150 réponses à ce sujet

[Ieldra]

One system is needed not because we don't need debate, but because the system needs to work.

"We need one system" does not logically follow from "The system needs to work". Different systems of government exist, and they all appear to work, with varying advantages and disadvantages. I don't see why the same can't apply to training the mageborn.

[Eliastion]

"We need one system" does not logically follow from "The system needs to work". Different systems of government exist, and they all appear to work, with varying advantages and disadvantages. I don't see why the same can't apply to training the mageborn.

I think you misunderstood me. Thedas does have multiple systems:

 - Tevinter with its own spin on Circles and their purpose

 - Dalish with their apprenticeship system

 - Andrastian Circles

 - Qunari with their level of control and servitude that would make pro-circle chantry people squirm

 - Chasind, Avvar and Rivaini - we know less about them but they have their apprenticeship systems too, apparently

However, the world is pretty clearly divided into spheres of influence of those systems. Creating both College of Enchanters AND re-creating Circles results in two competing systems/organisations having jurisdiction over the same people. It's not a "College of Enchanters in Ferelden, Circles in Orlais" thing - they're both everywhere, they're trying to get supporters for their cause, they're competing with each other, most likely quietly sabotaging each other's efforts to prove their point and paint their opponents as incompetent.

 

To give a bit more obvious example of why I think two systems at once are a bad idea: obviously a country can be ruled by absolute monarchy or it can be ruled by some democratic government. But how do you imagine have both (that is, king with absolute authority AND government that is anything other than a facade)?

 

Internal disputes in the one organization responsible for training mages are nothing bad. Two antagonistic organizations responsible for training mages (those same mages, in the same area/poplulation) are a problem.

[dragonflight288]

I think you misunderstood me. Thedas does have multiple systems:

 - Tevinter with its own spin on Circles and their purpose

 - Dalish with their apprenticeship system

 - Andrastian Circles

 - Qunari with their level of control and servitude that would make pro-circle chantry people squirm

 - Chasind, Avvar and Rivaini - we know less about them but they have their apprenticeship systems too, apparently

However, the world is pretty clearly divided into spheres of influence of those systems. Creating both College of Enchanters AND re-creating Circles results in two competing systems/organisations having jurisdiction over the same people. It's not a "College of Enchanters in Ferelden, Circles in Orlais" thing - they're both everywhere, they're trying to get supporters for their cause, they're competing with each other, most likely quietly sabotaging each other's efforts to prove their point and paint their opponents as incompetent.

 

To give a bit more obvious example of why I think two systems at once are a bad idea: obviously a country can be ruled by absolute monarchy or it can be ruled by some democratic government. But how do you imagine have both (that is, king with absolute authority AND government that is anything other than a facade)?

 

Internal disputes in the one organization responsible for training mages are nothing bad. Two antagonistic organizations responsible for training mages (those same mages, in the same area/poplulation) are a problem.

 

Why not have both run as they will for a set period of time, say ten years? At the end of ten years, see which system has the highest success rate. Success in preventing abominations/blood mages, success in training mages effectively to better control their powers, success at reducing magical crime in the areas they're set up in or success in pretty much anything that helps make up a society. And the system that is deemed better gets Chantry and/or Inquisition support.

 

If there is only one system, they have a monopoly on how things are run and thus are very resistant to change. If there is competition over who gets overall backing, and another system to compete against, it'll force both systems to be more willing to look at their own practices and figure out where there's room for improvement, if any of the things they are doing are actually necessary or not. 

 

We don't need two permanent systems on how to handle mages, just enough competition to force the existing systems to own up to their own practices and those in charge to realize that their days of power may be numbered if they don't fix things to make their system as good as it can be. 

[ComedicSociopathy]

[Eliastion]

Why not have both run as they will for a set period of time, say ten years? At the end of ten years, see which system has the highest success rate. Success in preventing abominations/blood mages, success in training mages effectively to better control their powers, success at reducing magical crime in the areas they're set up in or success in pretty much anything that helps make up a society. And the system that is deemed better gets Chantry and/or Inquisition support.

1. And how exactly do you intend to set it up?
2. And how do you intend to measure success?
3. Also, you do realize that you're pretty much setting ground for a full-on mage war after a 10-year period of magical cold war, right?
 

If there is only one system, they have a monopoly on how things are run and thus are very resistant to change. If there is competition over who gets overall backing, and another system to compete against, it'll force both systems to be more willing to look at their own practices and figure out where there's room for improvement, if any of the things they are doing are actually necessary or not.

