88 réponses à ce sujet

[Bethgael]

Did it once.

 

The only reason I could justify was that 1. Carver was a Templar in this playthrough, I'd spent a lot of energy getting him to 100% FRIENDSHIP before he ran off--and my Hawke actually didn't want to fight her brother, and 2. As stated above, apparently siding with the Templars meant my Hawke could at least attempt to minimise deaths among the mages (and as luck would have it, you do get to do just that--watching Cullen turn on Meredith to agree with Hawke to save mages that surrender? Worth it. It was like watching the boy finally wake up, poor oblivious lyrium-addled lad that he was...). She also didn't kill Anders (they were in a rivalmance). Made him see what he'd wrought.

 

Now, that was more justice than letting him martyr himself because he didn't want to face what he'd started.

 

Also, I think my Hawke picked up that the "O." in the letters/books from the Circle during the murder of her mother might have been Orsino. Also, she'd been on the mages' side most of the time, so Orsino had said he wasn't cracking down on blood magic because it'd give Meredith too much ammunition. She was a mage, but... yeah.

 

Yeah. I had to twist the headcanon a lot to make it work. :-/

[Bethgael]

........Cullen's own codex entry says he was made Knight-Captain because his views of magic matched her own, despite the fact that at the time he would have only been a templar for 2-3 years without much experience in the field....

 

despite.... and more like, probably because. He is so green (and still traumatised by the events of DA:O, and therefore also still very angry) that she'd be aware he wouldn't question her more... sideways.... behaviour. It's not until Act 3 that he starts to wonder about her.

He even says in DA:I that he never thought to question her. A more experienced Templar would have.

[Cyrus Amell]

In my opinion, there is really no justification for siding with Meredith. She is a terrible Knight-Commander, certainly she would not have reached the rank had it not been quickly earned through an impromptu battlefield promotion after her predecessor got stringed up by the fledgling Kirkwall army. Lets review why siding with her made no sense at all:

 

1. She was not 10 feet away from Anders when he blew up the Chantry and explained why he had done it, to the clear dismay of Orsino. So she decides to finally call in the Right of Annulment to avenge the Grand Cleric. And if you side with her, the first thing she does is walk away from the man who, loudly and for all to hear, admitted doing the deed so she can go off and kill those who are not even responsible. Honestly, Anders should not have even been able to utter  three words before Meredith tried to choke him to death (after bursting a blood vessel with rage).

 

2. The Circle is not just a gussied up prison, they provide massive wealth to the Chantry through enchanting services and ready cadres of battlemages for whenever the Qunari invade or an Exalted March is declared. In short, they are a cornerstone of the Church's power but Knight Commander Meredith acts like it can be easily discarded (and so close to Qunari and Tevinter lands no less). That she pushed this issue to such extremes not only signifies her madness from the Red Lyrium but also a very flawed set of logic.

 

3. Just like Orsino's last-second reveal of a reason to kill him (hiding Quentin, the man who killed your mother), the best reason to side with Meredith (becoming Viscount of the city) is simply tossed out after the deed was done. Just the barest hint of such a reward might have at least justified a ruthless Hawke's approach.

 

Quite honestly, I don't think I could bring myself to kill the mages and side with an army of visored psychopaths, especially with such a paranoid idiot leading them.

[Obadiah]

I think a good reform for the Right of Annulment would be this: invoking it shows is an admission that the Templars have failed to protect Mages (since they have to execute them after all), and thus a Knight Commander that requests it must be executed along with the Circle. Sort of like an act of seppuku.

[dragonflight288]

I think a good reform for the Right of Annulment would be this: invoking it shows is an admission that the Templars have failed to protect Mages (since they have to execute them after all), and thus a Knight Commander that requests it must be executed along with the Circle. Sort of like an act of seppuku.

 

That would be interesting. Highly doubt the templars or the Chantry would ever go for that idea though. 

[sjsharp2011]

Considering the only thing you fight when siding with the Templars are blood mages and demons, it's not like Hawke was going into every bedroom and slaughtering children like Anakin Skywalker. You're given multiple chances during the attack on the circle to offer surrender or try to resolve the situation without slaughtering everyone. Hawke is not a Templar even if you spec as one and side with them, it's not like she has to follow the rite down to a T like Meredith commands all Templars to do. We wouldn't have options to try and reign in the chaos otherwise. If you side with the Mages, do you think the other Templars (not Meredith, she's too far gone) would listen to you when you suggest that this doesn't have to be a blood bath and anyone who surrenders shouldn't have a sword run through their head?
 
I know, I know, some people can't rationalize siding with the Templars because all we've seen is those poor, oppressed mages since DAO, even though DA2 tried to show us that mages can be just as terrible and makes some of the Templars justified. I've only made one world state with a rabid, anti-mage Warden/Hawke, yet most of my other, reasonable Warden/Hawkes side with the Templars.

