they told her.

 

This is unlike Saren and TIM who were constantly being influenced by reapers until the very end. Near the end for Kenson, when the reapers terminated the signal and she lost the connection, she still believed in them not because they were forcing her to because she had been genuinely swayed to their side due to the promises of wonder and splendor or whatever crap they whisper in her ear at night. Maybe they cuddled her and told her sweet I love yous, I don't know.

 

All this does is further elaborate my point on how indoctrination has various functions. Not all indoctrinated servants are struggling to control themselves and fighting for control. Not all are completely under the control of the reapers. It varies. It's a very powerful tool with a lot of versatility.

 

Coincidentally I find your argument of not wanting to accept outside LORE into the story a bit amusing considering how many times in the past you've referenced completely unrelated material from outside sources in your attacks on the ending.

 

 

But at any rate, you're assertion seems to be that if only people can have the "truth" beamed into their heads along with the proper context to understand it, everyone would ract to it the same way.  I say that if such was teh case, you are not teaching, you are indoctrinating.  No two people absorb information the same way. 

 

Its less my assertion and more what synthesis puts forth. Also, theres only one way to view the information within the context of synthesis. That is why they all come to the same general conclusion, which doesn't involve war and hate and bitterness. Just like the geth. The geth did view things different from the heretics but they still understood and accepted them. There was still peace. It was only when they separated, grew distant and lost their understanding of one another did conflict arise.

 

With understanding comes peace. Comes acceptance. Comes harmony. Thats the utopia synthesis brings. Kumbaya...

 

But what you are cramming into the person's brain here isn't laws of gravity or aerodynamics, or physics.  Scientific principles that can be demonstrated with repeatable experiments.  You're cramming your own version of philosophy and a very subjective perception of ethics and "perfection" and declaring it the only True Path To Enlightenment. 

 

The reapers are preservation of life. The reapers are alive. The reapers represented salvation from an inevitable extinction and disaster. These are tangible facts in the lore. That is the story. With synthesis we'd now understand that fully and completely, we'd understand how they're alive and why it was necessary. That those harvested before are still with us. What used to be life that we couldn't comprehend or accept is now simply that - life. We're all one now.

 

You make it sound like there should be a philosophy argument of "what is life?" to be had here. There isn't. In synthesis, it IS life. We are all the same. The whole point about the ending is that there won't be any line between organic and synthetic anymore. We're all alive and we understand each other.  To say "well, some might not view reapers as life" or what-have-you would be akin to saying "nothing is living". We're all the same form of life now, we've all been given a new framework. Though the glory of The Shepard. It's a magical experience.

 

 

The situations are very similar in my mind:  In both cases are being used to "correct" someones wrong-thinking in order to end conflict.  To change his thoughts.  Dorian already understood the reasoning behind the arrangement; Tevinter had been practicing this for centuries.  They are attempting to breed a better quality mage:  one that embodies all that Tevinter values.  They are trying to reach, in their perspective, the final evolution of human life.  And Dorian's father was trying to make him see and understand that.  With blood magic. 

 

Mainly due to your misunderstanding and refusal to look at things within the appropriate context. They're not the same. One provides you with understanding and perspective. The other just forces someone to accept a view point. At anyrate I rather not continue talking about Dragon Age. In the same way you don't like Mass Effect lore dragged into a Mass Effect conversation if that lore comes from an official lore novel, I don't like talking about the lore of a completely different type of game in a Mass Effect context. I don't know Dorian, I don't care about Dorian. All I know about the situation is what you have told me, and if that is what the situation is then it isn't comparable to synthesis. The fact that you think it is only shows your own misunderstanding of synthesis or a misrepresentation of what is happening with Dorian.

 

 

best way to make sure the reapers aren't around anymore is to pick destroy

 

Cheers to that. It's also significantly less complicated. Shepard lives, reapers destroyed, victory.

 

Yes the fact that the Reapers are still around and free to do whatever they want is the most obvious downside of Synthesis. I'd prefer if more people at least hated against this actual downside instead of hating against Synthesis because of their headcanon mind-control theories or "no individuality any more" nonsense, which reveals either a disquieting inability to understand simple vocabulary or a complete disregard for the epilogue.

 

Honestly the rational that people should hate on actual problems rather than headcanon ones is something I'd apply to all the endings, not just synthesis. I agree nevertheless.

