When I found out that Anders could be rivaled into joining the Templars at the end, I just had to try it! Its a bit plot-disjointed to have an apostate Hawke dragging Anders and Carver, his newly assertive Grey Warden brother, to enact the Right of Annulment on the Kirkwall Circle, but it did have some interesting dialog.
One of the truly weird developments: Templars bowing to Hawke, and his terrorist abomination companion.
Now you're making me want to try it. With an apostate blood mage Hawke.
I always thought it was stupid that Hawke did not become Viscount even when he or she sided with the Mages. As Pro-Mage, we begin the final chapter dealing with a plot by the nobles to unseat the Templars and succeed in saving them from Meredith's death squads. When that quest chain is over, I distinctly heard the leader say something along the lines of "we will fight with you when ready." Then.... nothing.
I mean, what better time to drive the Templars from the city than when they just sustained massive casualties assaulting the Circle and losing their leader? In this scenario, Hawke would have been made Viscount with the unanimous support of the nobles, rather than that of the Templars. The only problem this would present is that Kirkwall would be going against the Chantry, and Cullen would be in a less than favorable position leading up to Dragon Age Inquisition.
Whether or not the nobles supported Hawke unanimously would probably have not made a difference, since the Templars could just act to keep her away from power by any means they saw fit and there would be little any of them could do about it. In the end, it would require the city guard itself to act, and I'm not entirely certain that the guard is capable of dealing with the Templars, even with Meredith gone and a percentage of their forces cut down. There's also the matter of more Templar reinforcements coming, and the expectation of another exalted march.
Guest_Imanol de Tafalla_*
My canon ForceMage!Hawke reluctantly sided with the Templars because he did not want to live like his father for the rest of his life.
Of course, he was aware of the dangers that he could face should the Annulment be successful, though he held on to the fool's hope that maybe Meredith and those under her would show some leniency towards the Champion and any innocent mages who surrendered to the Chantry's authority.
Well, I picked the Templars with the mindset that, after the destruction of the Chantry, the circle had to be purged in order to maintain stability in Kirkwall. I hoped to be able temper the Right of Annulment. Luckily, even Cullen was voicing doubts about executing the Rite... so Hawke was able spare some mages that surrendered.
That ending was unexpectedly epic.
-snip-
Indeed. Siding with the Templars as a mage feels so right in the worst way possible. It really adds to the drama knowing that despite Hawke's efforts, the hero's actions cannot stop the world from betraying you before it slips into madness.
Many people have said that one of the reasons they can’t side with the Templars in DA2’s final choice is because Kirkwall’s Circle played absolutely no part in Anders’ terrorist attack. However, even if we assume this to be true; I have often defended the Kirkwall Circle was heavily corrupted; I believe there are still good reasons that can convince Hawke to help Meredith.
Let’s go step by step: Anders murders Elthina in an extremely noticeable and magical fashion. This was done on purpose. He wished to force a confrontation between mages and non-mages by making the people of Kirkwall see their beloved Grand Cleric murdered by a mage.
Meredith made a mistake in biting the bait but this is not something that Hawke can influence. She has called for the Right of Annulment and there is no way Hawke can dissuade her from this path. All Hawke can do is choose between helping or opposing her.
If you choose to help her, Hawke must kill the entire population of the Circle; barring the few that surrender; who, one can safely say, were innocent of this particular crime. Obviously, that sounds horrific and unjust.
However, on the other hand, what will occur if Hawke helps the Circle? Either of these things:
1-Hawke will lose which is actually what happens in the game. Hawke fails to defeat the templars and all s/he accomplished was enabling some mages to escape. One might say that it was worth it but was it really?
By fighting the Templars, Hawke helped extend the conflict which means more Templars and mages fighting in the streets of Kirkwall, releasing fireballs, demons and abominations. How many innocent people who had nothing to do with this situation died in the crossfire? How many could have been saved had Hawke; with all of his/her skill; assisted the Templars in killing the mages before they could summon truly destructive powers?
Is it really worth it setting the city ablaze to save the Circle? I do not believe so. Is Hawke the Champion of Kirkwall or the Champion of Kirkwall’s Circle?
2-Hawke might WIN
. In order to do so, Hawke must defeat the templars which means either killing them all or reducing them to a number where they will no longer present a threat.
Ok, you might say, they were the attackers. They deserved it. Maybe so, but once the mages have won the battle, what will happen?
Will the mages remain in the Gallows and quietly wait for the Divine to send reinforcements? That is extremely unlikely given the harsh conditions of Kirkwall’s Circle and the fact these mages just killed an army of templars.
They have no reason to believe they will be given flowers and cake once reinforcements arrive. And even if they did, it is only a matter of time until the people of Kirkwall commandeer boats and demand a justification as to why
both the Grand Cleric and the Knight Commander have been slain by magic in which case we can expect more bloodshed.
