372 réponses à ce sujet

[Iakus]

But it's not just peace between the galaxy and the Reapers, it's some sort of magical solution to end conflict between organics and synthetics in general (by essentially making everyone into hybrids) through the power of Evolutionary Perfection and Understanding.

[TMA LIVE]

But it's not just peace between the galaxy and the Reapers, it's some sort of magical solution to end conflict between organics and synthetics in general (by essentially making everyone into hybrids) through the power of Evolutionary Perfection and Understanding.

 

That's what the Catalyst believes. If it happens overtime, that doesn't mean it was magic if it's an ongoing process.

 

If you're talking about evolution, you can consider evolving past aggression, greed, and death "because" of the knowledge the Reapers gave us, and the fact that synthesis evolves us to be better then we were before (Krogan being cured of the Genophage and also becoming more builders then warriors being an example), or we're now upgrading ourselves faster because of it, then yeah, there might be less reasons for war if we don't have desires to make war, because the reasons wars happen have been solved.

[Iakus]

Except this isn't presented as an ongoing process.  It's said to be "the final evolution of life" and it will end the conflict. because suddenly everyone understands each other.  As shown in the ending slides and EDI's monologue.

 

And I do not believe that knowledge makes us "better", nor does evolution.  That's probably why Valanar and I seemed to be talking past each other.   Knowledge doesn't make us inherently more peaceful.  Five thousand years of history has pretty clearly demonstrated that.

 

These upgrades would have to change the way people think on a fundamental level.  That, to me, makes Syntheis both ridiculous and chilling.

[God]

Except this isn't presented as an ongoing process.  It's said to be "the final evolution of life" and it will end the conflict. because suddenly everyone understands each other.  As shown in the ending slides and EDI's monologue.

 

And I do not believe that knowledge makes us "better", nor does evolution.  That's probably why Valanar and I seemed to be talking past each other.   Knowledge doesn't make us inherently more peaceful.  Five thousand years of history has pretty clearly demonstrated that.

 

These upgrades would have to change the way people think on a fundamental level.  That, to me, makes Syntheis both ridiculous and chilling.

 

I don't think that's the implication of Synthesis at all.

 

Synthesis is no guarantee for peace. The Catalyst isn't implying that it is. Synthesis does give more knowledge (which does reduce conflict). As well, one of the intents of Synthesis is to level the playing field. We know longer need to fear being overtaken by synthetic organisms, which would wipe us out in a hypothetical conflict.

 

And I think that's a good thing. Too many people are fools who squander their knowledge and capability to learn on their own selfish desires and interests. Time to clean house.

[von uber]

Does it work the same way with the krogan?

 

Krogan reproduction is seriously borked.

[TMA LIVE]

Except this isn't presented as an ongoing process.  It's said to be "the final evolution of life" and it will end the conflict. because suddenly everyone understands each other.  As shown in the ending slides and EDI's monologue.

 

And I do not believe that knowledge makes us "better", nor does evolution.  That's probably why Valanar and I seemed to be talking past each other.   Knowledge doesn't make us inherently more peaceful.  Five thousand years of history has pretty clearly demonstrated that.

 

These upgrades would have to change the way people think on a fundamental level.  That, to me, makes Syntheis both ridiculous and chilling.

 

What are you talking about? During the EC conference, they pointed out how some of the special Synthesis images were meant to be interpreted as many years into the future. As in the future progress.

 

Final evolution is simply use being augmented. Which technically is the final step. We get to a point where the only way to improve ourselves is to add extra parts. Doesn't mean we won't be progressing on the tech side of things. It doesn't mean whatever deceases we had might never be cured. It doesn't mean we won't be doing any more changes to ourselves.

 

Everyone also understands each other in the Control and Destroy ending slides? Because they're the same slides.

 

But even if you're right, I don't think it's the brainwashing thing you believe. The best example I can give is that asari who works for the Rachni in ME2. You can believe they brainwashed her into being their slave, or you can believe once they communicated with her, she understood them, and willingly decided to help them. I see it as the help, and not the brainwash.

[Valmar]

 

Doesn't mean we won't be progressing on the tech side of things.

 

The dialogue in the ending actually even proves that we WILL be making progress and not sitting static. We will reclaim our glory and surpass it. We have the knowledge of all the cycles that came before us. We will conquer the stars. One day we will even transcend mortality itself.

[themikefest]

What glory did we lose that we have to reclaim?

[Valmar]

What glory did we lose that we have to reclaim?

 

That line was spoken during the Krogan slide. So.... yeah. Appropriate context if there ever was one.

[themikefest]

That line was spoken during the Krogan slide. So.... yeah. Appropriate context if there ever was one.

The line that is spoken during that slide is to recover the greatness that was lost

 

A couple slides later,  the line that is spoken is, we will reclaim our worlds ... and the satars

[Valmar]

The line that is spoken during that slide is to recover the greatness that was lost

 

Yeah but doesn't it come in the slide right after that?

To recover the greatness that was lost... and surpass it?

