139 réponses à ce sujet

[SpiritMuse]

Either one of them, or all of them, depends on your course of action
 
 I mean "do you see those who serve you as tools for your cause?".  Wardens are not your people, mages/templars are not your people, not when you make the choice. The soldiers at Adamant should have counted, choosing to kill Celene at the cost of your soldiers also should have counted, these are omissions.

I'm sorry, I really don't follow you. You said Leliana directly refers to one conversation? which one then? And how can she directly refer to it when she says I did the opposite of what I actually did? And how does "how you treat your people" affect Leliana directly? Only the specific conversations do, right?

[Wulfram]

Well, for one thing, it's multiple remarks that gets Leliana to change. For another, it would seem the Inquisitor and her come friends by the end of it, and I would imagine that friendship has an impact.

She changes either way.

And if their supposed friendship matters, then their whole relationship should count, not just one arbitrary moment before they even met each other.  And a 10 year relationship with the Warden should count, rather than being exactly the same as if she was killed.

 

 

Because it is that question that is important to Leliana. Natalie is not one of your people, no, but Leliana is, it's not about Natalie at that point, you are using Leliana there. Does this confuses you? I'll try to explain better if it is so

 

Yes, I'm confused.  I'm not "using" Leliana there.

edit:  I mean, in the 3 relevant occasions, in one the Inquisitor doesn't outrank her, in another there's just a conversation and in the final the Inquisitor's only real role is saying "please don't murder this priestess for basically no reason".

[Heidirs]

She changes either way.

 

My understanding is that she's hardened to begin with and the Inquisitor change her through those certain dialogues. Or not change her, thus leaving her in the hardened state she's already in.

 

And if their supposed friendship matters, then their whole relationship should count, not just one arbitrary moment before they even met each other.  And a 10 year relationship with the Warden should count, rather than being exactly the same as if she was killed.

 

I don't see it as one arbitrary moment, but three specific moments when the Inquisitor directly challenges the way Leliana runs things - which she has become very proficient at. She has no reason to believe she's doing anything wrong and every reason to believe she's doing everything right. The Inquisitor challenges that belief, which must be jarring to her regardless of whether or not she shows it. Those moments grow more in impact, I imagine, because of the friendship that's formed. 

 

As for her and the Warden, I do wonder how much of an impact that relationship has on her over the past decade. Yes, they've remained faithful to each other, but how often are they actually together? She's the left hand of the Divine and he's off doing Warden-y things. It would seem that Justinia's influence would have the opportunity for more of an impact. The Warden may not even be aware of the exact details of everything Leliana has been asked to do or how ruthless she's become. She may have even hidden some things from him, knowing that he might entirely agree with it or just because she didn't want him to be concerned for her while he has other things to be doing.

[ThreeF]

I'm sorry, I really don't follow you. You said Leliana directly refers to one conversation? which one then? And how can she directly refer to it when she says I did the opposite of what I actually did?

I said that you can see it as such. What she says fits any of those 3 cases.

 

 

And how does "how you treat your people" affect Leliana directly? Only the specific conversations do, right?

 

Yes, I'm confused.  I'm not "using" Leliana there.

 

 

Ok, I'll try to explain:

 

First of all the key here is Justinia who used Leliana as a tool, which in turn led Leliana to convince herself that this is how things are done, that people, herself included, are to be used as tools for greater good or whatever. This is clear, is it not?

 

The first opportunity to undo this is with the traitor, since the traitor is a tool his life does not matter, even more so since this tool didn't functioned properly. You stopping Leliana here tells her that his life matters. It doesn't matter that you have no authority at this point because your act tells Leliana who you are as a person and makes her reflect her own views on this matter, especially obvious if you go "if you dislike doing something, there is something wrong with what you are about to do" line.

 

Second opportunity comes after Haven, I think this one is more obvious. You outright tell her that your people matter to you. Another crack to her "people are tools" conviction.

 

Third and final opportunity comes with the sister. If you tell Leliana to kill her, you are essentially telling her "Leliana you are my tool, do what must be done". It's not about saving sister's life it's about telling Leliana that she is not a tool what matters here.

