You mentioned the soldiers in Adamant and the whole letting Celene die scene but I feel there's more to it: a romanced Warden's opinion.....
Well my first reaction to it was that yes it should have been there, but on the other hand it got me thinking... I'm actually not a big supporter of "love cures all" which makes this whole option highly subjective, because the bottom line would be "what kind of romance Warden had with Leliana", makes things extremely complex.
I was the partner of Leliana in Origins when i was the hero of Ferelden. I was a good hero, doing only the right thing and being helpful to everyone and all. Then i started Inquisition with my personal background of that save and my save in DA II (also being a good hero). I just played Inquisition being nothing but nice to Leliana and let her do all the right things and be helpful to people and doing the right thing morally speaking.
So i just finished her personal story (The Left Hand of the Divine) and she turned into a devil?! WTF. She killed that women in cold blood and the sneered at me when i told her to let it go. So i went and look it up on the internet, turns out i appartently missed a tiny little conversation back in Haven.
And it turns out, if you miss that one tiny conversation, she turns into a devil, acting bitchy and all during her personal quest. I didn't train her this way! Through the course of TWO games i let her be compassionate, helpfull, etc, etc. And just because of this one conversation everything else doesn't count?!?!?!? And then in the next sentence she says she BLAMES ME!!!!! I told you to NOT DO IT. I really dislike Leliana now. She was my love in Origins, and i cared for her as my advisor in Inquisition, but now i don't even care if she dies. She even takes someone hostage after talking to her again in Skyhold.This does not make any sence... Please change this, this doesn't feel correct/normal and it really bums me out.
I know that certain choices have an affect on people in Dragon Age, and i love the series for that, but this just feels to wrong. One tiny thing between all those awesome and good things, and she litteraly turns.
Sorry - as much as I like Leliana (one of my favourite characters in DA:O), she does have a ton of issues (one of them is her faith and unquestioning loyalty to the chantry and the divine - which******* her up as she has a consciousness which she has to ignore as part of her job (she says so herself)) I think it's quite in character for her to become a resentful person or really really cold (emotionally)!
At least if you don't help her through that - which you didn't, if you didn't talk to her often IMHO!
greetings LAX
Well my first reaction to it was that yes it should have been there, but on the other hand it got me thinking... I'm actually not a big supporter of "love cures all" which makes this whole option highly subjective, because the bottom line would be "what kind of romance Warden had with Leliana", makes things extremely complex.
My idea was not exactly "love cures all". A romanced Leliana seems to have been deeply touched by her love story with the Warden. Yeah, the Warden is far away or even death, but it seems quite strange in my mind that the Inquisitor's opinions has more influence on her than her lover opinions.
Yes, maybe I'm making things too complicated, but the way it's done is just too simplistic for me. It doesn't fit with many things that, in my opinion, should have mattered.
My idea was not exactly "love cures all". A romanced Leliana seems to have been deeply touched by her love story with the Warden. Yeah, the Warden is far away or even death, but it seems quite strange in my mind that the Inquisitor's opinions has more influence on her than her lover opinions.
And this is the thing about it. Inquisitor influences her not because he/she is important but because of a timing.
You have a point there. The Inquisitor has the opportunity to influence her, because he/she is there in the right place at the right moment. The Warden is not, but it's possible to get the HoF letter before doing the Left Hand of the Divine. That letter has no influence on the hardening question. Why not? Ok, it's just a letter, but still...
I think there are too many things that should have made this question a bit more complex. The intentions work for me, the implementation does not work for me at all.
You have a point there. The Inquisitor has the opportunity to influence her, because he/she is there in the right place at the right moment. The Warden is not, but it's possible to get the HoF letter before doing the Left Hand of the Divine. That letter has no influence on the hardening question. Why not? Ok, it's just a letter, but still...
Why should it? Or a better question in the grand scheme of things would it matter? Which bring us back to "what kind of romance Warden had with Leliana" and "love cures all"
The quest has its flaws but I'm not sure whenever making it more complex would be for the best at the end of the day, or rather for it to work better other things would need to be taken into consideration and those tings are not necessary a more complex point system and the inclusion of more side decisions.
Why should it? Or a better question in the grand scheme of things would it matter? Which bring us back to "what kind of romance Warden had with Leliana" and "love cures all"
The quest has it's flaws but I'm not sure whenever making it more complex would be for the best at the end of the day, or rather for it to work better other things would need to be taken into consideration and those tings are not necessary a more complex point system and the inclusion of more side decisions.
I would have liked a more complex system. I think the way they implemented the choice is too simplistic and in my opinion it does not fit with some other narrative choices you can take in other quests, or even in DAO, and I think it does not fit with some other interactions with Leliana, such as some of the WT operations. But, yep it could have been worse, because more complex means more vulnerable to bugs and more questionable design choices.
