88 replies to this topic

[Obadiah]

Meredith invokes the Right of Annulment on all mages in the Kirkwall Circle because of the actions of Anders, a mage who is not in the Circle. I know Meredith is crazy and under the influence, but do people see a legitimate reason to side with the Templars here? Because I just can't see it.

Maybe for the sake of Kirkwall stability so that the population doesn't lynch all mages, or break down into a civil war?

[Kantr]

She was made paranoid by the red lyrium. Although Orsino was a bad first enchanter, resorting to blood magic..

[Ellyria]

If I remember correctly, Hawke can say something along the lines of "Mages are protecting themselves and the Templars are trying to protect the people of Kirkwall. All we can do now is try and keep casualties to a minimum" when Merrill raises objection to siding with the Templars.

 

I'll have to agree with Sebastian though, when he says both sides are terrible. Most of the time I side with the Templars because they will try to protect the citizens, and Hawke is their Champion.

[Obadiah]

Yeah, but the Templars are trying to protect the people of Kirkwall by proactively executing a bunch of mages who haven't done anything. Though I guess the argument could be made that the mages allowed blood magic to be secretly practiced in the Circle.

Is that what the Right of Annulment is for? To destroy a Circle that has become too corrupt? I kind of wish we had seen more of that during the game rather than these mage extremists.

[Edit]
Heh, I just realised that aside from Bethany those are the only types of mages from the Circle that Hawke encounters.

[MissScarletTanager]

I always thought that blood magic wasn't being necessarily practiced openly in the circle. The bit about Orsino at the end always felt like a last ditch, panicked effort. Kind of like failing to resist a demon in the Harrowing, Orsino gave in to panic and turned into a monster. I always sided with the mages, and when Orsino uses blood magic and transforms, he attacks the party and his fellow mages instead of storming outside the Circle and attacking the Templars. You'd think that, if he was some seasoned maleficar, he'd be able to control his monstrous form or at the very least know to run outside to the waiting Templars BEFORE doing it.

[LD Little Dragon]

Remember those apprentices that Bethany liked teaching in the Circle?  They are all Circle mages.

 

It's really hard to roleplay anything but the most rabid anti-mage Hawke as siding with the tempalrs in the end when the right of annulment means Hawke's signing on with the templars to kill every mage in the Circle, including those children and Bethany.

[Ellyria]

Considering the only thing you fight when siding with the Templars are blood mages and demons, it's not like Hawke was going into every bedroom and slaughtering children like Anakin Skywalker. You're given multiple chances during the attack on the circle to offer surrender or try to resolve the situation without slaughtering everyone. Hawke is not a Templar even if you spec as one and side with them, it's not like she has to follow the rite down to a T like Meredith commands all Templars to do. We wouldn't have options to try and reign in the chaos otherwise. If you side with the Mages, do you think the other Templars (not Meredith, she's too far gone) would listen to you when you suggest that this doesn't have to be a blood bath and anyone who surrenders shouldn't have a sword run through their head?

 

I know, I know, some people can't rationalize siding with the Templars because all we've seen is those poor, oppressed mages since DAO, even though DA2 tried to show us that mages can be just as terrible and makes some of the Templars justified. I've only made one world state with a rabid, anti-mage Warden/Hawke, yet most of my other, reasonable Warden/Hawkes side with the Templars.

[God]

I think a lot of it was poor writing.

 

You're right, really, it's rather difficult to find a truly rational way to side with the Templars beyond wanting to keep the people of Kirkwall safe.

 

And I think this is because BW not only forced a hamfisted situation where you HAVE to pick one side over the other (which I'm not totally against), but because BW themselves made the philosophy of the game very heavily pro-mage.

 

Sometimes, BW games are too idealistic to a fault.

[Obadiah]

I'm playing through the ending now for only the 2nd time. Orsino just offered Meredith to surrender, and help her search the Circle for blood mages, on the condition that she just not execute them all. She says "no" with the rationale that the people of Kirkwall will demand justice, and she will give it to them. I am finding her position very difficult to identify with.