 

Adamant soldiers and Winter Palace imo also should have counted here, the first didn't probably because the devs were afraid that many would not find all soldiers, and the second probably because it would constrict the epilogue significantly.

 

Still confusing?

[Wulfram]

My understanding is that she's hardened to begin with and the Inquisitor change her through those certain dialogues. Or not change her, thus leaving her in the hardened state she's already in.

 
She's hardened to begin with, but she's not a deranged murderer.
 

I don't see it as one arbitrary moment, but three specific moments when the Inquisitor directly challenges the way Leliana runs things - which she has become very proficient at. She has no reason to believe she's doing anything wrong and every reason to believe she's doing everything right. The Inquisitor challenges that belief, which must be jarring to her regardless of whether or not she shows it. Those moments grow more in impact, I imagine, because of the friendship that's formed.

 
But if this one arbitrary moment doesn't go precisely to plan, this friendship is too insignificant for her to pay any attention to the rest of the Inquisitor's actions, or for her to listen to her supposed friends pleas in the actual moment. All that matters is that one conversation.
 

As for her and the Warden, I do wonder how much of an impact that relationship has on her over the past decade. Yes, they've remained faithful to each other, but how often are they actually together? She's the left hand of the Divine and he's off doing Warden-y things. It would seem that Justinia's influence would have the opportunity for more of an impact. The Warden may not even be aware of the exact details of everything Leliana has been asked to do or how ruthless she's become. She may have even hidden some things from him, knowing that he might entirely agree with it or just because she didn't want him to be concerned for her while he has other things to be doing.

Well, Leliana always talks about it like it's a long lasting, strong relationship
 

Third and final opportunity comes with the sister. If you tell Leliana to kill her, you are essentially telling her "Leliana you are my tool, do what must be done". It's not about saving sister's life it's about telling Leliana that she is not a tool what matters here.

But it absolutely is about saving the sister's life here. That's why I'm telling her not to kill her. If she thinks she's my tool, why is she ignoring me?

[ThreeF]

 
She's hardened to begin with, but she's not a deranged murderer.

 

Not just hardened,  that is not what is important, what is important is the "why".

 

 
But if this one arbitrary moment doesn't go precisely to plan, this friendship is too insignificant for her to pay any attention to the rest of the Inquisitor's actions, or for her to listen to her supposed friends pleas in the actual moment. All that matters is that one conversation.

It's not about friendship, like at all. Didn't you ever hear a total stranger telling you something that just "clicked"? Ever? She is not listening to a friend, she has her doubts and something you say resonates. This is why this alone is not enough.

 

 

 
But it absolutely is about saving the sister's life here. That's why I'm telling her not to kill her. If she thinks she's my tool, why is she ignoring me?

Because it's not about you, it's about her believes, if you fail to convince her, then what you say does not matter any longer, you are not trying to convince her that she is (not) your tool, you are trying to convince her that she is (not) a tool. In a great scheme of things, what you want do not matter.

[Isaidlunch]

I wouldn't have minded it if ruthless Leliana wasn't so hammy. It could have been really interesting development for her but it's hard to take it seriously when she starts acting like a Sith Lord e.g. kidnapping children and bragging about how ruthless she is.

[Wulfram]

Not just hardened,  that is not what is important, what is important is the "why".
 
It's not about friendship, like at all. Didn't you ever hear a total stranger telling you something that just "clicked"? Ever? She is not listening to a friend, she has her doubts and something you say resonates. This is why this alone is not enough.

My issue isn't with that moment, it's with the whole rest of the game (and indeed DAO too) that is tossed on the bonfire in favour of that one moment.
 

Because it's not about you, it's about her believes, if you fail to convince her, then what you say does not matter any longer, you are not trying to convince her that she is (not) your tool, you are trying to convince her that she is (not) a tool. In a great scheme of things, you do not matter.

I'm not trying to convince her of anything about herself, I'm trying to convince her not to murder a basically innocent person, a scenario that has not come up previously in our dealings.  I'm dealing with her as a person, not like she's a robot with an "EVIL" mode that sets irrevocably to "on" if you say the wrong word.