Will the mages run from the city? Possibly, a few might but I doubt the majority will do so. We must remember that these mages likely have families in the city that they probably miss and that even those who don't will feel empowered by this victory which might rule over their common sense.
However, we can’t really expect Kirkwall to be very welcoming to the mages after, as I said before, the Grand Cleric and Knight Commander have been slain by it in one night. Rather, the common people will likely see it as a plot by the mages to establish a new Tevinter and they will react with violence. Violence that the City Guard will find itself unable to curb given the fact they are not used to fighting mages.
More fighting ensues, more lives are lost, the rotten Veil will lead to more demons passing through and either the non-mages will kill every mage they can find or the mages will reach the conclusion the only way for them to be safe in the city is to rule it. Meanwhile, the Divine calls for an Exalted March and raises Kirkwall to the ground.
So, what is the right thing to do in DA2’s endgame? Stick to your ideals and protect the wrongfully accused or simply accept that sometimes a rotten limb must be amputated? That it’s preferable to Annul Kirkwall’s Circle to watching Kirkwall itself burn?
Personally, I believe it is the latter. A tragic, bloody affair but the innocents living in the city must be protected. Even if a less number of innocents must perish in the process.
Death and chaos litters the streets because Meredith made it so. She wants blood, so let it flow indiscriminate, and may the survivors know who brought it upon them.
I did a play through like that once with a sarcastic blood mage Hawke. Not my canon run but one of my favorites. Meredith stands there and rants, accusing you of blood magic and misdirection... and her suspicions turn out to be all true...but then she has the red lyrium sword so everthing she says just sounds crazy and paranoid. Then the Templars all bow. Except I think I killed Anders in that one though....and now I know why Anders will never trust even a friended mage Hawke 100%. Probably especially a friended mage Hawke lol.Now you're making me want to try it. With an apostate blood mage Hawke.
Been flipping through the DAI Codex, and I just found out the effects of Mage Hawke siding with the Templars on the subsequent Mage Templar war.
To people who sided with the templars, I'm wondering, if Meredith ordered the death of every Ferelden in Kirkwall because Anders came from Ferelden and thus people would demand blood against the refugees, would you still support her?
To people who sided with the templars, I'm wondering, if Meredith ordered the death of every Ferelden in Kirkwall because Anders came from Ferelden and thus people would demand blood against the refugees, would you still support her?
To people who sided with the templars, I'm wondering, if Meredith ordered the death of every Ferelden in Kirkwall because Anders came from Ferelden and thus people would demand blood against the refugees, would you still support her?
Why exactly would Meredith would resort to this in this case? What would be her basis for this act, aside from barring refugees to Kirkwall?
Elthina would have her simply removed.
If I remember correctly, Hawke can say something along the lines of "Mages are protecting themselves and the Templars are trying to protect the people of Kirkwall. All we can do now is try and keep casualties to a minimum" when Merrill raises objection to siding with the Templars.
I'll have to agree with Sebastian though, when he says both sides are terrible. Most of the time I side with the Templars because they will try to protect the citizens, and Hawke is their Champion.
I dunno how one can say the Templars are protecting the citizens. Meredith the Mad literally told Ser Mettin he was in charge of a squad of Templars actively advised to "purge mage sympathizers" -- said mages themselves having been wounds from being whipped and had been starved by the Templars. That was in A Noble Agenda.
In The Last Holdouts, you still find out that the citizens are also being hunted. Everyday civilians, from cobblers to housewives, are being put to the sword.
And Cullen wonders why people are as unlikely to help the Templars as they are. Dense buffoon.
I dunno how one can say the Templars are protecting the citizens. Meredith the Mad literally told Ser Mettin he was in charge of a squad of Templars actively advised to "purge mage sympathizers" -- said mages themselves having been wounds from being whipped and had been starved by the Templars. That was in A Noble Agenda.
In The Last Holdouts, you still find out that the citizens are also being hunted. Everyday civilians, from cobblers to housewives, are being put to the sword.
And Cullen wonders why people are as unlikely to help the Templars as they are. Dense buffoon.
Aiding apostates may be a crime, but it's not one punishable by death -- especially not death in the streets. And the Templars fail to take responsibility for their own actions that cause such things.
Saying you should be stopped for having sympathies for other people is tantamount to punishing people for what they think. I'm sure if the roles were reversed, if Templar sympathizers were being slaughtered in the streets, people would be saying "that's not right! They can't do that!"
And they'd be right. Sympathy is no crime.
Good grief, obviously, by "sympathizers" I meant people actively supporting the apostates, not people that just thought about it. Even some Templars think about supporting apostates.
Good grief, obviously, by "sympathizers" I meant people actively supporting the apostates, not people that just thought about it. Even some Templars think about supporting apostates.
Except Meredith's death squads are pretty much killing ANYONE who even remotely does anything with an apostate. In case you forget, during Noble Agenda, Ser Mettin is going to kill a woman in broad daylight merely because she gave food and a bed to her apostate sister. Does that justify killing her?