 

It was within the context of the krogan slide since we see the krogan blueprinting a design and then building the "surpassed" structure. Or am I remembering wrong?

[themikefest]

http://youtu.be/m6u8QIqLSmU?t=8m10s

[Valmar]

So I was right. It was all said within the context of the krogan slides.

 

Edit:

 

I think I finally understand what you're getting at here. I think. Are you actually nictpicking semantics? Because I originally said "reclaim" instead of "recover"?

 

Is there something else I'm missing here? Or is that really what you wanted to clarify? If so, wow, man. Wow.

[dreamgazer]

It's a reference to the ancient Krogan society visible in the Tuchanka ruins and communicated by Eve, and to a lesser extent the quarians thriving on Rannoch.

[Iakus]

What are you talking about? During the EC conference, they pointed out how some of the special Synthesis images were meant to be interpreted as many years into the future. As in the future progress.

 

Final evolution is simply use being augmented. Which technically is the final step. We get to a point where the only way to improve ourselves is to add extra parts. Doesn't mean we won't be progressing on the tech side of things. It doesn't mean whatever deceases we had might never be cured. It doesn't mean we won't be doing any more changes to ourselves.

 

Everyone also understands each other in the Control and Destroy ending slides? Because they're the same slides.

 

But even if you're right, I don't think it's the brainwashing thing you believe. The best example I can give is that asari who works for the Rachni in ME2. You can believe they brainwashed her into being their slave, or you can believe once they communicated with her, she understood them, and willingly decided to help them. I see it as the help, and not the brainwash.

All the ending slides are said to be progressing from the immediate aftermath of the war and eventually showing years and decades later, yes.  But I do not recall anything unique to Synthesis. 

 

Self-directed evolution is still evolution.  The geth have evolved over the centuries, for example.  But the Catalyst was quite clear that Synthesis is the final evolution.

 

In destroy, Hackett expresses hope that the alliance formed against the Reapers will hold, and they will be able to build something from that.  But it's clearly not a guarantee.  Control has everyone under Big Brother Shepard's guns, ensuring everyone plays nice. 

[Valmar]

All the ending slides are said to be progressing from the immediate aftermath of the war and eventually showing years and decades later, yes.  But I do not recall anything unique to Synthesis. 

 

Actually the stuff Mike and I were going over point out those unique differences. Check out the link Mike provided then compare the same scene to Destroy High EMS. They do include extra slides showing the synthesis ending leading to more progression.

 

Beyond that the synthesis ending is littered with signs that we will progress further and that it isn't static. We continue to advance.

"As the line between synthetic and organic disappears, we may transcend mortality itself...  to reach a level of existence I cannot even imagine."

Still evolving too, apparently. Which is always nice.

[themikefest]

So I was right. It was all said within the context of the krogan slides.

 

Edit:

 

I think I finally understand what you're getting at here. I think. Are you actually nictpicking semantics? Because I originally said "reclaim" instead of "recover"?

 

Is there something else I'm missing here? Or is that really what you wanted to clarify? If so, wow, man. Wow.

You  said reclaim our glory when the word glory or reclaim isn't mentioned in that line. The word reclaim is only used when  we will reclaim our worlds is mentioned

[Valmar]

Right. Semantics, got it. Tomato, tomato. Wow. Lol. That was a very productive use of our times.

[sH0tgUn jUliA]

Your family would still be alive. The paste is to preserve the individual, so they'd be alive in some form. Think of the Virtual Aliens. The husks still retain their original identity according to the lore so with the reaper indoctrination removed they could theoretically return back, mentally speaking.

 

They DON'T want to kill us, and it is not a tangible fact that they have murdered trillions. Perspective is key, context is crucial. They are only dead by your limited understanding of life and the process of the harvest. It is impossible for man to fly, it is impossible to make tons of metal soar through the sky. Until our understand changed, this was believed to all be fact. It is impossible for man to go to the moon. Until we do.

 

In the lore of Mass Effect, which is fictional scifi btw so don't be too hurt if it doesn't suit real-life standards you have, the harvest is not perceived as death by the reapers. They preserve, they help us ascend. Each reaper is a billion organic minds conjoined together. They embody the collective consciousness of civilizations. Just like the Thorian can get the collective knowledge of protheans from eating their bodies. Just as the rachni pass their memories down genetically. Just as protheans store memories, knowledge and experience on hardware. Just as the Virtual Aliens essentially transfer their very being, their souls, into servers and even other's bodies like vessels. This is all presented to us in the Mass Effect universe. How you feel about it in real life is irrelevant, its all true in the fictional lore.

 

My point of mentioning Buddha is that if you WERE enlightening you wouldn't want revenge. Believe it or not, there are people who believe in peace and understanding and no matter how wronged they may be by others they never wish anything bad on them. It's hard to imagine it but these people do exist. Unlike the rest of the things I mentioned this ISN'T limited to the fictional universe, its a very real thing that we can find examples of in the real world. Just because you don't see yourself being capable of it doesn't mean its impossible for such a state of being to be possible, as evidence clearly shows. Personally I envy those who are capable of having such a tranquil state of mind. 