[ThreeF]

I'm not trying to convince her of anything about herself, I'm trying to convince her not to murder a basically innocent person, a scenario that has not come up previously in our dealings.  I'm dealing with her as a person, not like she's a robot with an "EVIL" mode that sets irrevocably to "on" if you say the wrong word.

Again you may have this motive, but it's not important, that's not how she sees it. Even if you tell her to kill that person and she does it, she does it not because you told her to but because you telling her this  made her arrive to certain decisions about her believes. Your motives do not matter.

[tesla21]

It was a perfect chance to differentiate between origins hardened/not Leliana but I guess it would be too much work considering the amount of screen time she has in the game

[tesla21]

Sorry for the double post :S

[Finw]

How are the life things?! Morrigan pleasant and sociable, and Leiliana cruel and distant!

[Shadow Fox]

It makes perfect sense to me. Leliana has no reason but to go along the track she's going down. The Inquisitor can either interject and make her question her choices or not. Sometimes it's completely chance encounters that can change us. Yes, telling her not to dispose of the traitor seems small and insignificant and easy to miss. But that's life sometimes. I kind of like it. But I can see how it might irritate some players. especially since we usually expect gameplay to go down a certain path. My experience is most gamers don't like games to reflect life.

 

That said, I don't see why it's a big deal unless you're only planning on playing through the game once. It's an element of the game that was surprising and unexpected. I'd take it as a good thing. Games would be boring if they did exactly what we expected them to.

It probably helps that the Inquisitor is the only one willing to call her out on her actions to her face.

 

Everyone else is scared of her.

[Shadow Fox]

Leliana is one of my favourite characters and I think her evolution was handled very well. I think it could have gone without the player's 'input' though since that just makes her seem freakishly sensitive to suggestion. Like do not start swinging a shiny object hypnotically in her general area.

 

But anyone whose saying she became some monster out of nowhere isn't paying attention. Or is paying selective attention. The ruthless streak has always been there, the lady who loves outplaying people in the game has always been there. But, more importantly, her idealistic core remains true no matter how hardened she becomes. The reforms that she implements are proof of that. It just becomes a kind of ruthless idealism. She becomes the ultimate 'big picture' kind of idealist.

Agreed except:

 

No she is far from "looking at the big picture" because she ethier doesn't factor in how people will react to the changes she is trying to implement to the system or she simply doesn't care and just murders who ever disagrees with her.

 

Cassandra and Vivienne look at the big picture Leliana's an extremist with massive blinders for mages.

[(Disgusted noise.)]

Leliana was crazy in Origins and she's still crazy in Inquisition. I'm not sure why people were surprised.

[aeoncs]

I don't see it as one arbitrary moment, but three specific moments when the Inquisitor directly challenges the way Leliana runs things

 

This is where you're wrong though. On the first two occasions the PC isn't the Inquisitor, but "only" the Herald. They don't outrank Leliana, nor do they have the direct power to challenge her actions/decisions. There are so many more important and significant choices throughout the game that should have affected Leliana way more on a personal level, especially considering that she actually had a notable relationship with the Inquisitor later on. All those moments don't count.

It can basically be like this: You can appeal to Leliana's good nature throughout the entire game, make her question or even challenge (at least later on) her often ruthless attitude, set a good example by showing her that it's possible to succeed by taking the high road and just generally be a good friend... and it simply doesn't matter because of that one time you didn't stop her, completely disregarding the fact that you hadn't even talked to her tête-à-tête, not even once, at that time. She will still, quite literally, blame you for the things she had to do, even if you did nothing but appeal to the good in her in all the time you actually knew her.

Equally, you can be a complete mofo all game, tell her to slit throats and treat her like sh*t and she will still turn into this gentle flower (beware the exaggerated sarcasm) if you said the 'right' thing on two occasions, despite not knowing her at all on the first, and barely on the second.

If this isn't the epitome of gamey-logic and the complete opposite of realistic and believable character development, I don't know what is.