No, it will force both systems to actively undermine the other, up to and including arranged provocations and sabotage. They're fighting for their very existence and neither would be willing to give up their ideas if established and funded initially. Circles won't allow Thedas to descend into "chaos" and the College definitely won't stand for having their freedom taken away. Either way, each would be too concerned about politics and perhaps preparations for war to actually put all their resources where they belong: cleaning up the mess the Rebellion left.
 

We don't need two permanent systems on how to handle mages, just enough competition to force the existing systems to own up to their own practices and those in charge to realize that their days of power may be numbered if they don't fix things to make their system as good as it can be.

This setting isn't that idealistic, even the nugs-and-rainbows softened Leliana ending isn't that idealistic. If you set up two magical organizations and pretty much pit them against each other, you don't end up with two friendly schools of magic politely discussing whether a wand is manly enough or staffs are the only way to go. And you DEFINITELY don't end up in a situation where the side deemed less successful just shakes winner's hands and disbands.
I can imagine many systems, some petty complicated, some including both Circles and College, but NEVER as "alternative systems" present simultaneously to create competition. There would perhaps be a way to create Circles as, pretty much, mandatory magical pre-school and then invite graduates to College of Magi, but then those are just names for institutions of one system. Allowing existence of two competing systems - and encouraging that competition even, by raising stakes and giving time limit - is just a really, really bad idea.

[Ieldra]

@Eliaston:

At the end of DAI, the Inquisition holds a significant amount of territory in its own right. It's not two systems existing in the same place, claiming jurisdiction over the same people. People can move between the influence spheres, yes, but that's pretty much the intention. Who can attract more parents to send their mageborn children there, and the success in preventing abominations will decide who's going to grow and wane. There will be conflict, yes, but if one side actually ends up being better than the other, the losing side will just take more of a reputation hit if they object too loudly, since in theory, both sides want the same. If the traditional Circle loses and objects, it will be open to claims "All you've ever wanted is to control the mages", and if the College of Enchanters loses and objects, it will be open to claims "You said you'd be better. You failed."

 

I expect there to be a lot of very intense rivalry, but I don't see it spiraling out of control. Neither side would be interesting in triggering a new "terror of mages" right after having won the respect of the world.

[Eliastion]

Oh, they would mostly fight covertly and among themselves. At the beginning, that is.
And Inquisition had some lands and all that, but those lands were not cut away from their respective countries, especially since Thedas seems to have already developed nationalism rather than simple loyalty to current ruler of particular piece of land.

 

 

 

There will be conflict, yes, but if one side actually ends up being better than the other, the losing side will just take more of a reputation hit if they object too loudly, since in theory, both sides want the same.

"In theory". In practice each will most likely perceive the other as obvious threat to anything they hold dear. And if you don't believe, please look at how great politicians tend to agree between themselves, while in theory wanting the same. Or religions - most of them want to make people better and lead humanity to some idea of paradise, right? In theory most of them want pretty much the same thing. In theory they often worship the same God.

Though we don't even need real world to have good examples: in theory Black and White Chantry want EXACTLY the same thing: to convince Maker to come back and make world a paradise. Who cares about those couple of Exalted Marches against one another, especially right after the split, right?

 

Also, your whole idea completely ignores reality of travel as well as finding gifted children in Thedas. It doesn't happen on its own. And moving from one jurisdiction to another, even if you managed to actually draw some borders? Most people never leave they home village in their life. And I'm pretty sure the class system in Orlais makes it hard if not impossible for a peasant to actually travel legally anywhere.

[dragonflight288]

1. And how exactly do you intend to set it up?
2. And how do you intend to measure success?
3. Also, you do realize that you're pretty much setting ground for a full-on mage war after a 10-year period of magical cold war, right?
 

 

1. Well, how I would set it up would be something along these lines, and I'm open to improvement.

 

My Cadash Inquisitor is a templar, and has the majority of templars conscripted into the Inquisition while Cassandra is reforming the order and Vivienne is Divine. How he would do it, since the templars don't actually rejoin the Chantry despite Divine Victoria inviting them back, is to set up the college in areas where Chantry dominance is, not so dominant, like Rivain, or where traditions or more lax like Nevarra with the mortalitasi or Ferelden with its liberal views on magic. All mages born in those regions would fall under the influence of the College of Enchanters while those in Orlais, the Anderfels, the Free Marches (depending on the city-state I suppose) or Antiva would follow under the Circle system. Between Vivienne, Cassandra and my Inquisitor, they would enforce the rules on blood magic and hunt down abominations, but allow each system to operates as it would. 