 

No. The Virtual Aliens uploaded their minds into a supercomputer. Their individual minds became sentient programs within the computer matrix.

 

The difference between the Virtual Aliens and the Reapers are these questions: Are blackberry preserves alive? Is hamburger a living animal? Can hamburger think? How about ground up calf brains? No? I didn't think so.

[Valmar]

No. The Virtual Aliens uploaded their minds into a supercomputer. Their individual minds became sentient programs within the computer matrix.

 

 

They can also upload themselves into organic bodies. You can theoretically swap bodies with someone this way. If it was as you claim it would not work the way it does. It would just make a copy. It does not. You consciousness leaves your body and goes into the server where it is then free to go into other bodies, if you so desire. That's lore. Just because it doesn't sit snug and comfy with your interpretation of life in reality doesn't change that. This is science fiction.

 

Coincidentally it is precisely this type of thinking that proves the need for synthesis for there to be peace between synthetic and organics. Too many are too unwilling to accept that the definition of life extends beyond just themselves.

[78stonewobble]

I don't think that's the implication of Synthesis at all.

 

Synthesis is no guarantee for peace. The Catalyst isn't implying that it is. Synthesis does give more knowledge (which does reduce conflict). As well, one of the intents of Synthesis is to level the playing field. We know longer need to fear being overtaken by synthetic organisms, which would wipe us out in a hypothetical conflict.

 

And I think that's a good thing. Too many people are fools who squander their knowledge and capability to learn on their own selfish desires and interests. Time to clean house.

 

Actually we'd still have to fear being overtaken by synthetic organisms. From all the parts of the milkyway not greenified and all other galaxies within reach. Either through technological superiority, unless reapers are the penultimate technological level or through sheer numbers, if they can still gobble up a significant portion of the milkyway, which they presumably can, or they just have all the ressources available of one or more other galaxies. 

 

Either way, we're still screwed. Reapers, ai and organics alike. 

[fhs33721]

Actually we'd still have to fear being overtaken by synthetic organisms. From all the parts of the milkyway not greenified and all other galaxies within reach. Either through technological superiority, unless reapers are the penultimate technological level or through sheer numbers, if they can still gobble up a significant portion of the milkyway, which they presumably can, or they just have all the ressources available of one or more other galaxies. 

 

Either way, we're still screwed. Reapers, ai and organics alike. 

And what exactly are your trying to argue with this? Eventually the universe will collapse and end all life permanently anyways. Death is the ultimate fate of all living things. That doesn't mean that it should not be avoided as long as possible.

Just because  one day other Synthetics from different galaxies might decide to kill everything in the ME galaxy doesn't mean we should just say "F*ck it. Let's just let the synthetics in this galaxy kill all the organics right away becaue billions of years in the future it might potentially happen anyways."

[in it for the lolz]

Jar Jar Hudson wanted to rip off the ending to Deus Ex (the first one), so we got some dumb a** ending that did not fit in Mass Effect's story line.

 

So it's not really space magic.

[StarcloudSWG]

It is definitely not just 'understanding.' You can understand points of view that you disagree with, even ones that you disagree with violently. Understanding alone does not prevent conflict.

 

What prevents conflict is mind control. In the very first opening seconds of the Synthesis ending, you can see that a husk is about to kill a soldier, when suddenly both sides stop fighting. Completely.

 

That's not 'understanding', that's mind control. Because it's deeply unnatural for a human being fighting for his life and the life of his teammate, to stop shooting and get calm.

[Valmar]

It is definitely not just 'understanding.' You can understand points of view that you disagree with, even ones that you disagree with violently. Understanding alone does not prevent conflict.

 

You act as if there is an absolute answer to that. How do you know with such absolute certainity that understanding doesn't prevent conflict? If there was conflict its possible they only THOUGHT they understood but didn't really. No one knows what happens when you truly understand. No one has true understanding of others. The most we can do is have true understanding of ourselves and even that is a difficult achievement that some spend their entire lives trying to achieve.

 

In the Mass Effect universe true understanding brings peace. As proved by the evidence of the lore. You may not agree with it personally on a realistic level but that doesn't change the lore any. Its a fictional universe, why do you expect it to adhere to your preconceive notions of what is true and what isn't true, especially when its about something as highly subjective at this?

 

How I wish personal philological issues were the only thing bad about the synthesis ending.

 

What prevents conflict is mind control. In the very first opening seconds of the Synthesis ending, you can see that a husk is about to kill a soldier, when suddenly both sides stop fighting. Completely.

 

That's not 'understanding', that's mind control. Because it's deeply unnatural for a human being fighting for his life and the life of his teammate, to stop shooting and get calm.

 

This is headcanon. Headcanon that is later disproved by the further scenes in synthesis. You're headcanoning your desired implication into this scene because it fits your preconceived views of what brings peace.

 

Why waste time complaining about such personal issues that arise only from headcanon? Doesn't synthesis have enough /real/ problems in your eyes?