[SpiritMuse]

You can appeal to Leliana's good nature throughout the entire game, make her question or even challenge (at least later on) her often ruthless attitude, set a good example by showing her that it's possible to succeed by taking the high road and just generally be a good friend... and it simply doesn't matter because of that one time you didn't stop her, completely disregarding the fact that you hadn't even talked to her tête-à-tête, not even once, at that time.
She will still, quite literally, blame you for the things she had to do, even if you did nothing but appeal to the good in her in all the time you actually knew her.
If this isn't the epitome of gamey-logic and the complete opposite of realistic and believable character development, I don't know what is.

Exactly. It should have been more like how you can gain the respect of the Arishok in DA2: multiple opportunities to do so, and you don't need to take all of them as long as you take enough to make a difference. And even if you didn't take enough to completely convince her it would be nice to have her acknowledge that you tried. Like for example 4/5 is enough to convince her, and 3/5 gets you "I know you disagree, but I still think this is necessary."

[erikdlan]

I dislike the way this decission was implemented. In game we have another situation that depends on several questions around the game: choosing which woman will be the next Divine. I think it would be much better that Leli's unhardening had used the same way of being implemented, with a hidden score depending on several factors, dialogues, quest decissions and wartable choices. The Warden should count here too imo because the world state registers if Leliana was hardened or not in Origins. A romanced Leliana surely knows what the Hero thinks about niceness and knives.

 

Adamant soldiers and Winter Palace imo also should have counted here, the first didn't probably because the devs were afraid that many would not find all soldiers, and the second probably because it would constrict the epilogue significantly.

 

What about risking the life of Leliana's agents in Josie's personal quest instead of choosing a peaceful way to solve it? Or telling Leliana that the best way to deal with a minstrel that spreads ill rumors is cutting the bard's tongue? There are quite a few ruthless options that involve ordering your Spy Master to do the dirty job. Just like Divine Justinia did.

 

I'm not asking a fix or something like that. It's not the moment to change it, but I think giving constructive feedback could make for better future games.

[ThreeF]

What about risking the life of Leliana's agents in Josie's personal quest instead of choosing a peaceful way to solve it? Or telling Leliana that the best way to deal with a minstrel that spreads ill rumors is cutting the bard's tongue? There are quite a few ruthless options that involve ordering your Spy Master to do the dirty job. Just like Divine Justinia did.

Generally I would say that WT missions were treated as something separate as a whole, so it's not just Leliana's quest that have it as a hole.  The problem with them is that there are way too many of them and most are optional.

[erikdlan]

Generally I would say that WT missions were treated as something separate as a whole, so it's not just Leliana's quest that have it as a hole.  The problem with them is that there are way too many of them and most are optional.

Good point, but they are in game interactions with Leliana, and some of them are questionable options or quite nasty things. I don't think every WT operation with Leliana involved should count, but some of them claim to be related with the unhardening question. You can choose every dialogue option to get a soft Leli result, while asking her to cut tongues, kill people and do other nasty things in the WT. I don't think it makes much sense, because in my mind that's what Divine Justinia did. She had Cassandra as her military counselor, the Divine did herself most of the diplomatic labours and the Left Hand did the dirty jobs.

 

I work in software development so I see this things in terms of programming logic and variables. It could have been done with a hidden score or variable, a softening variable, that could go up or down according to the kind of things already mentioned. An untaken option in the WT would have lesser meaning in the final score, a numeric 0 influence. In the climax of Leliana's personal quest you check the value of the variable, with a high enough value you get a soft Leli and she doesn't kill her former friend, with a lower value she decides to accept her dark side. Of course it would be a matter of discussion which WT or in game choices should count and how much weight should they have, deciding the weight of the options and the critical softening value woudn't be a trivial thing.

 

It wouldn't be a perfect simulation. It would have as side effect that having a soft Leli in an espionage based Inquistion would be harder. But it would be a better simulation in my opinion to show the influence your Inquisitor could have on Leliana's behaviour than just three dialogue options.

