150 réponses à ce sujet

[Bigdoser]

I can talk myself into hardened Leliana attempting to set the mages free, but I scratch my head at the softened version of the epilogue. Centuries of Chantry indoctrination will not be subdued with words.

Words can be powerful history proves otherwise, Plus leliana is still knows the game and was spymaster instead of stabbing people she uses words as a weapon as all people do in the great game of orlais. 

 

Since words and appearances carry weight just as knifing people in the dark in the game. Hell viv even lectures you that appearances matter a lot more than what you say most of the time. 

[Wulfram]

If you want real change, you need to be radical. Cassandra and Vivienne just set up the same failed system with nothing to stop it breaking down the same way.

[Steelcan]

Words can be powerful history proves otherwise, Plus leliana is still knows the game and was spymaster instead of stabbing people she uses words as a weapon as all people do in the great game of orlais. 
 
Since words and appearances carry weight just as knifing people in the dark in the game. Hell viv even lectures you that appearances matter a lot more than what you say most of the time.

. Its one thing to blackmail a noble, its another to overwrite centuries of tradition, including nations that don't participate in the Game, with words

[d-boy15]

. Its one thing to blackmail a noble, its another to overwrite centuries of tradition, including nations that don't participate in the Game, with words

I don't think lock a group of people in tower can be called tradition not to mention racist against other race.

Necessary evil? may be but not tradition.

[LobselVith8]

I just finished Inquisition, and Leliana was elected as the Divine. A softened Leliana, by the way. I'm very pleased with this result... but it almost seems too good to be true. The mages are finally allowed to govern themselves. But this could ultimately go horribly wrong.

 

Well, Leliana could potentially be a hero of the Fifth Blight, she's associated with a popular Divine who died at a holy site (the Urn of Sacred Ashes), and she's supported by the so-called 'Herald of Andraste', who Andrastians believe to be chosen by the Maker (and who may even be an elf or a mage, or both in the case of Lavellan). This is most likely why she's able to establish positive reforms for mages, and for non-humans who want to enter the priesthood of the Chantry.

 

It's interesting... I've spent the whole series advocating for mage liberation, and now that I finally have it, I wonder if it really is too radical and risky. Perhaps Cassandra would be a safer choice? I have no interest in Vivienne's return to the mostly status quo. I could totally accept Cassandra's reforms, but Leliana's choices are just so intriguing. I even find a hardened Leliana to be rather appealing; at least the ideals she fights for are admirable.

 

It's ultimately up to you, but after almost a millennium of this system (with all the Rights of Annulment, the Rites of Tranquility, and every abhorrent action that came with allowing templars "dominion over mages by divine right"), I think it's time for a better system.

[Steelcan]

I don't think lock a group of people in tower can be called tradition not to mention racist against other race.
Necessary evil? may be but not tradition.

Circles are a cultural practice like any other

[Master Warder Z_]

Its ridiculous what she does, and I'm tempted to write it off completely as fanservice nonsense

I already did.

[BountyhunterGER]

I personally like the reforms Leliana makes - especially the one with opening the clergy to all races.

 

And the mage freedom?

Things can go south like before yes.

But It doesn't need to be like before.

The new freedom offers the mages a big chance and they've seen what happens if they don't take it.

Everybody has the ability learn from mistakes they or others did.

 

And I really don't see why unhardened Leliana is considered to be so unrealistic.

She knows how to play the game, how to ruin her enemies or just blackmail them ..(her abilities don't just completely vanish because she is divine now).

The main difference between hardened/ unhardened is that she just searches for other ways first than just going on a killing spree.

[Steelcan]

Unhardened Leliana talking to people to eliminate centuries of prejudice?

Absolutely ridiculous

[Master Warder Z_]

Unhardened Leliana talking to people to eliminate centuries of prejudice?

Absolutely ridiculous

Also what about mass uprisings against the reforms? Nobility to Peasantry share the stigma against magic.

[Ieldra]

I just finished Inquisition, and Leliana was elected as the Divine. A softened Leliana, by the way. I'm very pleased with this result... but it almost seems too good to be true. The mages are finally allowed to govern themselves. But this could ultimately go horribly wrong. It's interesting... I've spent the whole series advocating for mage liberation, and now that I finally have it, I wonder if it really is too radical and risky. Perhaps Cassandra would be a safer choice? I have no interest in Vivienne's return to the mostly status quo. I could totally accept Cassandra's reforms, but Leliana's choices are just so intriguing. I even find a hardened Leliana to be rather appealing; at least the ideals she fights for are admirable.

Leliana is a radical. That's problematic for a Divine.

 

As for the mages, I found Leliana's outcome to be not quite believable, and thus I prefer Cassandra as the Divine plus I freed the mages, which means we'll get two competing systems, with Cassandra  re-establishing reformed Circles and the Inquisition mages creating the College of Enchanters. Both are significantly better than the previous state of things, and we'll see which one of the two works better. I find this to be the most interesting outcome.

[LOLandStuff]

So many Divine Leliana threads. Almost beats the romance ones.

[Ranadiel Marius]

And I really don't see why unhardened Leliana is considered to be so unrealistic.
She knows how to play the game, how to ruin her enemies or just blackmail them ..(her abilities don't just completely vanish because she is divine now).
The main difference between hardened/ unhardened is that she just searches for other ways first than just going on a killing spree.

She is unrealistic because IRL we have had issues with prejudices where blood has been shed, brilliant leaders have spoken, and we still have serious issues with discrimination that cannot be shaken after all of that. And those are unfounded prejudices, unlike mages who are able to accidently kill off an entire village. Having all of that just vanish like it was nothing in all aspects of southern Thedas life in less than 1/20th of the time that we have been fighting real life prejudices just because one person talks to people ranges from hopelessly naive to frightenly disconnected from any sense of reality.