 

2. How I would measure success is pretty simple. Statistical data. How many mages in a ten year period had to be made tranquil because they couldn't control their powers, how many mages passed their harrowing, how many abominations had to be put down, how many escape attempts, how many times those in charge needed to be cracked down upon by the Seekers or other internal affairs agents and how many requests outside the circle or college are there for magical aid. Everything would be recorded and compared. Statistics cannot account for happiness or where the problems lie, but if you can compare one systems data to another system's, you can say "The Circle had less civilian casualties because it could contain the abominations, but the college had far less escape attempts and have more healers out in the world and the number of lives saved exceed the number of those lost," or "the college had less escape attempts but they have less study  and lore materials and thus less control of their magics and more abominations, or they have less boundries and thus are prone to more mistakes."

 

It is a mistake, in my opinion, to discount something new because we don't know how it'll go.

 

3. It doesn't necessarily have to mean "cold war" as we understand it. Sure, it could mean that, but if, after the ten year period, we have statistical data on which system produces the better overall results, less abominations and blood mages and more well-trained mages, we would be able to say with a certain degree of certainty if the Circle system actually is the best way, or at least better than the new system, or if a new system actually does work in the place of the Circle's. 

[fizzypop]

I love threads like this...mages are savages they can't have their freedom or be treated like all other poor ass peasants! They must have it worse! Never mind ALL of the examples of free mages we have seen that work out you know like dalish or morrigan. I always laugh because all the things people say against the whole free mages thing is the same things we have said IRL about various people. Bioware you sneaky bitches trying to teach the masses history and what happens when you repeat it!

[Ieldra]

I love threads like this...mages are savages they can't have their freedom or be treated like all other poor ass peasants! They must have it worse! Never mind ALL of the examples of free mages we have seen that work out you know like dalish or morrigan. I always laugh because all the things people say against the whole free mages thing is the same things we have said IRL about various people. Bioware you sneaky bitches trying to teach the masses history and what happens when you repeat it!

That's not all this is about. There are two aspects to this: mage training and how trained mages should be treated. Your argument has merit only with regard to the latter. The plain fact is that a mageborn child *must* be trained, and even if you discount that not all mageborn parents are qualified to train their children themselves, mageborn children can be born to non-mage parents. So a centrally organized training system really is for everyone's benefit, including the mageborn. The free mages we see have all been lucky to have had good - if not always gentle - teachers. Those not so lucky, well, we don't see them because they're dead - as the girl in Chateau d'Onterre.

 

As for the "mages are dangerous and must be contained" mindset, in this thread it's more a question of how to get out of it rather than its merit as an ideological basis for a police state. If I say that Leliana's future is implausible, it's not because I think free mages are implausible, but because I think the transition to the new mindset won't be that easy.   

[Fredward]

I don't really think softened Leliana will be able to pull something like that off really. She only succeeds with that speech since everyone is so tired of fighting. Hardened Leliana though? I wouldn't be surprised if she winds up being assassinated a few years into her reign but her changes will be too far along to be stopped by that point.

[rx00]

Hardened Leliana though? I wouldn't be surprised if she winds up being assassinated a few years into her reign but her changes will be too far along to be stopped by that point.

 

Not if she assassins them first. Maker saves the Divine? Maker saves them from the Divine!

[Fredward]

Not if she assassins them first. Maker saves the Divine? Maker saves them from the Divine!

 

I imagine that's gonna happen to the first 327 would be assassins but even Leliana is not going to be able to intercept every knife aimed at her ruthlessly idealistic heart.

[rx00]

I imagine that's gonna happen to the first 327 would be assassins but even Leliana is not going to be able to intercept every knife aimed at her ruthlessly idealistic heart.

 

I meant to be sarcastic, but yes, she can't if she goes that radical. And in this case she can hardly have public support like what Bolsheviks did(which became a terror region), since most folks in Thedas are frightened by magic and racist against elf.

[Eliastion]

I don't really think softened Leliana will be able to pull something like that off really. She only succeeds with that speech since everyone is so tired of fighting. Hardened Leliana though? I wouldn't be surprised if she winds up being assassinated a few years into her reign but her changes will be too far along to be stopped by that point.