I agree I offered the option of surremndering to those that were willing. Mostly because as a person myself I would only kill if I had no other option. But really after what they did to Carver I decided then pretty much that things were starting to get out of control and that the smart thing to do was to support Meredith in this instance even though I was a mage I wasn't playing as a Blood mage though as I chose the Spirit and force power trees as my specializations. I think Meredith had the right idea but she was too aggressive in her application of it in the end.

[dragonflight288]

Did you guys know that Gaider said that any mage spared was made tranquil since the purpose of an annulment is to get rid of ALL the mages?

[Ellyria]

Did you guys know that Gaider said that any mage spared was made tranquil since the purpose of an annulment is to get rid of ALL the mages?

 

I remember him saying something along the lines that usually mages that surrender during any Rite of Annulment are made tranquil, but a) it didn't happen in DAO b ) Hawke doesn't know that and c) Meredith was proven batty at the end so it's possible that Cullen didn't go through with "Tranquil ALL the surrendering mages"?

[sjsharp2011]

I agree Cullemn seemed like a good guy so I doubt he'd have tranquiled them unless they give him a reason too besides he saw what happened to Meredith so would have known that Meredith had been compromised effectively leaving him in charge of the situation anyway.

[Obadiah]

If Hawke sided with the Templars, does it say in DAI what happened to the mages that surrendered in Kirkwall?

Spoiler

Guessing Leliana as Divine cured any Tranquil.

[thesuperdarkone2]

If Hawke sided with the Templars, does it say in DAI what happened to the mages that surrendered in Kirkwall?

Spoiler

Guessing Leliana as Divine cured any Tranquil.

The implication is that they were killed anyway since there is no spare mages option in the Keep if you sided with the Templars, along with the Kirkwall Templars starting to use red lyrium and trying to kill Hawke. Seems like Bioware is saying siding with the Templars in DA2 was the wrong choice.

[thesuperdarkone2]

I suppose one could try bring in the "weight" of deaths at the Chantry into the decision. Mage kills sisters, mothers, and worshippers in the Chantry, so an equivalent number of mages must die for... vengeance or justice. Anders did have contacts (and probably some secret support) from some in the Circle.

I would hate to be a Loyalist in the Kirkwall Circle. Do everything to conform, and then get executed as some sort of collective punishment because of what an extremist did. Ugh.

Gaider outright said that Anders had no help at all from the Circles. Thus, the Circle is completely innocent in any involvement or helping Anders.

[Boost32]

Did you guys know that Gaider said that any mage spared was made tranquil since the purpose of an annulment is to get rid of ALL the mages?

No he didnt say that, he said normally thay are but the ROA in Kirkwall was not a normal one, they werent turned into tranquil.

The implication is that they were killed anyway since there is no spare mages option in the Keep if you sided with the Templars, along with the Kirkwall Templars starting to use red lyrium and trying to kill Hawke. Seems like Bioware is saying siding with the Templars in DA2 was the wrong choice.

Some mages survived, if Bethany was a Circle Mage, Varric will say she is somewere in the Free marches helping the survivors of the Kirkwall Circle, even if you sided with the templars. And there is the mages from Solas' quest, they came from Kirkwall.

[Obadiah]

I've never sided with Meredith before at the beginning of Act 3. I did this time, and she gives some interesting dialog when giving "Best Served Cold" quest instead of Orsino. Still doesn't completely justify her position at the end, but it does enlighten her character somewhat.

[Edit]
Also, at the climax the extremist seem to be Meredith (annullment) and Anders (all mages free), with Orsino, along with Templar and Circle mages who favor better treatment, stuck in the middle.

[KaiserShep]

You're given multiple chances during the attack on the circle to offer surrender or try to resolve the situation without slaughtering everyone.

 

The idea of sparing those that surrender doesn't serve well as a factor in making the decision between helping the mages and helping the Templars, because you simply do not know that you can do this at the time. When you have to decide, it's help them, or kill them all. You have nothing to indicate that the Templars won't just systematically slaughter them all regardless of any objections on Hawke's part. And in Bethany's case, it comes down to the meta-gaming assumption that she won't automatically die unless you permit it, which of course I was unaware of, because I didn't care to take that chance.

[Obadiah]

Well, I picked the Templars with the mindset that, after the destruction of the Chantry, the circle had to be purged in order to maintain stability in Kirkwall. I hoped to be able temper the Right of Annulment. Luckily, even Cullen was voicing doubts about executing the Rite... so Hawke was able spare some mages that surrendered.

That ending was unexpectedly epic.

[thesuperdarkone2]

Well, I picked the Templars with the mindset that, after the destruction of the Chantry, the circle had to be purged in order to maintain stability in Kirkwall. I hoped to be able temper the Right of Annulment. Luckily, even Cullen was voicing doubts about executing the Rite... so Hawke was able spare some mages that surrendered.

