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[ThreeF]

Excellent qualities in the new Divine.

after her personal quest she grows out of it one way or another.

[Rawgrim]

It's based on 2 choices prior to the quest (Do you let her kill the traitor right at the start, do you say that soldiers are expendable), with any deviation leading to crazy murderer Leliana.

Nothing else in her life or in the game matters.

 

Takes extremely little to turn her into a maniac, then. Just two comments from a fellow she barely knows.

[Wulfram]

Takes extremely little to turn her into a maniac, then. Just two comments from a fellow she barely knows.

Well, one comment actually. You only need to pick "wrong" once.

[Megakoresh]

It's one of those completely illogical and obscure consequences. BioWare games tend to have those. All other BioWare games have at least one, it's to be expected by this point.

 

I suppose it's hard to keep all the variables in mind all the time when you are making something this large. Although Inquisition is WAAAAAY larger than it could have been. And not in a good way. Though I don't know how much the MMORPG bits actually make it harder to keep track of the plot-centric character development.

 

But if you recall, it was the same in Origins. All that mattered is one choice during the Marjoline quest. That was all that mattered at far as her personality goes. It was just better scripted and better placed, so the consequences didn't come out as surprising and illogical.

[Rawgrim]

It's one of those completely illogical and obscure consequences. BioWare games tend to have those. All other BioWare games have at least one, it's to be expected by this point.

 

I suppose it's hard to keep all the variables in mind all the time when you are making something this large. Although Inquisition is WAAAAAY larger than it could have been. And not in a good way. Though I don't know how much the MMORPG bits actually make it harder to keep track of the plot-centric character development.

 

But if you recall, it was the same in Origins. All that mattered is one choice during the Marjoline quest. That was all that mattered at far as her personality goes. It was just better scripted and better placed, so the consequences didn't come out as surprising and illogical.

 

That quest was way more fleshed out, though. And Leliana certainly had plenty cause.

[Wulfram]

The other thing about Origins is that the two Leliana's weren't so ridiculously extreme

Deciding whether Leliana will agree to a threesome or not isn't the same as her turning into either a Crazy Murderer or Saint Leliana who basically fixes the world through hugs.

[Elhanan]

Well, one comment actually. You only need to pick "wrong" once.

If so, it would be much like Alistair in DAO, as he only had a single opportunity to become 'Hardened', too.

This said, I am grateful that I chose a bit less of an aggressive approach this time; the change is a nice one. And I am grateful that choices do matter, even if it is only as much as was received in the prior series.

[Winged Silver]

Takes extremely little to turn her into a maniac, then. Just two comments from a fellow she barely knows.

 

I assume the game takes a condensed view on it. Those two comments are probably meant to represent more interaction behind the scenes. I'm not sure if the encounter would've been improved by having other conversations where you can harden/soften Leliana, or if that would've become repetitive after the first two times. 

 

Leliana has always struck me as the type of character that bases herself off of her companions (someone else mentioned this as well). There seems to be very little in her life that was a decision made by herself, for herself. She's a follower, essentially. A powerful one, who's willing to do what she sees as right, but easily influenced by those she considers worthy of following. And given her religious nature, I could see her lending more weight to the Inquisitor - someone she barely knows, as you said - given that she may be viewing the Inquisitor as the voice of the Maker, consciously or subconsciously. 

[Timpants]

Unlike in Origins, Leliana starts off as hardened. It's not 2 comments turning her into a maniac, it's 2 comments stop her from being a maniac. Leliana has spent years being conditioned by Justinia to become the perfect spymaster, if you don't try to turn her away from this she probably takes it as tacit approval that you like her killing etc and by the time you get to her personal quest she's decided that it is what you want.

[Ally_]

Hmm...I have one playthrough where I told Leliana to kill the traitor, but then told her that our men are not disposable in Skyhold and she didn't go into auto-kill mode in her personal quest. 

 

Regardless. I don't get this "Leliana was sweet as pie when I finished DAO and now she's ruthless. Please fix." 

It's been 10 years! 

Do you even know how much a person can change in that time depending on what they experience? (Or maybe have something re-surface that was there all along). 

 

I am personally OK with how she is (especially since you can soften her). 

It would have been completely unrealistic if she was all sunshine and daises and unicorns and rainbows. o.O

Heck, if she were like that (from the get-go, at the start of the game) after the lifestyle she's been living - THAT would have made me more suspicious of her and see it as a facade.  

 

Leliana did not go into stasis the moment you finished DAO. She lived her own life and it affected her, for better or worse.

She still holds onto some things (I wonder why those are overlooked by the ones calling her completely ruthless). 

Schmooples II and Boulette, Baron Plucky, the way she wants to deal with the Vargests. Her soft side is still there.

Just because she doesn't go flaunting it around doesn't mean it's gone ans she's psycho murderer. 

