150 réponses à ce sujet

[AtreiyaN7]

I've tried out both Cassandra and (softened) Leliana as the new Divine, and I prefer the Leliana ending as a mage who chose to free the other mages.

 

I think the existing Chantry was so rigidly orthodox and so completely resistant to change, that that is - in no small part - what led to the mage-templar war. Despite that, I went with the more moderate path with Cassandra at first in the hopes that there could still be change without completely upending everyone's way of life and that you could maybe have the best of both worlds (since she seemed to want the Chantry to return to its roots of caring for people and for being charitable). However, it seems as if Cassandra didn't go far enough with her reforms - or perhaps it's that she just doesn't quite have the most diplomatic personality in the world. In any case, it doesn't really seem to do a whole lot for freed mages. Although it's apparently not quite so bad if you conscript the mages, I chose to free them and have them as allies.

 

Sure, Leliana's vision of how things should be is certainly idealistic, but frankly, it's nice for a change of pace that idealism won out from my perspective. As someone who generally plays mages, I can't say that I didn't like that mages were starting to be accepted thanks to her (and, presumably, what my Inquisitor and her mage allies did). Maybe Thedas really needed to be shaken up to the extent that Leliana does it by radically changing the Chantry.

 

And honestly, I think that in terms of interpersonal relationships, Leliana actually does have an edge over Cassandra because of her bardic training and people skills. She can really charm people, and although some might not find what happens particularly realistic in light of Thedan history, I think that if anyone could talk people into coming together, it's her. Sometimes it only takes one person to trigger a change - just look at historical/political figures like Nelson Mandela and so forth. Maybe at one time overthrowing the Apartheid system wouldn't have seemed terribly realistic, but it happened anyway.

[Jackums]

Yes, she's a revolutionary and her changes are radical, and sometimes that's exactly what's needed.

 

There's plenty of headcanon flying around as to what eventuality her reforms will lead to, but what is black and white canon is the results that follow in the months after her naming as Divine; unprecedented acceptance for mages.

 

There's not a single ending variant with either Vivienne or Cassandra as Divine and the mages alive that doesn't result in almost immediate conflict. That, to me, is more telling than anything, or any headcanon anyone can come up with, and says that having the mages policed by any variation of a religious military force is ultimately going to fail in its purpose and just lead to more conflict.

 

"Insanity: doing the same thing over and over again and expecting different results."

 

I say it's time to treat the mages as equal humans, and punish them for their crimes on an individual basis, not as a group, and not prematurely. This resulting in magical catastrophe, abominations running rampant, or any of the other popular anti-freedom theories, is ultimately proven wrong by the epilogue, at least as far as the months following are concerned. Mages of the south have never had such freedom in the current age of Thedas, so what it would supposedly lead to is all largely based on what an anti-magic, hate-spreading, oppressive religious institution has told us, which all stems from them blaming the creation of the Blight on a few mages from over a thousand years ago. It all sounds very fantastical to me. 

[TheKomandorShepard]

Yes, she's a revolutionary and her changes are radical, and sometimes that's exactly what's needed.

 

There's plenty of headcanon flying around as to what eventuality her reforms will lead to, but what is black and white canon is the results that follow in the months after her naming as Divine; unprecedented acceptance for mages.

 

There's not a single ending variant with either Vivienne or Cassandra as Divine and the mages alive that doesn't result in almost immediate conflict. That, to me, is more telling than anything, or any headcanon anyone can come up with, and says that having the mages policed by any variation of a religious military force is ultimately going to fail in its purpose and just lead to more conflict.

 

"Insanity: doing the same thing over and over again and expecting different results."

 

I say it's time to treat the mages as equal humans, and punish them for their crimes on an individual basis, not as a group, and not prematurely. This resulting in magical catastrophe, abominations running rampant, or any of the other popular anti-freedom theories, is ultimately proven wrong by the epilogue, at least as far as the months following are concerned. Mages of the south have never had such freedom in the current age of Thedas, so what it would supposedly lead to is all largely based on what an anti-magic, hate-spreading, oppressive religious institution has told us, which all stems from them blaming the creation of the Blight on a few mages from over a thousand years ago. It all sounds very fantastical to me. 

 

Another guy with pro-mage propaganda that chantry spread hate against magic despite that not being in case chantry spreads nothing but truth about magic as in fact mages caused blights and we know it ignore facts as you wish , also it is funny how you label all those disasters caused by mages (a massive amount of disasters) as chantry lie despite we know that in fact happens quite often.