 

 

Well, obviously. I don't think anyone is arguing against that.

 

IT believers might.

 

 

 

 

All-in-all, I think I'm done here. I've said all I feel like saying about an ending I have so little care for. Though I hate synthesis due to its horrible execution and methodology rather than the actual concept behind it. That I can get behind. As it stands however its just too magical. Tossing someone into a beam of light and magically changing all life in the galaxy, right down to the trees, into synthorganics...  I'm done. I'm just done. I like the general idea (minus the ALL life bit, leave the trees alone) but the execution was cringe worthy and very out-of-touch with the lore.

 

Besides, most of the discussion in this topic is kinda like....

 

        Point

Head

[78stonewobble]

1. I would say that you paint it in a very black and white image. 2. The world is far more gray. 3. Would you feel the same if it was someone forcing Hitler to become a peaceful saint? 4. Would they still be an arrogant, presumptuous non-enlightened person because they forcibly changed someone so fundamentally horrible?

 

 

 

5. So basically, what happens everyday in our lives. If you go to school and learn knowledge and gain world experiences you change. Every day you're a different person. The only difference is that in synthesis you get this knowledge instantly and without consent. If we could download books of knowledge into our brains are we therefore dead the moment someone forces us to learn why torture and discrimination is wrong? If that kills you, then frankly I don't mourn that loss because the person you were sounds like a horrible individual if they actually needed to learn that.

 

6. The personalities are not themselves changed directly.  

 

7. We're just given the knowledge that leads to that change. Say you're from the middle ages. You adamantly believe flight is impossible, couldn't be done. It'd have to be magical powers or the work of supernatural beings for such a thing to exist. Then beam into his head the knowledge and understanding of science and flight. Did you just change his personality to believe flight is possible? No, you just gave him the knowledge and perspective he needed to understand how wrong he was so now he knows it is possible. 

 

8. People change based off of new experiences, perspectives and understanding ALL the time. Having that understanding given to you instantly doesn't mean you're now suddenly dead. It just means the transition is instant rather than having to take years to sink in.

 

9. Goodness knows I wish we could teach people life lessons so quickly.

 

10. Would be a lot less bigotry and hate in the world, I can tell you that much.

 

1. Yes, I have principles. 

2. Agreed.

3. Yes, I would feel the same about someone forcing hitler into something else as I would about forcing someone else to become like hitler, against their will. It is fundamentally wrong. I would however probably have been ok with keeping hitler locked up, so he couldn't hurt anyone else. I very strongly believe in an individuals right to be as they are, think what they want and do what they want, as long as it doesn't hurt others or prohibits others rights to do the same. 

4. Evil is subjective. Personally I think saving women first is discriminating, though there is atleast a rational argument for saving kids first. 

5. Yes, instantaniously and without consent. Sorry... but I think doing things against people against their consent is a bad thing. In all other scenarios you can choose to ignore or dismiss whatever information is given to you. Heck, synthesis ending might just be the matrix overlay of everyone slaughtering eachother and worse. Can't critisize it, can't question it and can't dismiss it. 

6. Offcourse they are... It's brainwashing... 

7. See 5. 

8. Can change and can choose to change... They aren't changed as a conscious and deliberate act. Also ... the person they were before... has seized to exist... that is pretty darn near death afaik. 

9. Hitler probably felt the same way... Hey, you brought him up. 

10. If the individual or entity programs us that way, sure... I'm sure any old fallible human could do it, even though I'm so very keen to trust a possibly defective, possibly dishonest AI, to reprogram everyone in the galaxy... 

 

Sarcasm aside... I'd only leave the reprogramming of "everyone!" ... to someone or something infallible, because if it goes wrong (subjective), as it inevitably will, with someone fallible, we loose everyone... 

[Iakus]

Wow. Is it really that difficult to keep things in context? This is like the up-tenth time you've failed to view it within the context of the argument.

 

Fact: The geth understood one another and were at peace. Fact: When they separated and turned on one another they no longer understood each other. 

 

I never said they had no disagreements. I said they understood each other. You can understand someone without agreeing with them. The geth understood the heretics and did not think they were wrong. Legion's own words clarified that. Neither result was an error. They were still understood and accepted.

