While it's nice that your choices matter, I don't think Bioware intended for the players to have to look up the wikia or ask on forums about wtf just happened when they ended up with a psycho killer Leliana. I myself completely forgot about the Haven cutscenes until I read about it. There are many minor and major decisions in DA:I, and that one scene in Haven did not strike me as a particularly major decision at the time.
The intent is good, but the execution could have been better.
The reason Leliana is so ruthless in this game regardless of what happened to her in Origins is because of her experiences working as the Left Hand of the Divine. She's had to do some pretty ruthless stuff and that's what she's become. Hence, when Justinia says "I'm sorry. I failed you too." She's talking about the person she's turned Leliana into. People don't seem to pick up on this for some reason and that's why everyone feels she's become nasty "out of nowhere." But there is a reason for it.
If you don't like how Leliana turned out in your first playthrough, just play the game again. Or fix it when the Keep gets updated.
@Heidirs: Thanks for spelling it out. As many times as I've played the game, I was never really sure what they were talking about with that. I mean, I got the connection between her regrets and her present bitterness, but I never understood now the Divine felt responsible for that.
@Heidirs: Thanks for spelling it out. As many times as I've played the game, I was never really sure what they were talking about with that. I mean, I got the connection between her regrets and her present bitterness, but I never understood now the Divine felt responsible for that.
Glad I could help. It's weird because I've read a lot of comments of people not understanding that... so there's got to be some kind of connection that wasn't clear enough. But, then, I don't know how I was able to pick up on it. lol.
Leliana is a bard. That means she was a spy and at times an assassin. Even in Origins you can get her to fall back to her old ways. Fast forward ten years, she had to do many despicable actions for the Divine in her role as spymaster. Those actions have colored her outlook significantly since her time with the warden. I did not expect Leliana to be the same just like I did not expect Anders to be the same. Even Cullen has changed over all three games.
Leliana is a bard. That means she was a spy and at times an assassin. Even in Origins you can get her to fall back to her old ways. Fast forward ten years, she had to do many despicable actions for the Divine in her role as spymaster. Those actions have colored her outlook significantly since her time with the warden. I did not expect Leliana to be the same just like I did not expect Anders to be the same. Even Cullen has changed over all three games.
Leliana was no angel in Origins.
She was playing the Warden.
She just (depending on relationship with her) fell in love with her cover identity.
Leliana is a bard. That means she was a spy and at times an assassin. Even in Origins you can get her to fall back to her old ways. Fast forward ten years, she had to do many despicable actions for the Divine in her role as spymaster. Those actions have colored her outlook significantly since her time with the warden. I did not expect Leliana to be the same just like I did not expect Anders to be the same. Even Cullen has changed over all three games.
Very true
It's kinda funny how you all keep missing the point of this thread. It's not about how Leliana's questline ended (or rather can end), as it fits her overall characterization, it's about why it ended the way it did. Not because she was a bard, not because she was a spy or an assassin, or simply the overall hardships she experienced over the course of DA:O and DA:I - but because a person she didn't even know at the time didn't stop her from disposing of a traitor, which quite seriously doesn't even come close to some of the harder/crueler decisions she had to make. That's just bad writing and honestly diminishes her authenticity as a character, at least to me.
You should spoiler in the title or something.
I understood you and I support you. My main char in DAO fell in love with Morrigan and Leliana really didn't like that. So fun "Morrigan is a luck girl" - Leliana, " You spend much time with that bard" - Morrigan... XD Good time... I really miss this in DAI... But I have another char fell in love with Leliana and it's "sad" what she became. If the Warden died or prefer de Morrigan even Leliana fell in love with him this make sense, but your case don't. She doesn't have a reazon. But what is done is done. They won't change this. But a DLC bring the Warden and your romance back maybe you (your Warden) can bring old Leliana back. It's one ideia ;-)I was the partner of Leliana in Origins when i was the hero of Ferelden. I was a good hero, doing only the right thing and being helpful to everyone and all. Then i started Inquisition with my personal background of that save and my save in DA II (also being a good hero). I just played Inquisition being nothing but nice to Leliana and let her do all the right things and be helpful to people and doing the right thing morally speaking.
So i just finished her personal story (The Left Hand of the Divine) and she turned into a devil?! WTF. She killed that women in cold blood and the sneered at me when i told her to let it go. So i went and look it up on the internet, turns out i appartently missed a tiny little conversation back in Haven.
