I tend to favour deconstructinism as a mode of analysis for a lot of traditionally venerated pursuits but other than the superficially similar critical approach I don't have any actual intellectual connection with Derridean thought or philosophy.
Deconstructionism is the church of Derrida, whose obscurantism is the cultish sepulcher--where, the humanities are now buried.
Because books and movies are passive entertainemnt and it is different. Because there are a million books out there and I can find ones that resonate on a philosophical level but there are few developers in gaming so if I don't agree with the agenda I'm out of luck.
Games can be more but the problem I'm seeing lately in my opinion is game developers start more with their agenda or belief and then try to build a game around that rather than build a game then dress it up with philosophy.
Oof, that's some highfalutin' language you've got there. 
Because books and movies are passive entertainemnt and it is different. Because there are a million books out there and I can find ones that resonate on a philosophical level but there are few developers in gaming so if I don't agree with the agenda I'm out of luck.
Games can be more but the problem I'm seeing lately in my opinion is game developers start more with their agenda or belief and then try to build a game around that rather than build a game then dress it up with philosophy.
No one is saying that a game has to beat you over the head with whatever idea it's examining. There has to be a balance, just like there is ideally a balance between a movie or book's philosophy and its enjoyability. I would go so far as to argue that a subtle hand would tend to due such a hypothetical game more justice. It seems like you and I could agree on that.
Offended, you don't have what it takes to do that. That would involve something close to the sensibility that you have already denounced.
Is that you Vivienne?
Is that you Vivienne?
No, but I want the Hennin... 
I think for the last few gaming generations, video games have been taking over the ethical role that Novels used to fill. Novels have always been great for ethical thought experiments e.g. Nabokov's Lolita etc. My problem with this, is that video games do not have the same artistry nor do they cover the wide range of subjects that novels can. Video games are limited to very particular tropes, and pander greatly to a status quo demographic. I doubt that we will see a Joyceian video game, or a Flaubert type video game anytime soon.
you haven't played many games, have you?
the only difference between games and novels is that novels are immutable, computer games are interactive by definition, or they should be if they are to be considered as software (intelligent, reactive). the artistry here shouldn't be constrained by static writing, this kind of mindset limits the idea of games and makes them just another one-dimensional creation. gamer isn't just passive observer like reader in novels but an actor, taking part and being vital to the narrative. the artistry in games is more complex than in other media. game creators have much more powerful tools of expression, more ways to affect the recipient. sad part is: they rarely are aware of that, spending more time polishing traditional components of art.
you haven't played many games, have you?
the only difference between games and novels is that novels are immutable, computer games are interactive by definition, or they should be if they are to be considered as software (intelligent, reactive). the artistry here shouldn't be constrained by static writing, this kind of mindset limits the idea of games and makes them just another one-dimensional creation. gamer isn't just passive observer like reader in novels but an actor, taking part and being vital to the narrative. the artistry in games is more complex than in other media. game creators have much more powerful tools of expression, more ways to affect the recipient. sad part is: they rarely are aware of that, spending more time polishing traditional components of art.
So you think there is going to be a Lolita video game, or what about Finnegans Wake? How well do you think they will transpose. I'd say, not at all.
So you think there is going to be a Lolita video game, or what about Finnegans Wake? How well do you think they will transpose. I'd say, not at all.
no, those are books. i think it depends on what you think is essence of those creations. if you think about the language - yup it's hard to perform linguistic experiments if verbs are shown, not written. unless you count MUDs... then you can have even that (bonus: an interactive linguistic experiment, imagine how grand would it be if it happened just in front of your eyes, in real time)
no, those are books. i think it depends on what you think is essence of those creations. if you think about the language - yup it's hard to perform linguistic experiments if verbs are shown, not written. unless you count MUDs... then you can have even that.
Yes they are books, and you obviously missed what I was talking about.
Yes they are books, and you obviously missed what I was talking about.
impression is mutual :3
impression is mutual :3
I was specifically comparing video games and novels, I said "My problem with this, is that video games do not have (I will add, cannot have) the same artistry nor do they cover the wide range of subjects that novels can."
As such, I do not want video games taking the ethical place of novels for any generation, as video games cannot properly fill that place like a novel can.