 

The context of this was elaborating how when the geth remain together and understand each other, there is peace between them. When they lose that understanding, there is conflict. This was to put emphasis on the fact that with true understanding there comes peace. It all tied back to the context of why synthesis would bring peace due to it bringing a new realm of understanding.

 

For the geth, for as long as they understood each other, there WAS peace. That is the lore. Don't like it? Doesn't change the lore. In the lore for as long as the geth understood each other they were at peace, unity. Yet when they break apart and eventually get in conflict with one another, guess what happens? The geth can no longer understand the heretics. This is not my assumption or theory or wild headcanon. It is the lore.

 

Except you seem to be saying that with understanding will come inevitable agreement with Synthesis.  Because it is "truth"  But that is not necessarily so.  Especially with individuals.  and even with the understanding the Heretics plotted to force the True Geth into thinking their way.

 

 

 

 
I didn't say Kenson wasn't indoctrinated. The point was that it wasn't a persistent indoctrination that kept her on that line of thinking. At the end, since the reapers severed the signal, while it was still technically indoctrination it was indoctrination at that point in the same sense us humans can indoctrinate people to believe the earth is flat. There was no longer a present indoctrinating force behind the scenes edging her thoughts in one direction. She wasn't no any longer directly under any influence of theirs, she just still genuinely believed all the wonderful things they told her.

This is unlike Saren and TIM who were constantly being influenced by reapers until the very end. Near the end for Kenson, when the reapers terminated the signal and she lost the connection, she still believed in them not because they were forcing her to because she had been genuinely swayed to their side due to the promises of wonder and splendor or whatever crap they whisper in her ear at night. Maybe they cuddled her and told her sweet I love yous, I don't know.

All this does is further elaborate my point on how indoctrination has various functions. Not all indoctrinated servants are struggling to control themselves and fighting for control. Not all are completely under the control of the reapers. It varies. It's a very powerful tool with a lot of versatility.

 

So wait, it's not really indoctrination unless they're constantly whispering in your ear?  

 

 

 

Its less my assertion and more what synthesis puts forth. Also, theres only one way to view the information within the context of synthesis. That is why they all come to the same general conclusion, which doesn't involve war and hate and bitterness. Just like the geth. The geth did view things different from the heretics but they still understood and accepted them. There was still peace. It was only when they separated, grew distant and lost their understanding of one another did conflict arise.
With understanding comes peace. Comes acceptance. Comes harmony. Thats the utopia synthesis brings. Kumbaya...

No, there is no one way to view information.  Why else are we arguing the merits of Synthesis?  Even the geth, with all their perspectives, came to different conclusions, to the point where the Heretics separated themselves. 

 

Understanding=/=acceptance=/=peace.  You can understand a position and be violently opposed to it.  You can accept something as true and not be at peace with it.  You can understand something, and strive with all your might to change it.

 

 

 

The reapers are preservation of life. The reapers are alive. The reapers represented salvation from an inevitable extinction and disaster. These are tangible facts in the lore. That is the story. With synthesis we'd now understand that fully and completely, we'd understand how they're alive and why it was necessary. That those harvested before are still with us. What used to be life that we couldn't comprehend or accept is now simply that - life. We're all one now.
You make it sound like there should be a philosophy argument of "what is life?" to be had here. There isn't. In synthesis, it IS life. We are all the same. The whole point about the ending is that there won't be any line between organic and synthetic anymore. We're all alive and we understand each other.  To say "well, some might not view reapers as life" or what-have-you would be akin to saying "nothing is living". We're all the same form of life now, we've all been given a new framework. Though the glory of The Shepard. It's a magical experience.
 

No, the Reapers are not the preservation of life.  They are Reapers.  They kill.  At best, they preserve the knowledge of what they kill.

 

No, the Reapers do not represent salvation.  Not to everyone at least, and the disaster is not inevitable.  Their assertions are never proven.  These are not tangible facts.  They are hearsay, secondhand information at best.  Forcing people to "understand" that as "truth" is, to me, horrific.  "You're not thinking right.  Here, let me tune you up"

 

And yes, there is an argument as to "what is life?"  Legion even says it in ME2: "We are created life.  We are a philosophical question".  ANd to me, at least, It is all life. Organic life.  Synthetic life.  It's all life.  THe understanding and acceptance parts is something we have to work out on our own.  THere are no shortcuts to that.  Though given certain choices in the game, it should be possible to take those first few steps in certain cases, such as Tuchanka and Rannoch.  