We don't agree here, but thanks for the discussion anyway, ThreeF.
I would have liked a more complex system. I think the way they implemented the choice is too simplistic and in my opinion it does not fit with some other narrative choices you can take in other quests, or even in DAO, and I think it does not fit with some other interactions with Leliana, such as some of the WT operations.
I do think it would have been interesting to have a points system, like with disapproval and approval.
I agree on the second conversation, but the first one? Definitely not. How can the decision of someone she has known for literally 10 minutes have any kind of impact on her? I mean, I could have lived with it if you were to be "punished" later on for pushing Leliana to kill the traitor, but getting the same result for staying quiet (rightfully so, because the Inquisitor has no idea what's going on) is just complete and utter BS and horrible writing.
Nevertheless, I agree that more choices should have effected the outcome instead of just two, one of which is totally random.
Well, you DO know something: she wants to kill a person. You also know that he betrayed her in some way. And from your previous conversation, you may also be able to deduce that she was a believer, and now her faith is crumbling. Not much, I admit, but enough to decide whether you want to act or not.
If you consider that muerdering a person is wrong, no matter why, you wouldn't remain silent or encourage her to do it. You would act.
If you consider that it is a justified death, you probably shouldn't have many problems with her future decission of taking hostages (to prevent a dishonest grand cleric from becoming divine) or killing cultists (to avoid chaos).
If you want extra information on the issue before deciding, you would also stop her (at least at the beginning).
Plus, the first decission is marked as an "important" one with the orange halo.
I screwed it in the second conversation, and I admit I didn't expect it to have much importance (I think it didn't have that orange halo of "importance XD). But now, I see that it makes sense for her to become more pragmatic.
Anyway, I still think that a couple of extra dialogues would have been nice to make it more believable.
Leliana was crazy in Origins and she's still crazy in Inquisition. I'm not sure why people were surprised.
I disagree,
If you're talking about her messages from the Maker then there is an easily missed bit of dialogue where she explains that.
She looks at flowers and clouds and sometimes likes to imagine that they are messages from the Maker to her...
BUT she does NOT believe they really are - she just like to pretend they are.
which makes her fanciful, not crazy.
I have been replaying the first scene to get a clearer impression of what happened and how it works.
In the scene you hear that one of her agents has turned traitor, murdered her top agent and knows the identities of many of her remaining agents so poses a threat to them. She wants the traitor killed quickly and efficiently to minimise the risk to her remaining agents.
Note -there is no option to question the traitor's guilt or call for a trial. The verdict of guilt is fixed - you can only influence the sentencing
your options
1) accept that you have no authority or accept you don't really know the details of the situation or accept that Leiliana probably knows what she's doing and do nothing.
2) Declare that all traitors must die
3) Object and call for the traitor's life to be spared. Leiliana responds by objecting to you challenging her authority and ability which gives further options
3a) tell her she's a rubbish spymaster 3b) say she's mistaken in this case or 3c) suggest there are more practical options than killing
Leiliana will object to the way you are putting the life of a single enemy ahead of the dozens of loyal agents who could end up dead as a result .
You get more options where you can say that the inquisition should be strict pacifists and never ever kill anyone (and then spend the rest of the game killing) or use your authority as leader of the inquisition despite not being the leader and having no authority.
If you pick option 1), 2) or 3c) Leiliana is irredeemably hardened and likely to kill anyone who opposes her regardless of whether they are threatening any lives or not.
3c) is on the bad path because to soften her you have to tell her that killing is morally wrong and that the lives of her agents are not important enough to justify killing an enemy to protect them.
Just went through this quest a moment ago for the second time, and am wondering if the changes seen in this session were made possible by altering choices in earlier dialogue, and on choices made on the War Table during the course of the game.
My first Inquisitor was of a noble heart, but as a Carta trained Dwarf, he made some choices more befitting one experienced with that background. This time, as more of a less confrontational Mage, he was able to convince Leliana to spare her former friend, and allowed her to forgive herself for past actions.
Rather good to see that choices matter.
Don't forget that it's ten years after Origins... Leliana is older now with experiences, as the Left hand of the Divine, that may have marred her character... killing changes you inside.
Don't forget that it's ten years after Origins... Leliana is older now with experiences, as the Left hand of the Divine, that may have marred her character... killing changes you inside.
Well if we're talking about what charracters are the true phycos? Sera takes the cake all the way. If you do all her missions and LET her kill people.. HOLY CRAP!!
She acts like a 7 year old wanna-be mobster in some sceenes lolz
Edit: Not complaining or anything. I think it's awsome that the charracters are all soo different for the most part.
What strikes as odd is not even that but that Leliana romancing The Warden seem to think romantic love is cheap.
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