And it turns out, if you miss that one tiny conversation, she turns into a devil, acting bitchy and all during her personal quest. I didn't train her this way! Through the course of TWO games i let her be compassionate, helpfull, etc, etc. And just because of this one conversation everything else doesn't count?!?!?!? And then in the next sentence she says she BLAMES ME!!!!! I told you to NOT DO IT. I really dislike Leliana now. She was my love in Origins, and i cared for her as my advisor in Inquisition, but now i don't even care if she dies. She even takes someone hostage after talking to her again in Skyhold.This does not make any sence... Please change this, this doesn't feel correct/normal and it really bums me out.
I know that certain choices have an affect on people in Dragon Age, and i love the series for that, but this just feels to wrong. One tiny thing between all those awesome and good things, and she litteraly turns.
Leliana is a bard. That means she was a spy and at times an assassin. Even in Origins you can get her to fall back to her old ways. Fast forward ten years, she had to do many despicable actions for the Divine in her role as spymaster. Those actions have colored her outlook significantly since her time with the warden. I did not expect Leliana to be the same just like I did not expect Anders to be the same. Even Cullen has changed over all three games.
It's kinda funny how you all keep missing the point of this thread. It's not about how Leliana's questline ended (or rather can end), as it fits her overall characterization, it's about why it ended the way it did. Not because she was a bard, not because she was a spy or an assassin, or simply the overall hardships she experienced over the course of DA:O and DA:I - but because a person she didn't even know at the time didn't stop her from disposing of a traitor, which quite seriously doesn't even come close to some of the harder/crueler decisions she had to make. That's just bad writing and honestly diminishes her authenticity as a character, at least to me.
It makes perfect sense to me. Leliana has no reason but to go along the track she's going down. The Inquisitor can either interject and make her question her choices or not. Sometimes it's completely chance encounters that can change us. Yes, telling her not to dispose of the traitor seems small and insignificant and easy to miss. But that's life sometimes. I kind of like it. But I can see how it might irritate some players. especially since we usually expect gameplay to go down a certain path. My experience is most gamers don't like games to reflect life.
That said, I don't see why it's a big deal unless you're only planning on playing through the game once. It's an element of the game that was surprising and unexpected. I'd take it as a good thing. Games would be boring if they did exactly what we expected them to.
It makes perfect sense to me. Leliana has no reason but to go along the track she's going down. The Inquisitor can either interject and make her question her choices or not. Sometimes it's completely chance encounters that can change us. Yes, telling her not to dispose of the traitor seems small and insignificant and easy to miss. But that's life sometimes. I kind of like it. But I can see how it might irritate some players. especially since we usually expect gameplay to go down a certain path. My experience is most gamers don't like games to reflect life.
That said, I don't see why it's a big deal unless you're only planning on playing through the game once. It's an element of the game that was surprising and unexpected. I'd take it as a good thing. Games would be boring if they did exactly what we expected them to.
What about the other moments you can make her question her choices? Like when you tell her her people are not disaposable?
AFAIK this decision also counts. If you for instance save the traitor but tell her that the men are disposable she will go all stability on you. You have 3 chances to "soften" her, you must succeed at all 3 or you fail.
It makes perfect sense to me. Leliana has no reason but to go along the track she's going down. The Inquisitor can either interject and make her question her choices or not. Sometimes it's completely chance encounters that can change us. Yes, telling her not to dispose of the traitor seems small and insignificant and easy to miss. But that's life sometimes. I kind of like it. But I can see how it might irritate some players. especially since we usually expect gameplay to go down a certain path. My experience is most gamers don't like games to reflect life.
Ignoring the entirety of your interactions in favour of a EVIL toggle set in an arbitrary dialogue choice which has no impact until months later isn't realistic. It's incredibly mechanistic and gamey.
That said, I don't see why it's a big deal unless you're only planning on playing through the game once. It's an element of the game that was surprising and unexpected. I'd take it as a good thing. Games would be boring if they did exactly what we expected them to.
Firstly, my first playthrough matters to me. Having my Warden's life in that playthrough pretty much ruined because some Qunari Mercenary didn't decide to be a total hypocrite is a problem
Secondly, any replays are messed up because the game only leaves me with very limited options to play. Either my character has to be incredibly merciful despite slaughtering hundreds of people, or they have to be OK with their deranged murderous spymaster running amok.