 

"We're all the same now thanks to The Shepard" is not a glorious experience.  It's horrific.  As The Incredibles puts it:  WHen everybody is special, nobody is special.

[Valmar]

1. Yes, I have principles. 

2. Agreed.

3. Yes, I would feel the same about someone forcing hitler into something else as I would about forcing someone else to become like hitler, against their will. It is fundamentally wrong. I would however probably have been ok with keeping hitler locked up, so he couldn't hurt anyone else. I very strongly believe in an individuals right to be as they are, think what they want and do what they want, as long as it doesn't hurt others or prohibits others rights to do the same. 

4. Evil is subjective. Personally I think saving women first is discriminating, though there is atleast a rational argument for saving kids first. 

5. Yes, instantaniously and without consent. Sorry... but I think doing things against people against their consent is a bad thing. In all other scenarios you can choose to ignore or dismiss whatever information is given to you. Heck, synthesis ending might just be the matrix overlay of everyone slaughtering eachother and worse. Can't critisize it, can't question it and can't dismiss it. 

6. Offcourse they are... It's brainwashing... 

7. See 5. 

8. Can change and can choose to change... They aren't changed as a conscious and deliberate act. Also ... the person they were before... has seized to exist... that is pretty darn near death afaik. 

9. Hitler probably felt the same way... Hey, you brought him up. 

10. If the individual or entity programs us that way, sure... I'm sure any old fallible human could do it, even though I'm so very keen to trust a possibly defective, possibly dishonest AI, to reprogram everyone in the galaxy... 

 

Since I never did reply to you I feel it would be rude not to give it a go at least once, though I'm still don't fancy further discussing synthesis myself.

 

1. Good for you. Long as you remember that its just your opinion and not objective fact to be forced on all (which would be ironic here) then we're good.

 

2. Lovely.

 

3. Sure, right to be as they are, yadda yadda. What about the "long as they dont hurt others" bit? Don't think people like Hitler cross that line? Terrifying thought. I never said that people shouldn't be who they are. That doesn't mean I think its within their right to remain how they are if they're despicable monsters that take rights and lives away from others. You want to talk about fundamentally wrong? Hitler was fundamentally wrong. I suppose the person who decides to take his precious right to be a monster away from him is the real demon in all this though. I think I'd rather side with the demons on this one. Though that's just me.

 

4. Evil is subjective yet Hitler having the right to be Hitler is fundamentally right? Lovely. I don't disagree with there being subjective 'evils' but I do find this line of reasoning to incompatible with your other claims.

 

5. Did I ever say it was right to change all life without their consent? I only argued that there is no brainwashing and that everyone isn't dead. You're the one who said everyone was dead because now they have more knowledge. Which is to same as to say that someone who went through school is dead because now he has more understanding. The person he was is dead and gone, so therefore the school system basically killed him. That's what you essentially said. You said they were all dead because they had understanding forced upon them.

 

What does the information being forced on them have to do with them still being alive? You're forced to go to school as a kid. Are you dead because of it? We're a society of zombies then. So whats so special about synthesis that makes it kill everyone? Because the knowledge is instant instead of gradually imparted onto us over years? So as long as they span it out over a decade or so we can still be alive, right?

 

You don't kill kids by teaching them subjects. If you could download books directly into your mind to instantly get knowledge you are not killing yourself just because someone whacked you in the head with the knowledge of how to change a tire. Getting understanding, even if its forced on you an is done instantly, does not equate murder. I find any claim to the contrary to be ludicrous.

 

Beyond that, however, its also just pure headcanon. EDI didn't sound dead to me. Infact, to hear her tell it, shes alive. Again.

 

6. Incorrect. Headcanon, nothing more.

 

7. See 5.

 

8. See 5. So bizarre.

 

9. SIEG HEIL!

 

10. That has nothing to do with it. Synthesis itself isn't whats keeping us from bigots and hateful. Is it forcing you right now, or are you hateful bigot? No? Why is that? Because you think its wrong? Why is that? Were you taught that? Did you come to that conclusion yourself? Understanding leads to peace. I may be skeptical of this being true in the real world, because of how horrible people are, but thats what it is in synthesis. It's a utopia. It's also hardly the first of its kind to come along with this "understanding, acceptance, peace" concept. The only thing special about it is that it smacks a coat of green on everything.