[keesio74]

There's not a single ending variant with either Vivienne or Cassandra as Divine and the mages alive that doesn't result in almost immediate conflict. That, to me, is more telling than anything, or any headcanon anyone can come up with, and says that having the mages policed by any variation of a religious military force is ultimately going to fail in its purpose and just lead to more conflict.

 

Isn't this only if you did the mage quest? If you did the templar quest, you can potentially get a golden age of peace with Cass as Divine?

[thesuperdarkone2]

Isn't this only if you did the mage quest? If you did the templar quest, you can potentially get a golden age of peace with Cass as Divine?

"If it can last" People like to use the "for the moment" in softened Leliana's ending to signify that her ending won't last. By that logic, that line in Cass' ending also means her ending is temporary.

[I present Chuck Bass]

Here's the reality. In one of my DA:O playthroughs she had a fourway with the HOF and Zevran and that Hep C thing with legs..Isabella

I can't make her divine after that...it's just wrong.

[MisterJB]

Yes, she's a revolutionary and her changes are radical, and sometimes that's exactly what's needed.

 

There's plenty of headcanon flying around as to what eventuality her reforms will lead to, but what is black and white canon is the results that follow in the months after her naming as Divine; unprecedented acceptance for mages.

 

There's not a single ending variant with either Vivienne or Cassandra as Divine and the mages alive that doesn't result in almost immediate conflict. That, to me, is more telling than anything, or any headcanon anyone can come up with, and says that having the mages policed by any variation of a religious military force is ultimately going to fail in its purpose and just lead to more conflict.

 

"Insanity: doing the same thing over and over again and expecting different results."

 

Tell you what, you want to hold up two lines of a poorly thought out ending as if it is sacrosanct, you be my guest. However, the logic used here is faulty on two accounts.

First, there is no need to expect different results through the restoration of the Circle system because its first incarnation already succeeded in its purpose. It led to a thousand years of peace where magic held little to no sway over the life of the average man which was their purpose to begin with.

So, no need for different results. I will happily take a thousand years of peace followed by a rebellion where the mages are reduced to numbers that can be contained in a single town that doesn't even belong to them and where they stay out of charity of non-magical rulers plus some scattered holdouts of terrorists without central leadership unless the PC comes along to hold their hand.

 

Second, you say any iteration of a religious military force policing mages will fail on their purpose and hold up Cass' and Vivienne's epilogues as evidence except that you have already attached the condition of having previously sided with the mages.

Therefore, it's not "religious military force policing mages can never work" but rather "it can't work perfectly in an universe where the Inquisition has already empowered the mages by siding with them."

Therefore, since we are holding epilogues as sacrosanct, all you have to do is side with the Templars and, after everything is said and done, the Circle is re-established without so much as a complaint from the mages. Mostly, because the great majority of them died with the Venatori and we can just start over.

[Jaison1986]

Tell you what, you want to hold up two lines of a poorly thought out ending as if it is sacrosanct, you be my guest. However, the logic used here is faulty on two accounts.

First, there is no need to expect different results through the restoration of the Circle system because its first incarnation already succeeded in its purpose. It led to a thousand years of peace where magic held little to no sway over the life of the average man which was their purpose to begin with.

So, no need for different results. I will happily take a thousand years of peace followed by a rebellion where the mages are reduced to numbers that can be contained in a single town that doesn't even belong to them and where they stay out of charity of non-magical rulers plus some scattered holdouts of terrorists without central leadership unless the PC comes along to hold their hand.

 

Second, you say any iteration of a religious military force policing mages will fail on their purpose and hold up Cass' and Vivienne's epilogues as evidence except that you have already attached the condition of having previously sided with the mages.

Therefore, it's not "religious military force policing mages can never work" but rather "it can't work perfectly in an universe where the Inquisition has already empowered the mages by siding with them."

Therefore, since we are holding epilogues as sacrosanct, all you have to do is side with the Templars and, after everything is said and done, the Circle is re-established without so much as a complaint from the mages. Mostly, because the great majority of them died with the Venatori and we can just start over.

 

And the Chantry isn't full of terrorists when they order to purge any group that doesn't bend the knee to them? I guess so long God is on your side it will aways be justified. By your mindset, we need to purge half of the world population, after all humans are an plague that is slowly killing the planet. Don't we need to be cointained as well? Why is it aways the mages with you? Why are they only ones that need to be cointained? You don't need magic to be an dangerous killer. The Chantry itself proved that very nicely.