That ending was unexpectedly epic.

And then the Kirkwall Templars start using red lyrium and try to kill Hawke. Fail.

[Boost32]

And then the Kirkwall Templars start using red lyrium and try to kill Hawke. Fail.

We both know its bad wiriting by BioWare, I have a screenshot of your post where you admit it =P
And Hawke still the Viscount of Kirkwall, so its not a fail.

[Lulupab]

We both know its bad wiriting by BioWare, I have a screenshot of your post where you admit it =P
And Hawke still the Viscount of Kirkwall, so its not a fail.

 

Its a bad writing because it makes zero sense for Hawke to side with Templars. It was a boon for Templar fans and that sort of writing was the only way to fix it.

[Obadiah]

The choice seems to have supposed to have been one between a moral imperative of justice and freedom in siding with the mages, and one of a harsh ruthless practicality in maintaining stability in siding with the Templars. That's pretty much the way my Hawke justified siding with the Templars in game after the choice was made.

As depicted at the time of the choice, though, it just seemed like one between moderation and fairness, Orsino, and extremism, Meredith, who seemed more like she was giving in to some secret desire. Too bad. Siding with the Templars would have made more sense if a riot had started as soon as the Chantry was destroyed, with Kirkwall citizens storming the Gallows or something, and some sort of ****ed up appeasement was necessary lest Hawke end up killing half the citizenry to defend the mages.

Here's hoping Bioware takes another stab at giving players difficult choices in the future.

[teh DRUMPf!!]

Well, I picked the Templars with the mindset that, after the destruction of the Chantry, the circle had to be purged in order to maintain stability in Kirkwall. I hoped to be able temper the Right of Annulment. Luckily, even Cullen was voicing doubts about executing the Rite... so Hawke was able spare some mages that surrendered.

That ending was unexpectedly epic.

 

Templars bowing the knee to Hawke (a mage, no less, in my case) was an epic moment, indeed.

[SgtSteel91]

The choice seems to have supposed to have been one between a moral imperative of justice and freedom in siding with the mages, and one of a harsh ruthless practicality in maintaining stability in siding with the Templars. That's pretty much the way my Hawke justified siding with the Templars in game after the choice was made.

As depicted at the time of the choice, though, it just seemed like one between moderation and fairness, Orsino, and extremism, Meredith, who seemed more like she was giving in to some secret desire. Too bad. Siding with the Templars would have made more sense if a riot had started as soon as the Chantry was destroyed, with Kirkwall citizens storming the Gallows or something, and some sort of ****ed up appeasement was necessary lest Hawke end up killing half the citizenry to defend the mages.

Here's hoping Bioware takes another stab at giving players difficult choices in the future.

 

If Bethany or Carver were a part of the Circle, then add whether Hawke had the nerve to fight against their sibling.

 

For my Hawke, Bethany was a Circle Mage so he went all Nier, refusing to help Meredith and made sure no one would hurt their sister, damn the consequences. That and they ended up agreeing with Anders, even though they killed him at the end. All in all, my reasoning is similar to the codex entry on the Champion of Kirkwall in Inquisition with the Templar taking about why Hawke would side with the Mages.

[Obadiah]

When I found out that Anders could be rivaled into joining the Templars at the end, I just had to try it! Its a bit plot-disjointed to have an apostate Hawke dragging Anders and Carver, his newly assertive Grey Warden brother, to enact the Right of Annulment on the Kirkwall Circle, but it did have some interesting dialog.

One of the truly weird developments: Templars bowing to Hawke, and his terrorist abomination companion.

Spoiler

[Pokemario]

I only help the templars when:

1. I'm roleplaying a "I hate the mages" Hawke.

2. I'm roleplaying a "Political Power FTW" Hawke.

3. I'm roleplaying a Hawke that knew that siding with the mages would have most likely got them,their lovers,siblings and the rest of their companions killed.

[Cyrus Amell]

 

2. I'm roleplaying a "Political Power FTW" Hawke.

 

 

I always thought it was stupid that Hawke did not become Viscount even when he or she sided with the Mages. As Pro-Mage, we begin the final chapter dealing with a plot by the nobles to unseat the Templars and succeed in saving them from Meredith's death squads. When that quest chain is over, I distinctly heard the leader say something along the lines of "we will fight with you when ready." Then.... nothing. 

 

I mean, what better time to drive the Templars from the city than when they just sustained massive casualties assaulting the Circle and losing their leader? In this scenario, Hawke would have been made Viscount with the unanimous support of the nobles, rather than that of the Templars. The only problem this would present is that Kirkwall would be going against the Chantry, and Cullen would be in a less than favorable position leading up to Dragon Age Inquisition.