 

Its the understanding that makes us cooperate and keep the peace. That is what comes from synthesis.

 

Sarcasm aside... I'd only leave the reprogramming of "everyone!" ... to someone or something infallible, because if it goes wrong (subjective), as it inevitably will, with someone fallible, we loose everyone... 

 

Since no such person exists all will go wrong then. It just doesn't in the ending. We see glimpses of the future and it looks to be going pretty swell. Infact synthesis provides the most uplifting ending for the cycle than all the others. We'll overcome time itself.

 

Though if we're talking about inevitability, the catalyst says synthesis is inevitable. So to combine your two proposed inevitabilities its inevitable that we lose everyone.

 

Or you could alternatively not headcanon stuff and just accept the ending as it is, which gives us a long and glorious future. I mean, really,  isn't the game bleak enough without all this headcanon of "oh but everyone is dead and everyones going to die and dead dead dead". You know even in the destory ending everyone is going to be dead in a few years anyway. Everyone you know and love will die. With time, the planets will die too. The suns will blow up. The universe might get swallowed up by dark energy. 

 

I could headcanon a lot of things to make the ending bad. Or I could stop thinking so needless deep and accept the ending for what it is. I'm going to go with the latter.

 

 

 

@Iakus
 

At this point I'm beginning to think you're taking me out of context just to troll with me. I wont bother going into a detailed response. Your entire post was formed of two halves. One half being taken out of context or simply lacking context. The other half being factually lore-INACCURATE to such degrees it makes me wonder why hate the ending so vehemently since it doesn't ignore the lore anymore than you do.

[von uber]

Saving women makes sense from a continuation of species point. One man can produce many children with multiple women, the same is obviously not as true in reverse.

Anyway.

Synthesis is still bollocks no matter which way you argue it.

[Vazgen]

Saving women makes sense from a continuation of species point. One man can produce many children with multiple women, the same is obviously not as true in reverse.

Anyway.

Synthesis is still bollocks no matter which way you argue it.

Does it work the same way with the krogan?

[78stonewobble]

Since I never did reply to you I feel it would be rude not to give it a go at least once, though I'm still don't fancy further discussing synthesis myself.

 

1. Good for you. Long as you remember that its just your opinion and not objective fact to be forced on all (which would be ironic here) then we're good.

 

2. Lovely.

 

3. Sure, right to be as they are, yadda yadda. What about the "long as they dont hurt others" bit? Don't think people like Hitler cross that line? Terrifying thought. I never said that people shouldn't be who they are. That doesn't mean I think its within their right to remain how they are if they're despicable monsters that take rights and lives away from others. You want to talk about fundamentally wrong? Hitler was fundamentally wrong. I suppose the person who decides to take his precious right to be a monster away from him is the real demon in all this though. I think I'd rather side with the demons on this one. Though that's just me.

 

4. Evil is subjective yet Hitler having the right to be Hitler is fundamentally right? Lovely. I don't disagree with there being subjective 'evils' but I do find this line of reasoning to incompatible with your other claims.

 

5. Did I ever say it was right to change all life without their consent? I only argued that there is no brainwashing and that everyone isn't dead. You're the one who said everyone was dead because now they have more knowledge. Which is to same as to say that someone who went through school is dead because now he has more understanding. The person he was is dead and gone, so therefore the school system basically killed him. That's what you essentially said. You said they were all dead because they had understanding forced upon them.

 

What does the information being forced on them have to do with them still being alive? You're forced to go to school as a kid. Are you dead because of it? We're a society of zombies then. So whats so special about synthesis that makes it kill everyone? Because the knowledge is instant instead of gradually imparted onto us over years? So as long as they span it out over a decade or so we can still be alive, right?

 

You don't kill kids by teaching them subjects. If you could download books directly into your mind to instantly get knowledge you are not killing yourself just because someone whacked you in the head with the knowledge of how to change a tire. Getting understanding, even if its forced on you an is done instantly, does not equate murder. I find any claim to the contrary to be ludicrous.

