334 réponses à ce sujet

[Master Warder Z_]

My favorite exhibit at the aquarium was the shark pups o.o their playfulness belies the animal instinct that drives them.

Also their skin was nice.

[Wrath_Of_Deadguy]

People don't like Merrill because she reminds them of how close they came to really screwing up at some point in their lives. She's clearly a good person... but prideful, naive, and possessed of skills beyond her common sense (so what if other people can't handle the damgers of blood magic... I'm not other people, I'm a talented mage! I'll be more careful! So what if other people get in horrible car accidents and die because they were drunk/too tired/talking on a phone... I'm not other people, I'm a good driver!). Because that combination has never caused any otherwise good person in recorded history any grief whatsoever.

 

We should have less sympathy for her character because her shortsightedness came to a bad end, whereas the rest of us managed to luck out of the consequences for our foolishness? C'mon. I can't be the only one who's very narrowly avoided doing something utterly horrible by pure dumb luck, because he was just too proud or blind to admit he was in over his head. I'm pretty certain that happens to most people in the first quarter or third of their lifespan... unless they're not as lucky and actually do something utterly horrible. Then, if they're a good person, they have a total breakdown and want to take it all back.

 

Gee, what happens right after Marethari (and possibly the whole clan) dies? Right. Merrill has a total breakdown and wants to take it all back. Then she either comes to her senses and destroys the mirror before it leads her to cause further harm to those she cares about, or she presses on because "it can't have all been for nothing." Um. Sounds pretty legit to me.

 

She's honestly one of the most troublingly believable characters in the series. She's heading for disaster, refuses to accept the obvious, and when it all comes down around her ears she can't figure out where it all went wrong. Blames everyone but herself ("why did Pol run away?!" ... "Why did the Keeper interfere?!") and is generally horrified by the notion that she might be the one who's doing something wrong. That's pretty much ages 12-29 in a nutshell right there.

 

And... really, that's one of the lesser errands in foolhardiness in DA2. With an outcome potentially limited to one or two casualties that are directly attributable to her actions. Compare that to Isabela, whose actions (predictably- she knew what she had and she knew the Qunari would have left if she returned it) result in the Qunari invasion that kills who knows how many and decapitates the city government, or Anders/Justice, whose actions spark a war across the known world and wind up costing thousands upon thousands of lives (which, might I remind you, was exactly what he intended- to do something so terrible that all hope of peacepul resolution would be lost). Merrill is small fish compared to those two screwups. Or Hawke, for that matter... who can pick the wrong side at just about any juncture and claim dozens of lives every single time (which includes the entire Merrill episode... Hawke's decisions limit the damage to Marethari or result in the massacre of the whole clan. Hawke can either choose to enable or impede her work on the eluvian. If Hawke refuses to help her at all, Marethari never even dies, nor does Pol).

 

Really. I think her problem as a character is that she's a little too relatable. A good person who does something awful?! How can this be?! ...except for every single time in human history that a good person has done something awful thinking they were doing something good. But we can ignore those guys. We even have holidays for a lot of them.

 

Nope. Can't have that at all. Merrill is a monster holding the idiot ball. Just like Blackwall is a total monster because of what he did in the past (the murder of an entire family for politcal purposes), despite all that he has done since to atone. Or Loghain, because he thought he was saving his country from a long-time enemy that had conquered it before. Or Sigrun, who discovered that she actually valued her life only when she was about to lose it and ran away in defiance of her vows, in the process abandoning her comrades to the darkspawn? Or Leliana, who at first presents the appearance of a cherubic goody-two-shoes but has the past of an assassin and saboteur? Or Nathaniel, who thought his father was a hero and tried to claim vengeance only to discover that he was fighting for the honor of a total punter? Or Solas, who literally handed the artifact of doom to Corypheus for (as near as we can tell) entirely selfish reasons, only to be screwed over and inadvertently become an accomplice in the murder of... how many people (and then proceeded to hide the fact for... y'know, the whole time he was helping defeat the monster he helped create)? Or perhaps Sten, who awoke to discover that the thing which defined his identity was gone, and in a fit of uncontrollable rage killed the very people who saved his life? Or... do I really need to keep going here? Bioware, how dare you give us characters of ambiguous moral standing?! It makes us actually think about important things, instead of just being around perfect infallible heroes all the time! For shame!

