150 réponses à ce sujet

[Barquiel]

Hardened Leliana tends to resolve problems with dagger. Hardened Divine Victoria tends to resolve big problems with lots of daggers.
It can be safely assumed that opposing Leliana and expressing dissatisfaction at her reign are not generally advised.

Sure, it's her solution for dealing with enemy sects within the chantry (and Vivienne isn't any better, probably even worse). But hardened Leliana also rededicates the Chantry to the principle of charity, that doesn't sound like a "police state" to me.

[Ranadiel Marius]

You must have missed her personal quest. For softened Leliana, she calls for the leaders and urges unity, and it works (for now).

Oh I know how her endings work. The only one that makes sense is the neutral one. I was just snarkily pointing out she doesn't always paragon everyone into changing their world views in ten seconds.

[Sir DeLoria]

I like Leliana, but I don't think she should be Divine. Viv is much more qualified when it comes to dealing with mages.

[MisterJB]

It establishes a terrible precedent, though.

[Br3admax]

Your opinion has been noted and disregarded.

[Ranadiel Marius]

Sure, it's her solution for dealing with enemy sects within the chantry (and Vivienne isn't any better, probably even worse). But hardened Leliana also rededicates the Chantry to the principle of charity, that doesn't sound like a "police state" to me.

"Oops looks like someone didn't tithe this year. Don't worry, I'm sure all those starving orphans will forgive you for not being charitable once they find out you left all your worldly possessions to them." *dagger in the gut*

You can have a police state dedicated to charity...it is just very disturbing and not what you normally think of. Not saying that necessarily happens with hardened Lel, but it is an interesting thought.

[Augustei]

It establishes a terrible precedent, though.

Of Mages ruling the Chantry?
Daerog made an interesting point about this recently

There are the Knight-Divines, who are always around the Divine. They are senior/veteran Templars who could easily dispatch the Divine if she succumbed to possession.

Just imagine it
"She was possessed by a demon, I swear! Anyway we should settle the matter of the Sunburst Throne now. Oh hey! The new Divine happens to be favorable to my interests"
Them Knights-Divines are going to have a ball, they're probably kicking themselves they didn't think of this sooner, They can rule the Chantry pretty much XD. Well not while Viviennes still alive, she'll have em leashed, she's smart. But her sucessors.
But even so with the South's feelings on Mages, the chances of the Precedent resulting in more Mage Divines are minimal Though not nonexistant....

[teh DRUMPf!!]

What exactly is your source that Leliana turns Southern Thedas into a "brutal police state"? Because the epilogue doesn't say anything like that.

 

*Hardened only.

 

It is not said in those exact words, but it is stated that Leliana maintains unity by swiftly and violently responding to dissent. How does Leliana respond to anything, that we've seen? Her spies (and assassins). It stands to reason that she is using them towards this same end as well. Ultimately, when you keep secret agents everywhere to be on the lookout for and "silence" folks who might stand against you while letting the rest of your critics live in fear, you've basically set up a police-state of your own ruling.

 

If the player freed mages on the mere principle of "FREEDAHM!!!" then this outcome is all kinds of lulzy.

[teh DRUMPf!!]

It establishes a terrible precedent, though.

 

Not really. Vivienne's not some apostate mage, she went through the Circle and proved exceptional within it. Those mages should get a chance to be more contributing members of society, IMO, that's how the Circle should work: to encourage and promote the best they have to offer.

[MisterJB]

Not really. Vivienne's not some apostate mage, she went through the Circle and proved exceptional within it. Those mages should get a chance to be more contributing members of society, IMO, that's how the Circle should work: to encourage and promote the best they have to offer.

Contributing members of society, yes, but I had roles such as healer, enchantment vendor or soldier in mind.

Not the bloody Divine.

[Tyrannosaurus Rex]

I could give you many. I could speak of a people's need for independence, could use the elves as an example or simply talk about the dangers of mages.

Instead, I will simply say that just because you believe things should be one way, does not mean they are or will ever be.

An ending that tries to tell us Leliana said such nice words that everyone forgot all grievances and prejudices and became friends is as out of place in a dark fantasy setting as The Broodmother would be in "How to train your dragon"

 

Considering how amazing a diplomat Leliana is, I am starting to wonder why we even had a civil war in DA:O.

 

She should have just walked up to Loghain and tell him to stand down and help the wardens. And Loghain would be all "Yeah, ok".

[MisterJB]

Considering how amazing a diplomat Leliana is, I am starting to wonder why we even had a civil war in DA:O.