Lolita will not transpose to a video game (it did not transfer well to film, let alone a medium that ups the ante for interaction) because of the subject matter, and Finnegan's Wake will not either, because it is a book about language--which is meant to be read. So unless you are going to address video games taking the place of novels, go peddle your pencils to someone else.
I was specifically comparing video games and novels, I said "My problem with this, is that video games do not have (I will add, cannot have) the same artistry nor do they cover the wide range of subjects that novels can."
As such, I do not want video games taking the ethical place of novels for any generation, as video games cannot properly fill that place like a novel can.
Lolita will not transpose to a video game (it did not transfer well to film, let alone a medium that ups the ante for interaction) because of the subject matter, and Finnegan's Wake will not either, because it is a book about language--which is meant to be read. So unless you are going to address video games taking the place of novels, go peddle your pencils to someone else.
you can hardly make wishes about transposing Joyce's work on J. K. Rowling's forum 
game is not pretty, moving pictures. it's an idea. it involves active observer, the one who is participating in the act of artistic creation. games with text only exist, i assure you.
I was specifically comparing video games and novels, I said "My problem with this, is that video games do not have (I will add, cannot have) the same artistry nor do they cover the wide range of subjects that novels can."
As such, I do not want video games taking the ethical place of novels for any generation, as video games cannot properly fill that place like a novel can.
Lolita will not transpose to a video game (it did not transfer well to film, let alone a medium that ups the ante for interaction) because of the subject matter, and Finnegan's Wake will not either, because it is a book about language--which is meant to be read. So unless you are going to address video games taking the place of novels, go peddle your pencils to someone else.
Why are you here then?
Flaubert was French, I translated the line roughly into English. The other line is the last in Joyce's Dubliners, if you consider it with the whole of the short stories it is a beautiful piece of writing. As for what you are trying to do, you are either trolling or you are devoid of a literary sensibility.
Oh, it's been a while since I've met a literary snob. You've made my morning. 
As such, I do not want video games taking the ethical place of novels for any generation, as video games cannot properly fill that place like a novel can.
Wasn't that also said about film at one time?
I think video games still have a long way to go before they can be compared to the best books or films, but I don't think that is a problem with a medium itself.
Wasn't that also said about film at one time?
I think video games still have a long way to go before they can be compared to the best books or films, but I don't think that is a problem with a medium itself.
I'd argue that in the long term, I think games will do things which novels are themselves incapable of, pretty much entirely because their lack of agency.
I've never read Lolita or Finnegan's Wake, but I'm going to chime in because it's the internet and I do what I want.
Who cares whether or not those two novels, or any novel really, translates well to a video game? Novels are not unique in their ability to offer a deep and meaningful experience. Unless you mean to imply that a story can only be of any meaningful quality if it happens to be delivered in book form, the alleged incompatibility of novels and video games doesn't really mean much.
I also don't think that video games have to have the same artistry of a novel, but I see no reason why they can't have the same level of artistry.
I've never read Lolita or Finnegan's Wake, but I'm going to chime in because it's the internet and I do what I want.
Who cares whether or not those two novels, or any novel really, translates well to a video game? Novels are not unique in their ability to offer a deep and meaningful experience. Unless you mean to imply that a story can only be of any meaningful quality if it happens to be delivered in book form, the alleged incompatibility of novels and video games doesn't really mean much.
I also don't think that video games have to have the same artistry of a novel, but I see no reason why they can't have the same level of artistry.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lolita
http://en.wikipedia..../Finnegans_Wake
Ok,tell me if video games will cover the subjects of those two novels.
This whole debate is pointless. It's based on an illogical and ludicrous idea the OP came up with - that games with an ethical focus are somehow replacing books.
This has made bookophiles get all defensive, and rallied others who don't like smarter content to complain about it on a "leave that stuff for books and let games be games" angle.
But you're focusing on a connection that doesn't exist. Games with ethical content are no more "replacing" books than TV dramas. These are both artistic mediums. Also two mediums that are inclined to have story lines.
Rephrase this debate to whether games should or should not get more mature/sophisticated content and there may be a point to it. Books have zero to do with it.
Edit - on checking if was the second post that derailed this thread, OP was fine!