[Eliastion]

Tell you what, you want to hold up two lines of a poorly thought out ending as if it is sacrosanct, you be my guest. However, the logic used here is faulty on two accounts.

First, there is no need to expect different results through the restoration of the Circle system because its first incarnation already succeeded in its purpose. It led to a thousand years of peace where magic held little to no sway over the life of the average man which was their purpose to begin with.

So, no need for different results. I will happily take a thousand years of peace followed by a rebellion where the mages are reduced to numbers that can be contained in a single town that doesn't even belong to them and where they stay out of charity of non-magical rulers plus some scattered holdouts of terrorists without central leadership unless the PC comes along to hold their hand.

 

Second, you say any iteration of a religious military force policing mages will fail on their purpose and hold up Cass' and Vivienne's epilogues as evidence except that you have already attached the condition of having previously sided with the mages.

Therefore, it's not "religious military force policing mages can never work" but rather "it can't work perfectly in an universe where the Inquisition has already empowered the mages by siding with them."

Therefore, since we are holding epilogues as sacrosanct, all you have to do is side with the Templars and, after everything is said and done, the Circle is re-established without so much as a complaint from the mages. Mostly, because the great majority of them died with the Venatori and we can just start over.

As much as I find Chantry views on magic inherently flawed and methods involved - repulsive... I must definitely agree here. Cassandra and Vivienne's solutions are flawed and lead to another conflict, which proves their handling of the matter questionable, but that effect does not exist in void. If you side with mages, you have:

 - rebel mages that survived

 - strong presence of mages helping (as Inquisition's forces or allies) to stop the world from falling apart

 - crisis in Redcliffe handled before the royal forces even arrived, so that you can point to Evil Magister (i'd really like the option to send them both with Fiona to be executed in Denerim, but that's impossible, unfortunately)

 - Templars becoming part of the problem, with Inquisition helped by some deserters at best

OBVIOUSLY it's not a favorable situation to re-introduce oppressive Circle system, opposition is bound to happen.

 

If you, however, side with Templars, you have:

 - a considerable force of Templars surviving and redeeming themselves (even with the order dissolved) by helping to stop the world from falling apart

 - crisis in Redcliffe going out of hand and culminating with strong mage's presence on Venatori side

 - whatever mages help Inquisition are pretty much remnants, too few in numbers to make an impression

The situation is VERY different, rebel mages that remain are scattered, at that point any further resistance is something for madmen - the only real choice they have is to either run and hide or to take any offer they are given. 

 

Basically, although I don't necessarily agree that allying with the mages is Inquisition deliberately strengthening them*, the results are undeniable: If the Inquisitor chooses mage path, the rebel mages remain a force to be reckoned with AND their image among common people is likely much better than otherwise. Unconditional surrender is just not going to happen without yet another fight...

 

*For me it's more logical and pragmatic to go for the mages since you already have an offer of alliance ("retconned" out by time magic, but still, Templars never bothered to as much as talk to you) and mage's kit is much more flexible than templar's - when trying to go and close a big hole in the sky you know so little about, you want to be able to improvise - and that's not something one-trick ponies like Templars excel at.

[sandalisthemaker]

Well, I'll never pick her as Divine. What she does is just too out there, to the point where it would eventually cause just as much chaos as Cory's agents. 

 

I wish Divine Leliana could meet In Hushed Whispers Leliana who was all 'mages should never have this kind of power etc.'   She's basically enabling it in the future as Divine.

[MisterJB]

And the Chantry isn't full of terrorists when they order to purge any group that doesn't bend the knee to them? I guess so long God is on your side it will aways be justified. By your mindset, we need to purge half of the world population, after all humans are an plague that is slowly killing the planet. Don't we need to be cointained as well? Why is it aways the mages with you? Why are they only ones that need to be cointained? You don't need magic to be an dangerous killer. The Chantry itself proved that very nicely.

 

It's a Templars vs Mages thread, what do you want me to talk about?

At least you aren't contesting the logic I used, just disliking its morality to which I reply, the mages were the ones who chose to break away, uncaring of how the rest of the world would perceive it. They are the ones who chose to side with Corypheus. Most of the Templar War Table missions are non-violent. For instance, there is one about a group of mages who murder people and try to pin it on the Inquisition and the Templars. When discovered, they are given the chance to surrender and when a few try, the remaining mages nearly kill them. Another is protecting a town from demons. Other is to protect a young mage from a lynch mob.