AFAIK this decision also counts. If you for instance save the traitor but tell her that the men are disposable she will go all stability on you. You have 3 chances to "soften" her, you must succeed at all 3 or you fail.
I know. But it just doesn't make sense to me that if you don't make that first one that the other things you say to her have absolutely no effect, and in fact it leads her to pretty directly imply that you actually said the exact opposite. I would have been fine with a "Yes I know you feel that way, but I still think it's better to be ruthless." Instead she accuses my Inquisitor of things she never did.
Well you could see it as her referring exactly to that conversation, The way I see it, if you falter once you are being wishy washy about it. And "it" is not about judgments it's not about giving a right example in general it's about how you treat your people, so I don't see why the judgment or anything else should matter. Everything about Leliana is about how you treat your people.
Ignoring the entirety of your interactions in favour of a EVIL toggle set in an arbitrary dialogue choice which has no impact until months later isn't realistic. It's incredibly mechanistic and gamey.
You've never had something someone said to you that you didn't agree with at first sink in months later?
Firstly, my first playthrough matters to me. Having my Warden's life in that playthrough pretty much ruined because some Qunari Mercenary didn't decide to be a total hypocrite is a problem
Secondly, any replays are messed up because the game only leaves me with very limited options to play. Either my character has to be incredibly merciful despite slaughtering hundreds of people, or they have to be OK with their deranged murderous spymaster running amok.
So... it's not the replay that's the problem, you just feel that one choice has reflect two extreme roleplay options... can't really help you there.
What about the other moments you can make her question her choices? Like when you tell her her people are not disaposable? And all the times you give the "right" example by making non-ruthless decisions and judgments?
I think of it as a sometimes you need something pounded into your hear multiple times before you finally get it kind of thing.
I know. But it just doesn't make sense to me that if you don't make that first one that the other things you say to her have absolutely no effect, and in fact it leads her to pretty directly imply that you actually said the exact opposite. I would have been fine with a "Yes I know you feel that way, but I still think it's better to be ruthless." Instead she accuses my Inquisitor of things she never did.
I can understand how that part can be frustrating. Perhaps they didn't have to time to code/record a middle ground dialogue where she almost changes but just can't grasp it.
Well you could see it as her referring exactly to that conversation, The way I see it, if you falter once you are being wishy washy about it. And "it" is not about judgments it's not about giving a right example in general it's about how you treat your people, so I don't see why the judgment or anything else should matter. Everything about Leliana is about how you treat your people.
I can understand how that part can be frustrating. Perhaps they didn't have to time to code/record a middle ground dialogue where she almost changes but just can't grasp it.
You've never had something someone said to you that you didn't agree with at first sink in months later?
So... it's not the replay that's the problem, you just feel that one choice has reflect two extreme roleplay options... can't really help you there.
I'm not sure what you mean. Referring to which conversation? The one where I told her that people were not expendable? Or the one where I didn't tell her to kill someone? Or the one where I told her not to kill the sister?
Either one of them, or all of them, depends on your course of action
And what do you mean by "how you treat you people"? Like if the inquisitor was friends with people? If she was merciful to the wardens? Supported the soldiers at Adamant? Because I did all that and Leliana still accused my Inquisitor of being ruthless.
I mean "do you see those who serve you as tools for your cause?". Wardens are not your people, mages/templars are not your people, not when you make the choice. The soldiers at Adamant should have counted, choosing to kill Celene at the cost of your soldiers also should have counted, these are omissions.
I mean "do you see those who serve you as tools for your cause?". Wardens are not your people, mages/templars are not your people, not when you make the choice. The soldiers at Adamant should have counted, choosing to kill Celene at the cost of your soldiers also should have counted, these are omissions.
No. And even if somehow I did, I wouldn't toss every other thing that person said aside to fixate on that one remark when they were a near stranger.
Well, for one thing, it's multiple remarks that gets Leliana to change. For another, it would seem the Inquisitor and her come friends by the end of it, and I would imagine that friendship has an impact.
The replay is one problem. Subsequent playthroughs can't make up for the first one.
I'm confused by this since I can find some replays of games better than the first... but everyone's different, I guess.
Why is that question particularly relevant? Natalie isn't one of Leliana's people, or one of your people.
Because it is that question that is important to Leliana. Natalie is not one of your people, no, but Leliana is, it's not about Natalie at that point, you are using Leliana there. Does this confuses you? I'll try to explain better if it is so
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