 

She should have just walked up to Loghain and tell him to stand down and help the wardens. And Loghain would be all "Yeah, ok".

Indeed, with her powers of persuasion, she could easily have convinced Loghain to stand beside Orlais.

Having a single man give up a lifetime of grievances as a horde of darkness is at the gates is way easier than having one entire continent overcome two thousand years of ethnic conflict.

 

If only we had a Leliana, there would be world peace today.

[Daerog]

Forget the stigma, forget the fear, under what law do they fall under?

Chantry law? National law? Their own? Are they an organization that mages can join like the University of Orlais? Do nations have to send mages to them? Why would nations comply with that if they can just set up their own schools to have their mages identify with their homeland rather than mage segregation?

If the Chantry forces nations to comply, then either the mages are not completely free of the Chantry since it forces mages to join or it has become a puppet of the mages.

Nations will not give up such power freely. They will get in on lyrium, at least the wealthy nations, and set up their own system if the Chantry won't deal with magic anymore.

That's why I say Leliana is only giving mages over to the different nations and will soon destroy any mage unity there is in the south.

Not that I'm against it, but I get the feeling people expect an independent, landless nation like the Dalish which the nations of Thedas gladly hand over resources to like it was some Justice League but with children and elderly.

[teh DRUMPf!!]

Contributing members of society, yes, but I had roles such as healer, enchantment vendor or soldier in mind.
Not the bloody Divine.

If she's qualified for the role, then why not?

[MisterJB]

If she's qualified for the role, then why not?

As I said, it creates the precedence of mages in positions of authority. "Magic exists to serve man and never to rule over him" is effectively broken if she becomes Divine. 

One of the reasons mages rule in Tevinter is because there is a long standing association between magic and political power. I would rather not risk establishing one in the South.

[teh DRUMPf!!]

As I said, it creates the precedence of mages in positions of authority. "Magic exists to serve man and never to rule over him" is effectively broken if she becomes Divine. 
One of the reasons mages rule in Tevinter is because there is a long standing association between magic and political power. I would rather not risk establishing one in the South.

I do not see any inherent wisdom in that saying. Better to let some silverspoon born into nobility who may or may not be qualified rule over man than someone who is demonstrably capable just because the latter can work magic?

I get the dangers involved. I am not advocating Tevinter either, but I think the crux of Tevinter's issues is their Circle, not the mere fact that mages can rule. That is, the Imperial Circle does not regulate its mages. Any old fool with enough magical talent can rise to power there. In the South, we don't have that; mages and Templars rule it jointly and Vivienne keeps the Circles functioning as intended more than any of the three. Vivienne is not just any mage, either. She's a former First Enchanter.

[Eliastion]

Nations will not give up such power freely. They will get in on lyrium, at least the wealthy nations, and set up their own system if the Chantry won't deal with magic anymore.

That's why I say Leliana is only giving mages over to the different nations and will soon destroy any mage unity there is in the south.

Not that I'm against it, but I get the feeling people expect an independent, landless nation like the Dalish which the nations of Thedas gladly hand over resources to like it was some Justice League but with children and elderly.

First of all, is it really a bad thing? I definitely agree that mages without strong Chantry-backed Chicle will end up as being part of their respective homelands to much greater degree they are now. But that's one of the obvious things about freedom of mages: your identity ceases to be based solely on the fact that you are a mage.

Also, we must remember that even before dissolution of old Circle, there were a lot of nation-specific things going on, despite isolation of mages from the society. Particular Circles were already pretty different from one another - think about the Mortalitassi, for example. Pretty much a special national-specific mage order in the very same nation the Circle was centered in.

Despite claims of unity, each nation has its own Chantry and its own Circle, really.

 

 

 

As I said, it creates the precedence of mages in positions of authority. "Magic exists to serve man and never to rule over him" is effectively broken if she becomes Divine. 

It does change interpretation of this rule. Since, please do tell me - how is Magic NOT ruling people if being born a mage means that you get extracted from your family and society, forcibly put in an institution enacting strict control over everything you do... and you can't even have a child, since if you do, it's taken away from you right after birth. When you let people's lives to be defined solely by them being touched by the gift of magic - that counts as magic ruling over men in my book.

[dragonflight288]

It does change interpretation of this rule. Since, please do tell me - how is Magic NOT ruling people if being born a mage means that you get extracted from your family and society, forcibly put in an institution enacting strict control over everything you do... and you can't even have a child, since if you do, it's taken away from you right after birth. When you let people's lives to be defined solely by them being touched by the gift of magic - that counts as magic ruling over men in my book.