 

Beyond that, however, its also just pure headcanon. EDI didn't sound dead to me. Infact, to hear her tell it, shes alive. Again.

 

6. Incorrect. Headcanon, nothing more.

 

7. See 5.

 

8. See 5. So bizarre.

 

9. SIEG HEIL!

 

10. That has nothing to do with it. Synthesis itself isn't whats keeping us from bigots and hateful. Is it forcing you right now, or are you hateful bigot? No? Why is that? Because you think its wrong? Why is that? Were you taught that? Did you come to that conclusion yourself? Understanding leads to peace. I may be skeptical of this being true in the real world, because of how horrible people are, but thats what it is in synthesis. It's a utopia. It's also hardly the first of its kind to come along with this "understanding, acceptance, peace" concept. The only thing special about it is that it smacks a coat of green on everything.

 

Its the understanding that makes us cooperate and keep the peace. That is what comes from synthesis.

 

 

11. Since no such person exists all will go wrong then. It just doesn't in the ending. We see glimpses of the future and it looks to be going pretty swell. Infact synthesis provides the most uplifting ending for the cycle than all the others. We'll overcome time itself.

 

Though if we're talking about inevitability, the catalyst says synthesis is inevitable. So to combine your two proposed inevitabilities its inevitable that we lose everyone.

 

12. Or you could alternatively not headcanon stuff and just accept the ending as it is, which gives us a long and glorious future. I mean, really,  isn't the game bleak enough without all this headcanon of "oh but everyone is dead and everyones going to die and dead dead dead". You know even in the destory ending everyone is going to be dead in a few years anyway. Everyone you know and love will die. With time, the planets will die too. The suns will blow up. The universe might get swallowed up by dark energy. 

 

I could headcanon a lot of things to make the ending bad. Or I could stop thinking so needless deep and accept the ending for what it is. I'm going to go with the latter.

 

 

1. Yes and it would be exactly like that if I snapped my fingers and suddenly had everyone thinking like me. One way or the other. 

 

3. You very conveniently ignore, where I explicitly state, that a person like hitler, should be prevented from hurting others. I'm saying that a person like that is entitled to his/her/it's personal beliefs, thougts and to live their life as they want. As long as it doesn't prevent others from living the life they want and their personal beliefs and thoughts. Also, who again decides on what is the "correct truth" and gets to force people to believe the same way? See below. 

 

4. I'm pretty sure hitler or persons like him (evuhlz persons) thought they were doing the right thing. They absolutely had truth on their side and felt "fundamentally right". Hmm, fundamentally right... where have I heard that before? Yes, that absolutism was your argument for making other people see the world like you do. 

 

5. Yes, I'm saying that instantaniously and fundamentally mentally and thus physically alterring a person is like death of the original individual, no matter whether it's consentual or not. As opposed to the original "organism" slowly and gradually changing itself. And I stand by that oppinion. 

 

Consider the "teleporter dilemma" ... 

 

6. And the north korean educational system only informs people... And knowledge is knowledge and is all good right? 

 

10. No, reason and logic does that. You know, how I know synthesis is fundamentally wrong? 

 

There are NO nudists in the ending. 

 

There is nothing inherently wrong with the naked body of any species and with such a fundamental and chilled approach, surely finally nudists could just be themselves in any situation, because these now enlightened people's of the galaxy wouldn't mind it at all and completely understand. 

 

There are no nudists... Apparently it wasnt allowed or they were just changed to fit the politically correct, one ultimate truth, fundamentally right, synthesis amalgam of oppinions. 

 

One can only hope it went away with lady gaga fans too... 

 

11. And again... The catalyst makes no logical sense and is either defective or deceitfull. Sure, let's have that guy do brain surgery on everyone... And I don't think we need or should do brain surgery on everyone. 

 

12. And again... it's not headcannon, it's a logical extrapolation of the ingame reality. Certainly it's no more headcannon than "it's not brain washing, it's just knowledge", with out ANY detailed information on how synthesis works and what it changes in whose brain. 

[TMA LIVE]

So wait, it's not really indoctrination unless they're constantly whispering in your ear?  

 

Just wondering. Why would the Reapers let Shepard indoctrinate them?

