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Bioware fails at writing convincing Monarchs or Queens.


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#51
Ieldra

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So you know what knowledge that Bioware writers possess? You know how much knowledge about monarchs I know or many of the others from N-America on this forum. I believe that most if not all writers research their material to bring them up to speed. But keep on insulting people you know absolutely very little about.

They should do their research, but all too often I have the impression they don't. Either that, or they simply don't care about making their characters' actions seem plausible. DA has been comparably good in that regard, if still mediocre by the standards of written fiction, but I could post epic rants about ME. 

 

Assuming that they did their research, I think they should stop using the kind of dramatic license you see in TV shows. if you take part in a story as a player, such things are far less forgiveable than if you watch them as a passive observer. Being forced to take part in stupidity "because you must" is one of the persistent failings of CRPGs. Having said that, I noticed they put more thought into some of the plot elements in DAI than they did in the previous games, so things are improving.  


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#52
In Exile

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They should do their research, but all too often I have the impression they don't. Either that, or they simply don't care about making their characters' actions seem plausible. DA has been comparably good in that regard, if still mediocre by the standards of written fiction, but I could post epic rants about ME.

Assuming that they did their research, I think they should stop using the kind of dramatic license you see in TV shows. if you take part in a story as a player, such things are far less forgiveable than if you watch them as a passive observer. Being forced to take part in stupidity "because you must" is one of the persistent failings of CRPGs. Having said that, I noticed they put more thought into some of the plot elements in DAI than they did in the previous games, so things are improving.


Games can't avoid forcing you into stuff unless they abandoned all pretense of simulation.

#53
atlantico

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Because our entire system of governance is predicated on there being a monarch. 

 

Now that's something which might actually insult Canadians. 



#54
Bayonet Hipshot

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Well, Charles Dance sure has some experience with portraying an intimidating lord. :)

 

Charles Dance is voice acting Emperor Emhyr of Nilfgaard in Witcher 3 so you will your taste of powerful King figure in Witcher 3. 



#55
agonis

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Well, I never met a monarch before. I had a prince as a patient once, but he seemed pretty normal to me.

 

They are people. Of course if you have been raised as a chinese emperor things would be different but the kings in dragon age are hardly that. Gaspard for example is a warrior. He cannot be very uppity because his soldiers wouldn´t understand and follow him.



#56
Vox Draco

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The Arishok. That's your monarch. The fact that he eschewed the title is beside the point. He behaves in exactly the fashion that you want.

 

Sitting around arrogantly in a foreign city behaving like he owns it and doing mostly nothing until he runs bloody amok due to an old silly book and loses his head... indeed, he acts so stupid he is on par with many incest-deranged monarchs ^^

 

"Some people say I'm mad, and say the word "penguin" after each sentence. But I believe that we two can make Britain great, with you as the Prince Regent, and I as King Penguin." King George III



#57
Giantdeathrobot

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Because the queen sometimes drops by? 

 

 

Because the Queen is our head of state. Technically, we know as much about royalty as any random joe in the United Kingdoms.

 

And anyway, this thread basically says ''why can't every King be Foltest?''. Well, because every king wasn't Foltest? Historically, ther were warrior kings and poet kings, weak kings and strong kings, beloved kings and hated kings, pious kings and kings who kicked out holy orders, wise kings and mad kings, young kings and old kings, the list goes on forever. There were also quite a few queens, not that you would remember it looking at most of fantasy. There is no concrete mold for what a ''true king'' is at all. Looking at the line of any dynasty in Europe immediately dispels the notion that kings like Foltest were the norm.

 

Hell if anything, The Witcher kinda lacks variety regarding monarchs IMO. They're all middle-aged men who are bigger or lesser assholes, more or less racists, and more or less prone to conquering stuff. Stennis, Demavend, Foltest, Henselt, the Emperor, and Radovid all fit into a rough mold, that's pretty boring to me. I'd rather have some shrewd rulers like Anora and Bhelen, some warlike ones like Gaspard and the Arishok, some weak ones like Cailan, Dumar and Harrowmount, and Alistair is kinda hard to classify anywhere but he probably kickstarted Ferelden's cheese industry so he's got that going for him.


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#58
In Exile

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Now that's something which might actually insult Canadians.


No. It's a literally true description of the legal system. If we were to change our head of state we'd have to change all of our institutions. It would be superficial in a lot of ways but not always.
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#59
atlantico

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Because the Queen is our head of state. Technically, we know as much about royalty as any random joe in the United Kingdoms.

 

Oh man, you don't want to make that comparison.



#60
tmp7704

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Hell if anything, The Witcher kinda lacks variety regarding monarchs IMO. They're all middle-aged men who are bigger or lesser assholes, more or less racists, and more or less prone to conquering stuff. Stennis, Demavend, Foltest, Henselt, the Emperor, and Radovid all fit into a rough mold, that's pretty boring to me.