[LD Little Dragon]

Considering the only thing you fight when siding with the Templars are blood mages and demons, it's not like Hawke was going into every bedroom and slaughtering children like Anakin Skywalker. You're given multiple chances during the attack on the circle to offer surrender or try to resolve the situation without slaughtering everyone. Hawke is not a Templar even if you spec as one and side with them, it's not like she has to follow the rite down to a T like Meredith commands all Templars to do. We wouldn't have options to try and reign in the chaos otherwise. If you side with the Mages, do you think the other Templars (not Meredith, she's too far gone) would listen to you when you suggest that this doesn't have to be a blood bath and anyone who surrenders shouldn't have a sword run through their head?

 

I know, I know, some people can't rationalize siding with the Templars because all we've seen is those poor, oppressed mages since DAO, even though DA2 tried to show us that mages can be just as terrible and makes some of the Templars justified. I've only made one world state with a rabid, anti-mage Warden/Hawke, yet most of my other, reasonable Warden/Hawkes side with the Templars.

 

I suppose you could roleplay a Hawke who thinks their Champion title will make the templars play nice and only partially annul the Circle. To be fair, the game does let Hawke be that special little snowflake who can spare some mages even when the lore says otherwise.

 

Although, it is bad writing when you have to metagame to know that siding with the templars, contrary to Meredith's statement, won't actually end up killing every mage in the Circle.  Hawke could be a firm supporter of the Circle system, and would still be likely to hesitate at siding with the templars when they condemn the Circle mages for something non-Ciricle mages did. 

 

The least Bioware should have done is have Circle mages be involved in, or take advantage of, the Chantry explosion.  It would have made the choice to side with the templars much more tempting if Orsino had pulled his crazy-ass blood mage act as soon as Meredith started ranting or if the mages started rebelling before their lives were threatened.

[Obadiah]

The Right of Annulment can be invoked, but I suppose it doesn't have to be executed. This sounds like the only reason I could side with the Templars - on the assumption that I could get them to not carry it out. It still puts Hawke in the position of hunting mages to kill them, thus making them desperate enough to turn to demons and blood magic.

[dragonflight288]

She was made paranoid by the red lyrium. Although Orsino was a bad first enchanter, resorting to blood magic..

 

Neither of which is known by Hawke at the time, and Meredith doesn't even try to appeal to blood magic being the reason for Annulment. She outright says that magic destroyed the Chantry and the people will demand blood. 

 

Her argument is to give into the mob. Orsino's argument is that the Circle wasn't even involved at the time the choice was being made. 

[teh DRUMPf!!]

 Grace went full Uldred (possessed by a Pride Demon), so the reasoning is the same as it would be to annul the Fereldan Circle in DA:O, that other mages may also be corrupted. Now, I believe the blame is more on the Templars for that than anyone else, but leaving possessed mages alive and putting the others at high risk of possession is not a mercy to them. Better they are killed than to let those threats out and kill even more people outside the Circle.

[dragonflight288]

 Grace went full Uldred (possessed by a Pride Demon), so the reasoning is the same as it would be to annul the Fereldan Circle in DA:O, that other mages may also be corrupted. Now, I believe the blame is more on the Templars for that than anyone else, but leaving possessed mages alive and putting the others at high risk of possession is not a mercy to them. Better they are killed than to let those threats out and kill even more people outside the Circle.

 

Shame Meredith never actually says that when wanting you to support her. Nor does she bring up abominations at all. Or even blood magic. 

[teh DRUMPf!!]

Shame Meredith never actually says that when wanting you to support her. Nor does she bring up abominations at all. Or even blood magic. 

 

Meredith does say something to the effect of: you've seen yourself the deep corrruption within the Circle (I remember that line because her VA rolls her tongue when pronouncing the "rr" part of "corruption"). Which Hawke has. Orsino himself admitted that if the mages and rogue Templars were guilty of what Meredith suspected of them (which we would later find they were), then she would have all the reason she would have needed to invoke the RoA.

[dragonflight288]

Meredith does say something to the effect of: you've seen yourself the deep corrruption within the Circle (I remember that line because her VA rolls her tongue when pronouncing the "rr" part of "corruption"). Which Hawke has. Orsino himself admitted that if the mages and rogue Templars were guilty of what Meredith suspected of them (which we would later find they were), then she would have all the reason she would have needed to invoke the RoA.