[ThreeF]

Of course it would be a matter of discussion which WT or in game choices should count and how much weight should they have, deciding the weight of the options and the critical softening value woudn't be a trivial thing.

Yes but if the divine choice quest is any indication I think that it is questionable if all this would work, especially because of the fact that decision should have been made about what has more weight and what not. In other words it could have made things better, but it also could have made things much worse.

[erikdlan]

Yeah, and making things more complex in programming logic makes code more vulnerable to potential bugs. A good general principle for software is KISS, as in keep it simple, stupid. But sometimes simplicity is not a good enough simulation, and in my opinion they ignored things that should have been taken into account.

 

You mentioned the soldiers in Adamant and the whole letting Celene die scene but I feel there's more to it: a romanced Warden's opinion, the most extreme WT options, etc. That's why I think a more complex simulation, not very different from the Divine choice, would be more fitting. Just those dialogues seem a little bit random in my mind and disconnected from the rest of the in game interactions.

[Boost32]

Leliana is a mess, she is the worst spymaster ever, she disobey yours orders and blames you for something she did.
I wish I could fire her.

[Heidirs]

This is where you're wrong though. On the first two occasions the PC isn't the Inquisitor, but "only" the Herald. They don't outrank Leliana, nor do they have the direct power to challenge her actions/decisions. There are so many more important and significant choices throughout the game that should have affected Leliana way more on a personal level, especially considering that she actually had a notable relationship with the Inquisitor later on. All those moments don't count.

 

I don't think being Herald gives you any less weight with Leliana than being Inquisitor. Leliana is very devout. I'm sure she sees you as truly being sent by the Maker. In your very first conversation with her in Haven she says "you speak for the Maker, what do you have to say about all of this." You can refute that you speak for the Maker in that instance, but I doubt she truly believes you. And, as Cassandra says when you are made Inquisitor, it's really just a formality. You've been leading the Inquisition from the start, regardless of having an actual title. I'm sure Leliana recognizes that.  Therefore what you have to say matters to her, even if she disagrees with it.

 

The thing is, even if you are a really good friend to Leliana by the time it gets to Natalie, if the only questioning of her methods happens in that moment, she disagrees with you and kills her. It takes a few more instances of you questioning her - along with the building friendship - for her to listen to you. If you only question her in that moment, or two out of the four or whatnot, it's not enough for the message to sink in.

 

 

It can basically be like this: You can appeal to Leliana's good nature throughout the entire game, make her question or even challenge (at least later on) her often ruthless attitude, set a good example by showing her that it's possible to succeed by taking the high road and just generally be a good friend... and it simply doesn't matter because of that one time you didn't stop her, completely disregarding the fact that you hadn't even talked to her tête-à-tête, not even once, at that time. She will still, quite literally, blame you for the things she had to do, even if you did nothing but appeal to the good in her in all the time you actually knew her.

Equally, you can be a complete mofo all game, tell her to slit throats and treat her like sh*t and she will still turn into this gentle flower (beware the exaggerated sarcasm) if you said the 'right' thing on two occasions, despite not knowing her at all on the first, and barely on the second.

If this isn't the epitome of gamey-logic and the complete opposite of realistic and believable character development, I don't know what is.

 

I've said before, I'm sure the developers would have liked to make Leliana's responses to be a little more dynamic - maybe she has different dialogue if you only get half way. Maybe she questions your choice if you've been in a kill spree all game but are telling her not to before she actually listens to you. I assume they just ran out of time. Ultimately, she does or not accept your request not to kill Natalie. The reasons in between it all can use a little filling in, but as that wasn't given, sometimes the player has to apply a little imagination.

[Boost32]

The thing is, even if you are a really good friend to Leliana by the time it gets to Natalie, if the only questioning of her methods happens in that moment, she disagrees with you and kills her. It takes a few more instances of you questioning her - along with the building friendship - for her to listen to you. If you only question her in that moment, or two out of the four or whatnot, it's not enough for the message to sink in.

There its no message, she disobeyed a direct order from her superior, it was not a request, she didn't even thought how this could harm the Inquisition reputation. And you cant do nothing to punish her reckless act.