Frankly, I have my own thought about how miraculously those peace talks worked. Especially if you listen to Morrigan when she says it I guess I expect it to be something along the lines of miraculous Celene-Gaspard-Briala truce you can arrange in Winter Palace... But maybe that's just me (and my optimistic assumption that moments like that are the case of unreliable narrator rather implementation of Friendship is Magic principle that, frankly, doesn't fit too well with a system where your resident unicorn is an undead horse with sword through its skull).
 

1. (...)
2. (...)
3. (...)

(sorry, it's a reply to your post in its entirety and I don't want a wall of quote from something everyone can read a couple posts up)
It still doesn't seem like something that could actually be pulled off in Thedas and possibility of actually gathering research data you speak of seems more like wishful thinking... The best you could do with that idea would be reinstating Circles in certain countries and pretty much giving up on doing that in others - leading to dividing Thedas between systems rather than creating two coexisting/competing systems. After ten years (and that's awfuly shorts, you should make it more like thirty if you want to actually see any results of system of education, not just governance of mage affairs) the systems would most likely take roots enough to not part easily with their existence... 

Oh, and then there is that Vivienne who would never agree to something like that, but that's another matter entirely and doesn't concern the core idea

 

 

I love threads like this...mages are savages they can't have their freedom or be treated like all other poor ass peasants! They must have it worse! Never mind ALL of the examples of free mages we have seen that work out you know like dalish or morrigan. I always laugh because all the things people say against the whole free mages thing is the same things we have said IRL about various people. Bioware you sneaky bitches trying to teach the masses history and what happens when you repeat it!

As pro-mage-freedom as I am, you miss one crucial point - the situation is not analogous. There is an analogy between treatment of elves and some real-world peoples, but with mages it's not that easy. A trained mage is pretty much carrying his assault rifle everywhere he goes. An untrained mage is in serious danger of blowing himself up (getting possessed with disastrous effects). Including those very real dangers makes the problem morally much more complicated than simple racism issues.

I constantly argue with mage-controllers here but that doesn't mean they have no valid points to make  

[Master Warder Z_]

In my opinion the prior circle system worked marvelously.

A few instances of extremism though and people forget they were raised up for a reason.

Leliana likely all Divine candidates are going to meet their end on the blade of a assassin.

[dragonflight288]

In my opinion the prior circle system worked marvelously.

A few instances of extremism though and people forget they were raised up for a reason.

Leliana likely all Divine candidates are going to meet their end on the blade of a assassin.

 

Minus the lack of oversight and corruption among the law enforcers, both Seekers and Templars, added into the chantry recruiting practices for templars looking for the more religiously zealous and less for the people of integrity. 

 

The Circle System before Asunder and Inquisition was practically a long-term Stanford Prison Experiment. 

 

As Cassandra outright says about the Seekers, if they couldn't see a problem, then in their perspective it didn't exist, and if someone else insisted that it did, they were the blind one. And part of the biggest problems in the old Circle was that the Seekers weren't enforcing the rules on the templars like they should've been, and were actively keeping information on their own activities secret so the Divine couldn't crack down on them. 

 

As for the problem with the Templars, it was that each Circle and how it was run was entirely dependent on the character of each individual Knight-Commander and the type of people they chose to promote and the rules they chose to enforce with the level of severity for transgressions also dependent on their whims, and the mages, regardless of rank, simply had to deal with it. 

 

Gregoire seemed quite the reasonable man, sending Cullen away when he was deemed unstable around the mages, that one templar we find enchanted by the Desire Demon being separated from the mages, his willingness to take Irving's word over Cullen's. Whereas Meredith, even before having the idol, promoted sadistic zealots to positions of power and then willfully turned a blind eye to their corruption even if evidence began to stack against them. 

 

A system that allows such a wide variation in its commanding officers clearly has an internal affairs issue, and it was poised to boil over the sealed pressure pot. And when it did, it exploded (literally) to devastating results. 

 

I know we've had this debate in the past, but I don't think I can be convinced that the old system worked just fine and dandy minus a few extremists on each side. I think the system itself was flawed. 

[Master Warder Z_]

I think the system itself was flawed.

Of course it was. But it provided the need medium for both normal person and mage, it was and is in my eye the only true long term solution.

Either give protection along with oversight or else risk destruction and mass killings.

A lot of folks gripe about civilization being horrible but fail to remember what it was like before it.

A Thedas without circle may not result in another Tevinter but it could result in the same chaos of the pre circle era.