It's actually ongoing theme in the Witcher books, one the characters bring up every now and then -- with maybe exception of the southern empire monarch, the kings are generally short-sighted, incompetent bickering fools and the real masterminds that run things are their magical advisors, usually sorcerers who coordinate in their own league.

#61
Emperor Iaius I

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Nature vs nurture argument. She basically grew up treated as royalty and pretty much never really knew any other life afaict. So she acts like one, easily, and is as "real" royalty as any other.

 

That's certainly a position you can take, sure. But according to medieval theory and custom, it's blood that counts. Actually, it may not even be medieval: it was similar in classical antiquity as well. Some of the earliest prose novels in history feature highborn Greeks raised in obscure circumstances rising to prominence because blood always tells. You could easily argue that's not the way the world actually works (see the Nature vs. nuture argument famously put out in "Trading Places" after all), but that's the way the theory of nobility worked: blood mattered.

 

There were cultures that differed, of course. At the same time that those Greek novels were coming out, the Romans were putting out the nuture argument: that it was a person's education and experiences that mattered just as much as their bloodline did (the Romans didn't go so far as to dismiss the importance of aristocracy, since the Senate was pretty aristocratic).

 

As far as Thedas goes, I think it's certainly fair to say that they believe that blood counts. Tevinter is obsessed with bloodlines, Orlais is ruled by the Drakons and Valmonts who have common dynastic traits, and Ferelden holds great stock in the line of Calenhad.

 

So you could argue that Anora, raised to be a future queen, acts every inch the queen. I would say that you're right. But as far as Thedas goes, birth still matters -- and by those standards, she's not someone born into royalty. She married a title.
 


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#62
Guest_Lathrim_*

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That's certainly a position you can take, sure. But according to medieval theory and custom, it's blood that counts. Actually, it may not even be medieval: it was similar in classical antiquity as well. Some of the earliest prose novels in history feature highborn Greeks raised in obscure circumstances rising to prominence because blood always tells. You could easily argue that's not the way the world actually works (see the Nature vs. nuture argument famously put out in "Trading Places" after all), but that's the way the theory of nobility worked: blood mattered.

 

There were cultures that differed, of course. At the same time that those Greek novels were coming out, the Romans were putting out the nuture argument: that it was a person's education and experiences that mattered just as much as their bloodline did (the Romans didn't go so far as to dismiss the importance of aristocracy, since the Senate was pretty aristocratic).

 

As far as Thedas goes, I think it's certainly fair to say that they believe that blood counts. Tevinter is obsessed with bloodlines, Orlais is ruled by the Drakons and Valmonts who have common dynastic traits, and Ferelden holds great stock in the line of Calenhad.

 

So you could argue that Anora, raised to be a future queen, acts every inch the queen. I would say that you're right. But as far as Thedas goes, birth still matters -- and by those standards, she's not someone born into royalty. She married a title.
 

 

That is expressed throughout Origins as well, if my memory serves correctly. Arl Eamon praised Anora's competence and still stated Alistair, due to his blood, would be the more legitimate ruler of the two.



#63
X Equestris

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That is expressed throughout Origins as well, if my memory serves correctly. Arl Eamon praised Anora's competence and still stated Alistair, due to his blood, would be the more legitimate ruler of the two,


Yep. As I recall, there were even people who believed that the lack of an heir was punishment from the Maker for having a "commoner" as queen, so blood definitely matters.
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#64
Andrew Lucas

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I see that everyone is a writer these days lol

#65
Giantdeathrobot

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It's actually ongoing theme in the Witcher books, one the characters bring up every now and then -- with maybe exception of the southern empire monarch, the kings are generally short-sighted, incompetent bickering fools and the real masterminds that run things are their magical advisors, usually sorcerers who coordinate in their own league.

 

True, but it doesn't make the kings themselves any less boring and samey, save perhaps from Foltest's YOLO rampage in Witcher 2's prologue which was entertaining. Not that the advisors look less like a bunch of fools in Witcher 2, mind, it seemed like they were in a competition to each be more arrogant, slimy and ineffectual than the next. Dethmold and Sile in particular were grievous offenders, as well as Sabrina's brilliant idea of calling down an undiscriminating rain of fire in a furious melee.

 

Not to say that leaders and rulers in Dragon Age are much smarter, mind you, but at least there's more variety.



#66
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I don't think medieval monarchs are quite as monolithic as you make them out to be.  There were weak ones, strong ones, engaged ones, distracted ones, expansionists, isolationists, smart ones, idiots, and so on.  As it turns out, medeival monarchs are human beings too and encompass all the variety you might expect. 

 

I do agree with you that feudalism seems largely irrelevant in this game.  Almost nobody does convincing feudalism in fantasy (books or games).  It's too foreign of a mindset for most modern people, especially in the west.  We are too mobile (both socially and geographically) and too steeped in natural rights.  The concept that a human being "belongs" to the land and the intense religiosity and hierarchy that dominated how medieval people defined the world just sort of fries modern people's brains.  


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#67
SNascimento

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Well, it's not everybody that can be Bernard Cornwell. 