I have no problems with her managing to open the clergy up to everyone (ignoring possible lore contradiction of it already being open to them), but making mages universally accepted over the course of her life is far too disconnected from how people work for me to be able to take it seriously.

Edit: Should mention that I do find her, did not do her side quest Divine ending believable (not that any of her supporters would ever choose it).

[FiveThreeTen]

Better keep your expectations low in terms of consequences on the choice of Divine anyway.

 

I'd like to be surprised but I'm not holding my breath. My bet is all the Divines will lead to a same general state of things.

[TK514]

I just can't sustain my suspension of disbelief with Leliana as Divine.

 

If we'd gone a thousand years with no major magical catastrophe and people had started treating mages as 'no big deal' in spite of Chantry doctrine, then I could see a new message being accepted.  Just look at various social issues the Church in real life has started taking a 'softer' stance on.

 

Thedas, however, has endured magical catastrophe after magical catastrophe, including a massive hole in reality that allowed demons to invade.  Regardless of if mages assisted in resolving the issue, the fact remains that the problem was caused by a mage who was, in turn, supported by other mages.

 

Additionally, regardless of which side you choose, Templars or Mages, mages also unlawfully occupied a major defensive and trade hub of Ferelden, so I'm not seeing that nation being particularly welcoming of those with a magical talent any time soon, and other nations could easily take it as a warning of what could happen to them.

 

Then there's the matter of mages corrupting and nearly destroying two branches of an order the common man views as heroes.  Assuming they survive whatever horror the epilogue implies, I can easily see the Grey Wardens taking a much harsher approach to magic in their ranks as well.

 

I mean, when you simply tally up the magical awful in the last decade, with a Blight, a rebellion, and the Breach crisis, assuming everyone will accept rainbows and nugs Leliana's reforms just doesn't work for me, and knives and threats Leliana really isn't much better.

[SgtSteel91]

The thing is, a lot of the fear of mages in Thedas is due to Chantry doctrine. If Leliana is smart (and she is), she won't merely allow mages to form their own colleges, she'll soften the Chantry's doctrine against mages. Instead of teaching the masses that mages are nothing more than pre-demons waiting to explode in sin and flame, the Chantry could teach the masses that mages are people with useful skills that require refinement in schools in order to be safer and more effective. It's a collective mindset that needs to be shifted, and the Divine is the best person to do it.

 

This, they bring up this very thing here:

 

[Wulfram]

While I support Leliana's reforms, I do think that the epilogues make it seem much too easy. Particularly for "nice" Leliana.

Getting rid of the circles should be a really horrible mess. It would still be worth it.

[SgtSteel91]

People bring up Leliana wanting to open the Chantry to Dwarves and Elves but she also voices wanting Qunari bring accepted into the Chantry as well. Imagine Tal-Vashock (or whatever they're called) having a institution willing to accept them as priests, or Templars/Seekers, or whatever rather than going to banditry or mercenary work.

[d-boy15]

Better keep your expectations low in terms of consequences on the choice of Divine anyway.

 

I'd like to be surprised but I'm not holding my breath. My bet is all the Divines will lead to a same general state of things.

 

Pretty much this. I doubt it gonna make much impact anyway just like the ruler for Orzammar and Ferelden.

 

It just strange to see peoples get angry over a choice that they never consider to choose it and try so hard to attack it any time they have a chance.

If you don't like it, if it too Disney for you then don't choose it simple as that. Be happy with your preferable choice.

 

But no, many peoples in BSN feel like they need to attack other choice they disagree to justify their choice. ME3 RGB all over again.

[MisterJB]

People fear mages because it is only natural to fear people who can set you on fire with their minds or command your actions with a drop of blood. It is only natural.

Pro-mage brainwashing would take generations to take root.

[Barquiel]

Even Cassandra says the chantry needed someone like her when Leliana becomes the new divine. The circle system failed spectaculary and everyone saw how far the templars had fallen (especially if you did the mage path). She's radical, but that's exactly what Thedas needs right now..."new solutions to age-old problems."

[wright1978]

Hardened Leliana is definitely my preferred choice of Divine.

Find it strange that the OP describes Viv as Status quo, when imo Cassandra is the candidate that represents the status quo the closest.

[turuzzusapatuttu]

It's too naive and I don't like it.

I did a threesome with her and Isabela at the Pearl. She didn't seem naive to me that time.

 

The thing is, a lot of the fear of mages in Thedas is due to Chantry doctrine. If Leliana is smart (and she is), she won't merely allow mages to form their own colleges, she'll soften the Chantry's doctrine against mages. Instead of teaching the masses that mages are nothing more than pre-demons waiting to explode in sin and flame, the Chantry could teach the masses that mages are people with useful skills that require refinement in schools in order to be safer and more effective. It's a collective mindset that needs to be shifted, and the Divine is the best person to do it.

Well said. IMO, you should be the Divine.

[Steelcan]

I did a threesome with her and Isabela at the Pearl. She didn't seem naive to me that time.

Sure, no naivete in enacting THE EXACT SAME SYSTEM AS TEVINTER

[SgtSteel91]

Better keep your expectations low in terms of consequences on the choice of Divine anyway.

 

I'd like to be surprised but I'm not holding my breath. My bet is all the Divines will lead to a same general state of things.

 

If you really think about it, any Divine ending hit the same beats.

 

The Chantry is changed from what it was before the game starts, Circles are in place (the College of Enchanters is basically an Independent Circle, imo), Templar as a specialization and people who are Templars exist (whether they be the Templar Order rebuilt, Seekers or Truth rebuilt, or the Inquisition's own Templars). The details are different for different player's taste, but the general idea is roughly the same.