 

I wouldn't expect her to warm-up to the Quizzy like she did with the Warden. Theirs was a special relationship and different circumstances. 

[Dai Grepher]

I understand the complaints about Leliana. I agree that she was too different. But on the other hand I can see it as well within the realm of possibility that she would change for the worse by the time Inquisition rolls around. Hear me out.

 

It has been 10 years since Origins. Plenty of time for her to change. Next, she was pulled away from her life by Justinia, a woman Leliana felt indebted to. She was used by Justinia, and her role was to be dark and deceitful and ruthless. All the things Justinia could not be while on the Sunburst Throne. The story was that even though Leliana was doing these awful things, it was all for a greater good. Then what happens? Justinia gets killed in a horrific explosion that rips the world a new one and escalates the war. So Leliana felt betrayed by the Maker. She thought Justinia was the best of them, and yet the Maker did not save her. She wonders if the Maker even bothers to listen to their prayers. In this she may also be doubting herself. Remember that she had her own faith that the Maker has not left the world. She believed that the Maker still watches over them and helps them and speaks to them through signs. If you take her to the temple in Origins the Guardian calls her out on it. Whether she really is a fraud or if that was just the Guardian testing her faith is unknown, but maybe Leliana was also coming to grips with her lie (if it was a lie). Or maybe she thinks her idea of the Maker was just her own imagination.

 

Either way, she has been through too much in those years, and it makes sense that she might fall back into her old life ala Leliana's Song when she has no one around to guide her.

 

Personally, my Inquisitor doesn't like Leliana. Or at least, he didn't throughout the first half of the game. He had the proper conversation with her, and after her personal quest I think she will go back to being good again.

 

Like I said, I understand the complaints, but I think I prefer her to be malleable by the Inquisitor. I don't think it should hinge on one conversation though.

[Efvie]

Why are people so surprised? This side of her has been present since Origins..

 

Because I feel that if the Warden ensures Leliana stays on the better path in Origins (choice that should matter), and stays with her throughout the years after that, it should have some effect.

 

Or, put another way, my Amell would have left her long ago otherwise if this was an inevitable outcome. Because that is not an option, Leliana should probably default to ‘softened’ in the case that she’s unhardened in DA:O.

[Saphiron123]

You hardened her, OP. In haven.

I talked my leliana out of it.

[ThreeF]

There are those choices, but the "hardening" choice is independent of those.

She does have some dialogue about her death, but it has no impact aside from that dialogue. The other choices I don't think are referenced

 

She is hardened no matter what, her service to the Divine hardened her. When I said "more cold" I mean how she sounds when she speaks of certain things (like her death).

 

(point is she doesn't starts softened in the game, she starts hardened)

[Ryzaki]

She is hardened no matter what, her service to the Divine hardened her. When I said "more cold" I mean how she sounds when she speaks of certain things (like her death).

 

(point is she doesn't starts softened in the game, she starts hardened)

 

Yep if you want to blame anyone for her being a jerk blame Justina.

 

That woman certainly wasn't a saint.

[Wulfram]

She is hardened no matter what, her service to the Divine hardened her. When I said "more cold" I mean how she sounds when she speaks of certain things (like her death).

I'm a bit confused by what you're trying to say, but going by the scene on Youtube she doesn't really sound very different when she was talking about how she died from how she does anyway. And the rest either has no impact or is not imported at all.
 

(point is she doesn't starts softened in the game, she starts hardened)

Relative to her personality in Origins, yes. But then she goes and turns into an insane out of control murderer in her personal quest. Or a saint.

[ThreeF]

Relative to her in Origins, yes. But then she goes and turns into an insane out of control murderer in her personal quest.

 

Because that's her breaking point.

[Wulfram]

Because that's her breaking point.

Except it's apparently not her breaking point, because her actions are dictated by some random conversation hours ago, and nothing has actually happened on that quest to send her nuts before she starts killing

[ThreeF]

Except it's apparently not her breaking point, because her actions are dictated by some random conversation hours ago, and nothing has actually happened on that quest to send her nuts before she starts killing

Not really, her actions are dictated by what she was doing all these years after Origins. You can attempt to undo the damage, but if you fail - she breaks.

[vetlet]

At the end of my playthrough, I discovered I had turned her into the Thedas' scariest divine ever. But she was always a killer: an assassin.

[Dai Grepher]

Princess Stab-itty! Stab! Kill! Kill!

[Banxey]

I thought it was great that it was so subtle. I wish all the choices were like that.

 

And I don't think it's as simple as one conversation turning her into a killer. That may be the technical side of it it. But the conversation where this occurs happens right after a conversation where she is struggling with her foundations being completely obliterated. She desperately needs something to steady her. It's not about telling her what to do or "training her" it's about giving her something to focus on. If the Herald of Andraste tells her "do your job, kill your friend." everything she does off camera after that point is going to have an impact on how she moves forward.