What do mage War Table missions consist of?

 

And I'm not going on a diatribe about the inherent differences between normal people and mages. That is the basics of the discussion.

No you don't need magic to be dangerous but no normal kid has ever destroyed a whole town like Connor did.
 

[Yuyana]

Too good to be true? Maybe. But all my characters were mages, my mage inquisitor was saving the world with his mage party   . Yes, he was fighting against another mage, I know. I still think he left a good impression   . Mages are dangerous, yes. But we do have explosives and poisons in this world (and even abominations use them  ). Everyone can be dangerous.

 

It is not ending for everyone, and that is why we have another option.

[Eliastion]

I believe Leliana has the right of it.  

 

The Chantry overextended its power throughout the centuries which resulted in a bloated and corrupt institution under which both Mages and Templars suffered.  

 

By returning to its roots as an organization dedicated to spreading the Chant of Light without the use of force and substance dependence, the Chantry can prosper. 

Chantry was literally created as religious fundament legitimizing early Orlesian conquests, while itself being based on cult of Maker and his warrior-saint Andraste... So turning away from spreading Chant by force isn't really returning to its roots. If anything it's evolving past ideas of religious imperial conquest, but the roots are in fact far from peaceful, no matter how you look at it  

[dragonflight288]

Yes, I know that the organization was founded by Drakon I as the religious arm of the Orlesian Empire.

 

When I wrote about the Chantry's return to its roots, I meant that its sole mission should be to spread the teachings of the Maker while also adhering to its tenets in a reasonable manner. 

 

So.....the principles roots and not necessarily the actual Chantry's actions then?

[sharkeye]

I think the only way to depict Leliana as "radical" or "revolutionary" is contrasting her program with the status-quo previous to the Breach crysis (expression which by no cassuality is very akin to the "Oblivion crysis in Esder Scrolls.... ahem, ignorethat). But I would argue that thebases for that comparation are fundamentally flawed.

 

The status quo when the concilium (Divine election) happens is not that previous of the Mage rebellion.

 

Some facts:

-there is no circle of magi snymore whatever option you take, except those two led by Vivienne, but since she, and possibly the Empire itself is loyal to/relies on the Inquisition, it almost does not count. Any how, outside orlais there is no magic institution anymore.

-depending on your coices, either the whole templars are corrupted, dissolved, or aligned with the inquisition and leaderless (and without the seekers) and unable to garantee their pre-war role.

-to that add the imposing political power that the Inquisition wields. It isn't going tobe disbanded and it supports the Divine.

 

So this, in resume, is the status quo.Now, considering this, Leliana is just being somewhat pracmatic or realistic, acknowledging the current political landscape and trying to work from that. I'd rather take Morrigan narration with a grain of salt regarding Leilana means and efectiveness: by all means the narration seems much like a tale told to his son; it is very possible that the details escape/are omitted by her. E.g. the magical unifying diplomatical power of softened Leliana being based in Inquisition image, propaganda and influence.

 

In short, (specially if we take into account that we don'tknow how much time goes from the start of the gameto its end), I'd rather say that Cassandra is a mild reactionary and Vivienne a direct contra-revolutionary with respect to the state of the world at the end of the game.

 

As for the political status of mages in the hipotesis of Leliana's reform taking root, I'd say the following: nothing says that the new magical institution are outside the Chantry's jurisdiction. What changes is the internal organisation(self-government) and the policing stance from the Chantry (less policing, soft control from the doctrinally renewed Chantry, the Inquisition, and possibly some nerfed-rebuilt-b-Cassandra Seekers that abide bythe new directrices of Divine Victoria. Remember that the "one lifespam" of the Divine is the one of the Inquisition, and that the Inquisition might survive pur PC sustaining the new chantry politics. Nations need not interfere.

 

Though, I see as an interesting point of conflict the maintainment/removal of rebel mages' banishment from Ferelden.

[Scuttlebutt101]

Wanted to write a long-ish rant, but too tired right now. Short answer to the thread title - yes, they are. And I will never believe that the rest of Thedas totes okay with it so soon after the mage rebellion.

 

 

What do mage War Table missions consist of?