 

Because Synthesis is not the Reapers using the energy. It's Shepard's changing the energy, and it being released, changing everyone, including the Reapers. So why would the Reapers allow Shepard to indoctrinate them?

[Iakus]

Just wondering. Why would the Reapers let Shepard indoctrinate them?

 

Because Synthesis is not the Reapers using the energy. It's Shepard's changing the energy, and it being released, changing everyone, including the Reapers. So why would the Reapers allow Shepard to indoctrinate them?

I cannot answer that, as I do not know.

 

I don't even know why the Catalyst didn't just let Shepard bleed out and let the harvest continue unopposed.

 

And of course, how does Shepard change the energy?  Why Shepard specifically, and not another person?  And how does the energy change every human, asari, geth, varren, tree, husk, and blade of grass both physically and mentally?  What is "organic energy", or the "essence of a species" ?  How is there universal understanding without coersion when there are untold billions of unique minds out there?

[TMA LIVE]

I cannot answer that, as I do not know.

 

I don't even know why the Catalyst didn't just let Shepard bleed out and let the harvest continue unopposed.

 

And of course, how does Shepard change the energy?  Why Shepard specifically, and not another person?  And how does the energy change every human, asari, geth, varren, tree, husk, and blade of grass both physically and mentally?  What is "organic energy", or the "essence of a species" ?  How is there universal understanding without coersion when there are untold billions of unique minds out there?

 

Mentally part, probably the same way the energy reprograms the Reapers in the control ending. Data travels through electricity in real life after all. Shepard having synthetics to make up for his brain dead brain probably plays a part in "Synthetics will have a better understanding of Organics".

 

We do know why it wanted a new solution. It says because Shepard's there, and the changes he made, his solution won't work anymore. And if you picked refuse, you know the real reason why in the next cycle.

 

If you mean why Shepard specifically, and why not offer someone else? Probably because the Catalyst simply chose Shepard. Simple as that. And if Shepard refused, it's him choosing for everyone. If Shepard offered the Catalyst to get someone else to Control the Reapers or jump into the beam, the Catatyst might've simply refused, because you're the one it chose for the job. You're the only one it wants for the job. And it doesn't want to stall. Maybe because it doesn't want you to have the upper hand to pull. Or maybe it thinks the Reapers might object. In a lot of the dialogue, the Catalyst keeps saying "Not enough time". As if it either can't stop the Reapers from destroying the Crucible, or doesn't want to. Maybe it's worried the Reapers might rebel? We know the Reapers are independent. The one on Rannoch says "Harbinger speaks of you". Maybe Harb and crew might not like being changed, controlled, or destroyed if the Catalyst put them in the know on it?

[Iakus]

Mentally part, probably the same way the energy reprograms the Reapers in the control ending. Data travels through electricity in real life after all. Shepard having synthetics to make up for his brain dead brain probably plays a part in "Synthetics will have a better understanding of Organics".

But the universal peace and understanding through knowledge?  Across all species, organic and synthetic?  you can't even get all humans to agree with something.  How does one get a dozen or more radically different races to do so?

 

And Shepard's brain is still wholly organic, according to EDI.  his/her brain was (lol!) preserved by the helmet.

[TMA LIVE]

But the universal peace and understanding through knowledge?  Across all species, organic and synthetic?  you can't even get all humans to agree with something.  How does one get a dozen or more radically different races to do so?

 

And Shepard's brain is still wholly organic, according to EDI.  his/her brain was (lol!) preserved by the helmet.

 

Yeah, but it was also brain dead. That had to be fixed somehow. Shepard still questions if he's a VI who thinks he's Shepard.

 

Knowledge part, I don't think everyone gets it the second the beam hits them. When the EDI says we've been given Knowledge, I think she means the Reapers are just giving use a Library to read after the fact.

 

Peace wise, I think it's no different then what happens in the Control ending. Reapers stop attacking. No one knows why. Later they learn the Reapers aren't trying to kill them and instead trying to help them rebuild. They're somehow told this and allow it to happen.

 

Synthesis just adds "Also, you've been changed too. And you might not know why till later".

 

It's only speculation that we only know the change through psychic connection somehow because of the synthesis, based on how Joker and EDI act in synthesis compared to how they act in the control ending. Like there's another understanding of the situation and each other that didn't exist before, like how they're less fearful of the situation, and act more in love.