Heck, if crazy Meredith was in charge when Bethany was taken to the circle, she would have had your family killed for harboring an apostate.
That's not even getting into the fact that Meredith uses the templars to kill people who think about opposing her policies like the nobles during Noble Agenda.
Heck, Karras outright says Meredith has already called for the Rite of Annulment at the start of Act 3 if he's still alive, so that means that Meredith ordering the annulment is less for justice and more Meredith finally having an excuse to kill all mages and nobody being around to stop her.
Yes, to the Templars, the Mage apostates and sympathizers are a danger to population, and so they need to be stopped.
At DA2's finale, there is also a sense that the Kirkwall citizens will attempt to seek mob justice if the Circle is not Annulled. In defending the Mages, or stopping the Templars, a lot of civilians will die as the mages defend themselves, and as Kirkwall is engulfed in riots. Obviously, this was not borne out in story of the Champion in DAI who sides with the Mages.
What sense? Meredith is the only one who says that, and considering the fact that she already called for the Annulment at the start of Act 3, it should be obvious that the Annulment is less about appeasing a mob and more Meredith being a rabid mage hater who is finally getting an excuse to kill mages.
If the people want justice, why not arrest and try Anders? He's standing right there and isn't fighting back. Wouldn't it make more sense to punish Anders alone instead of punishing a group of people who Gaider himself said are completely innocent.
Also, isn't the role of the Templars also to PROTECT mages, not kill them all to potentially appease a mob? Did you forget that the Gallows is on an island? How is a mob going to surprise the templars given that they would need a boat which would be seen? You seem to believe Meredith was honest about appeasing a mob when given how she doesn't care what you do to Anders plus what I've said earlier kind of shows that she only wanted to kill mages because she's a fanatical mage-hater.
And would you still support the genocide if say a Ferelden refugee blew up the Chantry and Meredith ordered the death of every Ferelden in Kirkwall?
Now you're making me want to try it. With an apostate blood mage Hawke.
Bearbeitet von Obadiah, 10 März 2016 - 04:00 .
@thesuperdarkone2
You don't like Meredith and think she's crazy? Nooo... really?
I already said her position was unfair on the first page. I'm just interested in the rationales for siding with her so I could role-play the decision. I'm certainly not trying to justify it or convince anyone else to pick her side.
As for reasons with siding with Meredith, I could say that I hate blood magic since it was the reason why your mother was murdered (an insane mage trying to resurrect his wife using your mother's corpse). Also, your sibling/friend was kidnapped by another mage who demands your blood after killing her blood mage lover. It's one thing if the apostates were killing or harming innocents, but if they threatened your love ones, you can bet your sweet ass I'd side with the Templars to stop or terminate them.
As for reasons with siding with Meredith, I could say that I hate blood magic since it was the reason why your mother was murdered (an insane mage trying to resurrect his wife using your mother's corpse). Also, your sibling/friend was kidnapped by another mage who demands your blood after killing her blood mage lover. It's one thing if the apostates were killing or harming innocents, but if they threatened your love ones, you can bet your sweet ass I'd side with the Templars to stop or terminate them.
Even if it meant killing every mage in the Circle including innocent people and children?
Good grief, obviously, by "sympathizers" I meant people actively supporting the apostates, not people that just thought about it. Even some Templars think about supporting apostates.
So a woman who lets her beaten, whipped and starved sibling who happens to be a mage have some food and a couch to sleep on for the night is guilty of a crime and must be executed in the street without a trial?
Isn't that a choice that Hawke can make in that quest, based on which Templar to side with?So a woman who lets her beaten, whipped and starved sibling who happens to be a mage have some food and a couch to sleep on for the night is guilty of a crime and must be executed in the street without a trial?
Isn't that a choice that Hawke can make in that quest, based on which Templar to side with?
Not if you side with Orsino at the beginning of Act 3. Then you're tasked in a side quest of helping the mage sympathizers and you see Ser Mettin preparing to kill a non-mage in the street.
That quest changes based on a Hawke who has been more pro-mage or pro-templar.
I would like to note, however, a pattern of behavior of Meredith's that existed even before she got the idol as it is mentioned in Act 1 and in Cullen's codex. Meredith promotes people who's views align with hers. Cullen's codex says he was made Knight-Captain because his views of mages were so close to her own. Thrask tells us Ser Kerras is one of Meredith's cronies when asked to help track down some runaway mages. If the mages hadn't already surrendered at the time of arrival it would be a blood bath and Meredith would call it justified, and this is Act 1.
If we look at the Knight-Lieutenants thoughout the game, Ser Metten, Ser Kerras, Ser Alrik, and the codex regarding Cullen's promotion it paints a disturbing picture in the various people Meredith gave positions of authority to and how much leeway she was willing to give them.
Of course, siding with the templars and siding with that one templar who opposes Metten's brute-force punish everyone on suspicion alone, is certainly a good thing to do. 
Even if it meant killing every mage in the Circle including innocent people and children?
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