 

I'm curious actually, what do they consist of? 

[thesuperdarkone2]

Wanted to write a long-ish rant, but too tired right now. Short answer to the thread title - yes, they are. And I will never believe that the rest of Thedas totes okay with it so soon after the mage rebellion.

 

I'm curious actually, what do they consist of? 

If you ally with the mages, the war table quests involve sending agents to try and find the scattered remnants of the mage rebellion, with Sketch (who dies if you side with the Templars) helping, encouraging the Hasmal mages and Templars to join the Inquisition, making reparations to Redcliffe since you allied with them, and an apology from Teagan for how rude he was where he invites the Inquisition to a tournament.

 

If you conscript them, you get a mission where you interrogate Fiona about any resources the mage rebellion gained while you deal with a bunch of mages who tried to escape the Inquisition, and a mission where a bunch of mages are building bombs to use against you.

[The Baconer]

Yes, I know that the organization was founded by Drakon I as the religious arm of the Orlesian Empire.

 

Actually by Archon Hessarian during the Transfiguration of Tevinter, in which the Imperium converted to worshiping the Maker.

[CosmicGnosis]

Leliana is a radical. That's problematic for a Divine.

 

As for the mages, I found Leliana's outcome to be not quite believable, and thus I prefer Cassandra as the Divine plus I freed the mages, which means we'll get two competing systems, with Cassandra  re-establishing reformed Circles and the Inquisition mages creating the College of Enchanters. Both are significantly better than the previous state of things, and we'll see which one of the two works better. I find this to be the most interesting outcome.

That's interesting, Ieldra. I thought you would have preferred total mage liberation. Although you make a good point about having two competing systems. That's probably what makes me question Leliana the most. It might be better for society to witness the debates between conservative and liberal thinkers, rather than completely upending everything they've ever known so quickly. Still, my epilogue sounded really peaceful and progressive.

[Ieldra]

That's interesting, Ieldra. I thought you would have preferred total mage liberation. Although you make a good point about having two competing systems. That's probably what makes me question Leliana the most. It might be better for society to witness the debates between conservative and liberal thinkers, rather than completely upending everything they've ever known so quickly. Still, my epilogue sounded really peaceful and progressive.

That's what I would personally prefer, indeed. However, I'm looking at this through a political lens, and as you said, it does sound too good to be true, my Inquisitor couldn't believe that would last. Leliana's epilogue sounds peaceful and progressive, yes, but the plain fact is that progress always has enemies, even in peaceful times. I'm not saying it can't last, but I do say it won't last without conflict - there will be at least lots of debate and political maneuvering.

Cassandra's epilogue in the "freed mages" version feels more like a development that could reasonably occur and people in general being ok with it. A fear of magic reinforced over a thousand years won't suddenly go away just because the new Divine says so. A conflict between the old and the new thinking *will* happen whoever is Divine, but with both the Inquisitor and Cassandra being reasonable people - which, btw, I wouldn't necessarily attribute to Leliana - I think the debates won't escalate into violence.

Also, in my first playthrough, I got ruthless Leliana as the Divine because I just let things happen without putting my opinion in either way. The thing is, I can't soften her without feeling stupid and intrusive and I don't do stupid and intrusive with my main Inquisitor. People tell me it's a paraphrase problem in that first deciding scene, so perhaps I'll try it one day, but I didn't like ruthless Leliana as the Divine. And lastly, I think the Inquisitor can do without Cassandra much easier than without Leliana. So it's not just the mage problem that influenced my decision in my second playthrough of my main Inquisitor.

[Eliastion]

That's interesting, Ieldra. I thought you would have preferred total mage liberation. Although you make a good point about having two competing systems. That's probably what makes me question Leliana the most. It might be better for society to witness the debates between conservative and liberal thinkers, rather than completely upending everything they've ever known so quickly. Still, my epilogue sounded really peaceful and progressive.

It's Thedas. "Debates between conservative and liberal thinkers" will mean a cold war at best.

Also, you forget one crucial element - regardless of sympathies (mage freedom or not) there is a need for working system that will identify mages and provide them with tuition. College of Enchanters or whatever can do that. Circles were striving to do that. Each system has its weaknesses in this department (College will likely have less hard power while Circless led to people hiding mage children and young untrained mages hiding themselves) but combining them won't change that - it will just create more blind spots and additional confusion between them...

One system is needed not because we don't need debate, but because the system needs to work.