 

But at the time the choice itself was presented, her reasons for calling it were not that, it was because she wanted to appease the mob for the actions of an apostate. 

 

Her stated reason is "magic has destroyed the Chantry, the people will demand blood. I will give it to them."

[teh DRUMPf!!]

 That was just one reason among several others she had for wanting to invoke the 'Rite. Now, Meredith could have reasonably investigated that which she was suspecting and dealt with it appropriately by accepting Orsino's surrender. Of course, if Meredith were a fair-minded individual, we would not have gotten there in the first place, so she used the mob as an excuse to reject his surrender but still go forward with the RoA as she clearly wanted.

 

 

And because she stands in the way of reasonable compromise, the only way to address the issue of corruption is to accept her terms.

[dragonflight288]

 That was just one reason among several others she had for wanting to invoke the 'Rite. Now, Meredith could have reasonably investigated that which she was suspecting and dealt with it appropriately by accepting Orsino's surrender. Of course, if Meredith were a fair-minded individual, we would not have gotten there in the first place, so she used the mob as an excuse to reject his surrender but still go forward with the RoA as she clearly wanted.

 

 

And because she stands in the way of reasonable compromise, the only way to address the issue of corruption is to accept her terms.

 

Elthina denied it, so Meredith sought to go to Justinia. Kerran, if he survives past Act 1 says so. The devs have also said that she wasn't justified. Heck, a Hawke who supports the mages, his very codex is given by a templar who also says Meredith wasn't justified.

 

Whether you support the templars or not for your own reasons, by supporting annulment you are also supporting the death of every single man, woman and child in the Circle, and I'll need more evidence that the mages and templars who survived joining Thrask's rebellion against Meredith (the ones who didn't fight on the wounded coast) are also corrupt to support legalized genocide.

 

Now, had Meredith locked down the Gallows now that she did have the authority, hold a public trial and execution of Anders and searched the tower with her new authority with Elthina and the revered mothers dead, I would have supported her in a heartbeat. 

 

I simply cannot support her when she calls for genocide before she has evidence that the corruption is still there. Because then you can no longer tell if the blood mages you fight were always blood mages or only became them because it was kill or be killed desperation and they literally had nothing to lose. 

[Obadiah]

Well, yes, I agree, but I'd like to do a playthrough where I do support the Templars (just cuz), and having a mindset that "The Circle is Lost" due to corruption seems like the way for me to do that.

[teh DRUMPf!!]

Elthina denied it, so Meredith sought to go to Justinia. Kerran, if he survives past Act 1 says so. The devs have also said that she wasn't justified. Heck, a Hawke who supports the mages, his very codex is given by a templar who also says Meredith wasn't justified.

 

Whether you support the templars or not for your own reasons, by supporting annulment you are also supporting the death of every single man, woman and child in the Circle, and I'll need more evidence that the mages and templars who survived joining Thrask's rebellion against Meredith (the ones who didn't fight on the wounded coast) are also corrupt to support legalized genocide.

 

Now, had Meredith locked down the Gallows now that she did have the authority, hold a public trial and execution of Anders and searched the tower with her new authority with Elthina and the revered mothers dead, I would have supported her in a heartbeat. 

 

I simply cannot support her when she calls for genocide before she has evidence that the corruption is still there. Because then you can no longer tell if the blood mages you fight were always blood mages or only became them because it was kill or be killed desperation and they literally had nothing to lose. 

 

Well I was not arguing Meredith was really justified. I thought pointing out that she is not fair-minded enough to accept Orsino's surrender would make that clear.

 

To say nothing of the red lyrium that infected her mind and drove her to that extreme in the first place.

 

The problem with getting "more evidence" about whether or not the mages who were part of that whole affair were corrupted is that you cannot tell just by looking at them, and if they are, you will likely only find out when it's too late -- at which point, all of those same men, women, and children are in danger along with men, women, and children outside of the Circle. And even if you do side with the mages, you find that there are Circle inhabitants (not even strictly the mages) who are under the influence of demons and have to be put down.