The question is this, where does the new generation get its ethical content from? I said that traditionally novels covered this area, Dickens, Nabokov etc. I also said that for this new (lost) generation, video games have been taking up this area. Just by looking at this thread you can see how they have a revulsion towards books (they are thought of as a school chore, archaic) and instead tout video games as what they hope will be their 'ethical progressor ', or they disown such exercises in ethics altogether. My argument is that video games cannot cover the same subjects as novels, nor do such games maintain the same kind of artistry. My examples of novels with subjects that would never happen in a video game included Lolita and Finnegans Wake. You are not going to be playing Humbert Humbert in a video game, it's not going to happen.
And people
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lolita
http://en.wikipedia..../Finnegans_Wake
Ok,tell me if video games will cover the subjects of those two novels
Maybe they couldn't, but you'll notice that that doesn't actually pertain to my point. Even if those subjects couldn't be translated to video games successfully, that doesn't mean that the medium itself is incapable of handling any and all ethical or philosophical subjects.
To attempt to answer your question using only the information gleaned from skimming the wikipedia articles, I don't think that video games will cover the themes in a book like Lolita, but I do think that they could do so. I can't think of any inherent quality of the medium that would prevent it, though there are a few societal considerations that would likely make it difficult.
I will further point out that I thoroughly enjoy literature and I think that being exposed to written works is great for the development of both a personal belief system and an understanding of societal forces at play in the environment in which the book was written. That belief is not mutually exclusive to the thought that a video game could similarly contribute to those two endeavors.
Believing that video games serve no intellectual purpose just because they aren't books is simply closed-minded and elitist.
Maybe they couldn't, but you'll notice that that doesn't actually pertain to my point. Even if those subjects couldn't be translated to video games successfully, that doesn't mean that the medium itself is incapable of handling any and all ethical or philosophical subjects.
To attempt to answer your question using only the information gleaned from skimming the wikipedia articles, I don't think that video games will cover the themes in a book like Lolita, but I do think that they could do so. I can't think of any inherent quality of the medium that would prevent it, though there are a few societal considerations that would likely make it difficult.
Lolita: a middle aged pedophile tries to make his case, that he actually loved Lolita, to the readership of his memoir (most likely a psychologist). The entire book is in Humbert's point of view (very icky), and his language was written to be similar to Milton's Satan--the monster disguised behind a bombastic prose. That's not going to happen in a video game (it did not even work well in Kubrick's film), I see you skipped Finnegans Wake altogether.
The question is this, where does the new generation get its ethical content from? I said that traditionally novels covered this area, Dickens, Nabokov etc. I also said that for this new (lost) generation, video games have been taking up this area. Just by looking at this thread you can see how they have a revulsion towards books (they are thought of as a school chore, archaic) and instead tout video games as what they hope will be their 'ethical progressor ', or they disown such exercises in ethics altogether. My argument is that video games cannot cover the same subjects as novels, nor do such games maintain the same kind of artistry. My examples of novels with subjects that would never happen in a video game included Lolita and Finnegans Wake. You are not going to be playing Humbert Humbert in a video game, it's not going to happen.
The reason why you wouldn't currently see a game covering the subject as Lolita is because it would cause the biggest controversy gaming has ever seen with the general public. Society as a whole is not ready to accept games that delve into that kind of subject matter just yet.
That however is not the fault or limitation of the medium. That is a societal issue.
It's not that video games can't cover the subject. It's that the developers wont cover it, at the moment at least.
I enjoy reading but it's silly to think that literature is the be all end all of ethical content. It's merely the most common one because it's been around much longer than anything else.
The reason why you wouldn't currently see a game covering the subject as Lolita is because it would cause the biggest controversy gaming has ever seen with the general public. Society as a whole is not ready to accept games that delve into that kind of subject matter just yet.
That however is not the fault or limitation of the medium. That is a societal issue.
It's not that video games can't cover the subject. It's that the developers wont cover it, at the moment at least.
I enjoy reading but it's silly to think that literature is the be all end all of ethical content. It's merely the most common one because it's been around much longer than anything else.
Ok then, explain how you think a Lolita video game would work. As doctor Lecter would say, enthrall me with your acumen.
It can go too far.
Remembers being linked the aggregated page of dozens of tumblr posts about having suicidal thoughts after finding out Cassandra was straight... 
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