#68
Jestina

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That's one of things that bugs me in this kind of game. There's a lot of the trappings of a feudalistic middle ages society but the characters are walking around spouting modern ideology.



#69
SNascimento

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That's one of things that bugs me in this kind of game. There's a lot of the trappings of a feudalistic middle ages society but the characters are walking around spouting modern ideology.

Yep, that's something I noticed as well. Dragon Age has very modern elements to it. I remember in a keep there were a couple of soldiers being trained and the guy in charge was behaving just like a modern day sargent: "give me fifty!". 



#70
katokires

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Bioware fails at writing.

 

Fixed.



#71
katokires

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That's one of things that bugs me in this kind of game. There's a lot of the trappings of a feudalistic middle ages society but the characters are walking around spouting modern ideology.

It is because they want the easy way out to connect to the public.

They are bad writers, really. They suck up everything that is popular or popularish and create a version inside their stories but they are also so coward they refuse to go far from our reality using modern ideologies and our most basic christian myths... They even compared elves to the jews if I'm not mistaken... the whole were imortal before the fall and stuff like that, being enslaved and so on... then Jesus came... you know right? I would not be surprised if the orb of corypheus was the "apple of Eden"... they suck, really, in this I swear I'm not putting by bitterness, they really suck



#72
Akka le Vil

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In fact I was dumbfounded how such characters could end in a position of power in the first place.

 

Inheritance.

That's kinda the entire principle of the whole system.
 



#73
Kali073

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There's no one way for kings or queens the behave to be a "real" king or queen. Monarchs are people just like you or me (even if their subjects believe they're "special"), they can be idiots and fools as much as the next person. You can't expect them all to be the way you described OP.



#74
Aimi

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That's one of things that bugs me in this kind of game. There's a lot of the trappings of a feudalistic middle ages society but the characters are walking around spouting modern ideology.


Not...really? None of the "modern ideology" in the game is intrinsically implausible; the only thing I can think of is possibly the relatively less rigid gender roles, but that's easily attributable to Andraste's existence (and in fact Gaider has made this explicit comparison on several occasions).

In fact, most ideological and political stuff about Thedas isn't terribly hard to imagine. Most countries are monarchies with large landholding aristocracies; some have an unclear smattering of freeholders; republicanism is essentially invisible except for arguably Antiva's and Tevinter's collegiate aristocratic infighting. Essentially all politics are corporate, that is to say they are conducted on the basis of group membership and group action, and they take essentially no notice of the individual. Political institutions, insofar as they exist, are easily traceable to historical ones, such as the Tevinter Senate (clear analogy with Rome, although the bicameralism connects to medieval estate concepts) and the Fereldan Landsmeet (a glorified Frankish army assembly). Justice exists, but is scattershot and easy to subvert. There are no concepts of universal sapient rights save perhaps those advanced by the Chantry, which also makes sense because the Chantry is the only organization with an interest in universality.

All of these things 'work' by medieval European analogy.

Ideologically, the only thing that stands out as totally alien is the Qun, which is predicated on a sort of "collectivism as opposed to individualism" ideological dichotomy that is very bizarre for anything before the nineteenth century. It relies on a level of state and bureaucratic control that is technologically implausible. But that hasn't been the main thrust of complaints in this thread.

It seems like a lot of people are harping on the issue of "freedom", especially "freedom for the elves" and "freedom for the mages". It might be a little basic to point out, but freedom is not a new concept. Going by some of the comments in this thread, freaking Harmodios and Aristogeiton would be anachronistic for their own time. That oppressed groups wish to secure more community rights is nothing new. And the crucial sticking point - that they are viewed as community rights, rather than universal or individual rights - is quintessentially appropriate for the time period. The related issue, of southern Thedas' antipathy to slavery, is also a decent representation of the difference between eastern and western Europe around 1000; where there were few slaves in the West, largely a result of religious pressure, Constantinople was a massive slave clearinghouse, trading flesh from the Rus' and viking lands to the Muslim khilafat in the south.

In fact, I would say the opposite from you. Where you view the trappings of the setting as "feudalistic" (ugh), I view the setting's trappings as decidedly more modern. The entire Orlesian aesthetic, for instance, is basically seventeenth-century Versailles run amok. A lot of Inquisition's clothing and armor look similarly anachronistic. The ultra-monetized economy is a late nineteenth century artifact, decidedly unmedieval. Then again, some aspects of the setting look "medieval Europe" when they really oughtn't based on other elements of the setting (fortress design is probably my biggest complaint).

I don't think it's an exaggeration to say that I'm kind of the obnoxious queen of historical analogy and plausibility on the BioWare forum, but even I would have to say that ideologically there is very little to scoff at in Dragon Age's southern kingdoms.
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#75
keesio74

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Bioware's monarch are basically Disney monarchs lacking charisma

 

This can't be further than the truth. Many of Bioware's monarchs are incredibly flawed vs the noble regals you see in Disney.