[thesuperdarkone2]

Meredith already planned on performing an annulment on the Gallows at the start of Act 3. Karras outright says this. Meredith always planned on killing all the mages and is a self-proclaimed mage hater. Anders finally gave her the excuse she needed. Only mage-haters would ever side with Meredith.

[dragonflight288]

Meredith already planned on performing an annulment on the Gallows at the start of Act 3. Karras outright says this. Meredith always planned on killing all the mages and is a self-proclaimed mage hater. Anders finally gave her the excuse she needed. Only mage-haters would ever side with Meredith.

 

Not quite.

 

I once sided with her for the xbox achievements. 

[dragonflight288]

Well I was not arguing Meredith was really justified. I thought pointing out that she is not fair-minded enough to accept Orsino's surrender would make that clear.

 

To say nothing of the red lyrium that infected her mind and drove her to that extreme in the first place.

 

The problem with getting "more evidence" about whether or not the mages who were part of that whole affair were corrupted is that you cannot tell just by looking at them, and if they are, you will likely only find out when it's too late -- at which point, all of those same men, women, and children are in danger along with men, women, and children outside of the Circle. And even if you do side with the mages, you find that there are Circle inhabitants (not even strictly the mages) who are under the influence of demons and have to be put down.

 

Which is why I said if she locked down the Circle and used her new found authority to search the Gallows to gather evidence then I would've supported her in a heatbeat.

 

I don't discount the affect red lyrium had on her mind. Heck, on my first playthrough before it was revealed she had the idol, I thought she was a good character who felt so strongly and was so passionate about protecting others from the dangers of magic that she was willing to go to any length to keep the bad mages from harming others. On my first playthrough, and even to this day, one of my biggest problems is not that she called for the Annulment, but, even before she got the idol, is the type of people she promoted and how much power and little oversight they also had. 

 

First Act, Alrik, Kerras and such are two of her Knight-Lieutenants. Cullen's own codex entry says he was made Knight-Captain because his views of magic matched her own, despite the fact that at the time he would have only been a templar for 2-3 years without much experience in the field. In the Second Act, we find out about Alrik and all the illegal tranquil. Thing is, in the mage origin story we know that in order for someone to be made tranquil you need the signature of both the First Enchanter and the Knight-Commander so if there are more and more tranquil in the Gallows, all Meredith would need to do is check the records and know about the illegal tranquilizations, and a brief crack down of her own men would have outed Alrik regardless of his attempts to keep it from her as we know from the note in Act 1. We also find out that three of the Starkhaven mages are either executed or tranquilized at random as an example and not really having anything to do with what they actually did. In Act 3, Ser Mettin, one of her Knight-Lieutenants leads a Templar Death Squad killing non-mages in broad daylight. The templars are also working to kick Aveline out of the office so they can consolidate even more power for themselves. 

 

I guess that overall the point is that it's not just Meredith, but also the kind of people she was promoting even before she got the idol. As far back as Act 1, Thrask says Kerras is one of Meredith's cronies, and if the mages hadn't surrendered before he even showed up, Meredith would consider him justified in starting a blood bath. I don't think I can call Meredith the most reasonable or level headed person, even before she got the idol. 

[Obadiah]

I suppose one could try bring in the "weight" of deaths at the Chantry into the decision. Mage kills sisters, mothers, and worshippers in the Chantry, so an equivalent number of mages must die for... vengeance or justice. Anders did have contacts (and probably some secret support) from some in the Circle.

I would hate to be a Loyalist in the Kirkwall Circle. Do everything to conform, and then get executed as some sort of collective punishment because of what an extremist did. Ugh.

[dragonflight288]

I suppose one could try bring in the "weight" of deaths at the Chantry into the decision. Mage kills sisters, mothers, and worshippers in the Chantry, so an equivalent number of mages must die for... vengeance or justice. Anders did have contacts (and probably some secret support) from some in the Circle.

I would hate to be a Loyalist in the Kirkwall Circle. Do everything to conform, and then get executed as some sort of collective punishment because of what an extremist did. Ugh.

 

And that's precisely why a lot of gamers oppose Annulment. They see no justice at all in punishing a whole group of people for a crime none of them even committed.