 

Or the fear of magic ruling people as the case may be. 

[keesio74]

"too radical" depends on where your own ideology lies. Do you believe in radical change and tearing away from the old? Or do you believe that gradual positive change and while keeping some old tradition being a better way?

[FlyingSquirrel]

Personally, I don't think letting mages govern themselves is *that* radical given that the Circles have already collapsed and most templars either got co-opted into the Red Templars or have likely done what Cullen did, i.e. try to find a new place for themselves with the Inquisition or whatever other opportunities present themselves. If you want to talk about "status quo," Leliana is actually the one trying to make the situation at the end of the game work as it stands rather than trying to restore structures that had fallen apart. It's a big *philosophical* change for the Chantry, but on the practical level, she isn't trying to put a genie back in a bottle the way Cassandra and Vivienne might have to.

[Eliastion]

Personally, I don't think letting mages govern themselves is *that* radical given that the Circles have already collapsed and most templars either got co-opted into the Red Templars or have likely done what Cullen did, i.e. try to find a new place for themselves with the Inquisition or whatever other opportunities present themselves. If you want to talk about "status quo," Leliana is actually the one trying to make the situation at the end of the game work as it stands rather than trying to restore structures that had fallen apart. It's a big *philosophical* change for the Chantry, but on the practical level, she isn't trying to put a genie back in a bottle the way Cassandra and Vivienne might have to.

Oh, that's a perspective I somehow failed to consider. But you're right, she's not dissolving Circles or Templar Order - she just doesn't try to re-create them...

When I think about it this way, her approach suddenly makes a lot more sense. Thank you for that input  

[o Ventus]

Step 1) Mages get Freedom
Step 2) As always a few cases of abominations (How common / remote is irrelevent)
Step 3) Mages with their magic start taking all the work from the commoners
Step 4) Mages lynched by mob, riots and mass killings against mages.

Hope that was your plan, otherwise you going to be dissapointed son. Y'know if Bioware ends up potraying things realistically. It's extremely unlikely it will go any other way when the mob has been fearful and hateful of magic for over 1000 years, and when the economic reprocussions are felt from mage freedom when the mages inevitably take all the work.

Freedom from the Circles is waaaay to radical imo. Unless the Monarchies step in and take certain measures, but we have no indications as to this.

Yeah, kind of like how computers are taking away jobs from all the people in real life.

 

Oh, no wait, that didn't happen at all.

[Eliastion]

Yeah, kind of like how computers are taking away jobs from all the people in real life.

 

Oh, no wait, that didn't happen at all.

Well, you don't have to look at our world here, mages taking jobs from common people... that one is pretty much disproven by examples. There are/were societies with mages ruling (Tevinter), governing (Rivain), providing spiritual guidance (elven Dales, modern Avvars) or reduced to slaves (andrastian countries at least in places where Templars get too full of themselves). Incident of mages taking all the work from the commoners is yet to be recorded.

Basically, the magic can do much, but mages are few and far between. If you spread them out, you may end up with a mage in every village, if you're lucky. One mage can perhaps make people's work a tiny bit easier - but he definitely can't do all their work for them.

Concerns about certain inherent dangers of magic are much more realistic - incidents are bound to happen, though I wouldn't say they would actually happen that more often than with current situation (desperate, under-educated apostates with nothing are much more likely to turn blood mages and amateur demonologists than, say, local healer...) but the concern that every such incident could be attributed to mages' freedom seems pretty valid. The dangers do exist - but they are hardly of economical nature.

[keesio74]

 It's a big *philosophical* change for the Chantry.

 

Don't forget the people too. This is a radical change for the regular people of Thedas. That is why radical change is usually hard, even if sometimes for the better. Just need to look at our real world to see how hard it is to push through radical change - even if for the good.

[dragonflight288]

Don't forget the people too. This is a radical change for the regular people of Thedas. That is why radical change is usually hard, even if sometimes for the better. Just need to look at our real world to see how hard it is to push through radical change - even if for the good.

 

But not necessarily one that is forced. A Dalish Inquisitor will hear about people questioning the very nature of how they treat elves because Andraste's Herald is an elf, and they are taking it as a sign that things need to change. I'm currently doing a human mage run through and I'm stopping every time I hear a conversation to find out if they say anything remotely similar. 

 

People's belief in the Inquisitor being sent by the Maker will make larger changes more palatable in regards to the same race/class.