 

In my opinion DAO was the one that got it wrong. I wish they'd handled Bull's personal quest in the same way they handled Leliana's.

[Sarielle]

She just had  the Divine, a woman she looked up to and served, die. I don't think it's unreasonable for her to be bitter and turn down a darker path if she isn't turned from it.

[Wrath_Of_Deadguy]

Lady's got more issues than Reader's Digest. She used to be a bard... and during those years she was manipulated by her then-lover and mentor into doing some utterly ugly things, culminating in her being betrayed by said lover/mentor, stabbed, tortured, and imprisoned. She is "saved" by the future Divine, who replaced Marjolaine as her mentor and became something of a mother figure- and considering where she was when she first joined the Chantry, she feels a pretty strong sense of obligation towards her savior. Then the Warden comes along and either exposes her to incontrovertible proof of her beliefs (the "good" sacred ashes path) or shatters her faith in humanity and leaves her for dead (the "bad" path). At some point she may or may not have confronted Marjolaine, but regardless of how that turns out she gets over that chapter of her life and moves on. This is also her first real experience of being part of something really, truly important- but in which she plays an almost trivial role (since she's not even a mandatory companion). She's had a taste of saving the world, and she liked it.

 

Then Justinia comes back into the picture and cashes in on the debt Leliana feels that she owes to her and proceeds to capitalize on all of her darkest qualities- doubtless telling her that she'd be doing vital work that could make or break the future of the Chantry. For ten more years. Whether the Warden hardened her or not in DAO is almost incidental. That episode spans a few months. Justinia was the major influence in Leliana's life- she saved her and gave her purpose when she was at her lowest. She shaped Leliana's entire worldview, for better or for ill... and she used that power she had to use Leliana for her own ends. She pushed Leliana's hero button and made her believe that the faith she depended on so heavily in her darkest hour was dependant on her being willing to get her hands dirty.

 

As naive as Leliana was in DAO, she was not stupid- just loyal to a fault and stubbornly optimistic about human nature. She liked to see the good in people. I think that Justinia's death forced her to take a deep look at herself, and I think that in doing so she realized that Justinia had been using her exactly the same way Marjolaine did. Minus the sex. So when Inquisition picks up she's either been betrayed and/or used by every single person who's ever held power over her, else the Warden is the one and only unambiguously positive influence in the whole of her existence- a person who was unable to be there for her when she most needed a friend (or lover) in her corner. And then it all comes crashing down.

 

So yeah, I'd expect her to be pretty hard and bitter. Her work (and depending on the imported choices, possibly a letter from the Warden every now and again) is pretty much all that's keeping her going at this point. If you're consistent in how you deal with her, then she's consistent too- otherwise, she'll call you out on it, and be justifiably pissed because your vacillations are only causing her to doubt herself again.

[AWTEW]

I like what they did with her character. Leliana is vulnerable and very easily influenced. She has the potential to go one way or another depending on the people in her life. She latches on to people (whether it's Marjolaine, the Divine, the Warden, or the Inquisitor) and desperately looks to them for guidance. She's flawed for sure but that makes her interesting to me. It seems in line with her character in Origins that the Inquisitor can also "harden" her.
I also wonder how trustworthy she is. At the Halamshiral ball we see a small hint of Leliana's more light-hearted side like she had in Origins but she suggests that it's just part of the Game. Was she playing the Hero of Ferelden then?

 I do belive that she was playing the hero of feralden, in origins. at least until a point. 

From what I've read she is a bit more cold if she was hardened in DAO
 
She couldn't be "nice" Leliana no matter what, not after all this time where she was assassinating people left and right for the Divine.

  exactly.

Because I feel that if the Warden ensures Leliana stays on the better path in Origins (choice that should matter), and stays with her throughout the years after that, it should have some effect.
 
Or, put another way, my Amell would have left her long ago otherwise if this was an inevitable outcome. Because that is not an option, Leliana should probably default to ‘softened’ in the case that she’s unhardened in DA:O.

The problem is that in all cases most of those ten-years Leliana has been stabity stabity. and while you may feel the warden helps leliana stay on the better path in origins, that does not mean she does, and even in origins her duplicity is hinted at and forshadowd multiple times. Then consider how a soldier changes after a single year of killing people, and its well recorded that they neve recoverr, or go back to how they were. How much more so for someone who kills constantly for almost a decade?

Bioware did a great job showing a realistic growth in Leliana after 10 years. If she was all flowers and bunnies, it would be so ridiculas and contrived, that people would wonder if Bioware was losing its touch.

As it is most people accept, and understand lelianas growth.

And Leliana is Biowares character and independent of the P.C, regardless of head-cannon.