[dragonflight288]

Of course it was. But it provided the need medium for both normal person and mage, it was and is in my eye the only true long term solution.

Either give protection along with oversight or else risk destruction and mass killings.

A lot of folks gripe about civilization being horrible but fail to remember what it was like before it.

A Thedas without circle may not result in another Tevinter but it could result in the same chaos of the pre circle era.

 

Yet we never have heard in the lore of anything like this happening on a grand scale in places that have a different system in place like Rivain. 

[Master Warder Z_]

Yet we never have heard in the lore of anything like this happening on a grand scale in places that have a different system in place like Rivain.

Right.

Cite the place you can't say isn't being half obliterated outside the capital on weekly basis.

We never hear of anything the writing team doesn't feature, and Rivain being a smoking ruin isn't really relevant to anything or anyone outside of Rivain.

Also until the rebellion there was a circle there, it's practices seemed fairly lax.

[dragonflight288]

Right.

Cite the place you can't say isn't being half obliterated outside the capital on weekly basis.

We never hear of anything the writing team doesn't feature, and Rivain being a smoking ruin isn't really relevant to anything or anyone outside of Rivain.

Also until the rebellion there was a circle there, it's practices seemed fairly lax.

 

The circle there was only a circle in name only, and the chantry allowed it many luxuries other circle's lacked because mages are so supported by the mundanes. 

 

And there is no evidence, at all, that the capital is ravaged by abominations. There are no accounts of it happening, or that abominations as we understand them even exist on any level of regular basis. And it also isn't Tevinter since mages don't rule there, nor does it practice slavery to my knowledge. 

 

As such, until we have more information, it is and has been for some time, my argument that we cannot dismiss the way things are run in Rivain out of hand because our knowledge of magic is seen from the view of the Andrastian Chantry and we haven't actually seen the differences in what these other systems actually do. 

 

You say that their capital is trashed on a regular basis, then provide evidence that says this is so. 

[Master Warder Z_]

The circle there was only a circle in name only, and the chantry allowed it many luxuries other circle's lacked because mages are so supported by the mundanes.

And there is no evidence, at all, that the capital is ravaged by abominations. There are no accounts of it happening, or that abominations as we understand them even exist on any level of regular basis. And it also isn't Tevinter since mages don't rule there, nor does it practice slavery to my knowledge.

As such, until we have more information, it is and has been for some time, my argument that we cannot dismiss the way things are run in Rivain out of hand because our knowledge of magic is seen from the view of the Andrastian Chantry and we haven't actually seen the differences in what these other systems actually do.

You say that their capital is trashed on a regular basis, then provide evidence that says this is so.

Blah blah, I assert this and then when it's pointed out it's speculation, I go behind the citation defense

Despite the frequency of incidents not being specified period, you use it as a success story, I'll say this one more time.

Natural disasters can be as frequent or infrequent as the Maker wills.

Also buddy you may wish to read more clearly when your dismissing a post, I said outside of the capital, I think the seat of the Chantry and Monarchy would be the best defended bit of Rivain no?

Random lick spittle villages though? Not so much.

[dragonflight288]

Blah blah, I assert this and then when it's pointed out it's speculation, I go behind the citation defense

Despite the frequency of incidents not being specified period, you use it as a success story, I'll say this one more time.

Natural disasters can be as frequent or infrequent as the Maker wills.

Also buddy you may wish to read more clearly when your dismissing a post, I said outside of the capital, I think the seat of the Chantry and Monarchy would be the best defended bit of Rivain no?

Random lick spittle villages though? Not so much.

 

True, Lothering was out in the sticks and was sacrificed to darkspawn. One doesn't need to be a mage to have those kinds of problems, and the biggest issue with mages is making sure they're trained. If a system is in place that trains them well, it does not necessarily have to be the Circle, then the issue with abominations, which the codex entries already makes clear is a rare event, is less likely to happen.

[Master Warder Z_]

Note those codexes you are using to prop up your argument are from circle magi and not rivaini apostates who allow possession which sort of ruins the scarcity argument.

There are as many abominations as there are seers.

[dragonflight288]

Note those codexes you are using to prop up your argument are from circle magi and not rivaini apostates who allow possession which sort of ruins the scarcity argument.

There are as many abominations as there are seers.

 

If by abomination you mean possessed mage, then yes. But what I deem an abomination is a mage who has lost all sense of will and the demon controls everything about them.