[myahele]

People are ok with Solas, but not Merrill because she's a woman? 

[Han Shot First]

Dislike for Merrill is in no way linked to her gender.

 

People don't like Merrill because she's an idiot. Solas isn't.

[TK514]

People don't like Merrill because she's an idiot. Solas isn't.

I don't know. I think Solas has already showed one example of staggeringly bad judgement, and is right on track to do something even dumber in the near future.

[Addai]

Where's all this stuff about Lavellan being fluent in elven coming from? It's been a couple of months now but I don't remember anything that indicated the elfquisitor was functionally fluent in my playthrough or is Lob just pulling stuff out his nethers again?

Lavellan can speak in elven to Mihris and understands the conversation between Wisdom and Solas.

The Dalish in The Stolen Throne are shouting in elven to each other when they capture Loghain and Maric, and the First tells Loghain that while most speak the common tongue, only those who have dealings with the outside do so frequently.

[Han Shot First]

The Elfquisitor can also get snarky with Solas in Elvish back at Skyhold, if you rack up enough disapproval points.

[Sweawm]

I don't know. I think Solas has already showed one example of staggeringly bad judgement, and is right on track to do something even dumber in the near future.

That is pretty much right. Merril's plan would have only been harmful to herself if not interfered with (providing the deal with the demon did go wrong, Hawke and co were there) but there seems to be no limit to Solas's ability to screw things up. First he triggered his people's downfall and enslavement, then woke up and thought the best course of action was to hand over a magical artifact of immense power to a crazy Darkspawn Magister so that it can start a demonic invasion. Then to recover his power, he take's Mythal's so that he can 'save the people'.

 

I have no idea why people seem to approve of Solas. Maybe because he at least appears at surface level to know what he's doing (he probably doesn't).

[LobselVith8]

People don't like Merrill because she reminds them of how close they came to really screwing up at some point in their lives. She's clearly a good person... but prideful, naive, and possessed of skills beyond her common sense (so what if other people can't handle the damgers of blood magic... I'm not other people, I'm a talented mage! I'll be more careful! So what if other people get in horrible car accidents and die because they were drunk/too tired/talking on a phone... I'm not other people, I'm a good driver!). Because that combination has never caused any otherwise good person in recorded history any grief whatsoever.

 

I'm not seeing that. Merrill is able to handle her own skills. She was able to cleanse a shard of the taint, she was able to construct an Eluvian proficiently enough that the Crossroads created an equivalent to it to link the two (as long as it wasn't destroyed), she was able to discern whether or not Keran was possessed, and she was immediately able to distinguish the nature of the Profane Abomination and Torpor. She's clearly able to handle her own power; she's also not the one who screwed up by releasing Audacity from the totem and becoming possessed.

 

We should have less sympathy for her character because her shortsightedness came to a bad end, whereas the rest of us managed to luck out of the consequences for our foolishness? C'mon. I can't be the only one who's very narrowly avoided doing something utterly horrible by pure dumb luck, because he was just too proud or blind to admit he was in over his head. I'm pretty certain that happens to most people in the first quarter or third of their lifespan... unless they're not as lucky and actually do something utterly horrible. Then, if they're a good person, they have a total breakdown and want to take it all back.

 

Except Marethari is the one who released Audacity, under the pretense of protecting Merrill... followed by trying to kill her as an abomination, and then it can lead to a violent confrontation with Clan Sabrae because Marethari did nothing to warn the clan about what she was doing. Merrill, in contrast, took precautions when she suspected Audacity had somehow gotten free of the totem, which is part of the reason why she asked Hawke to accompany her (and kill her if she became possessed).

 

Gee, what happens right after Marethari (and possibly the whole clan) dies? Right. Merrill has a total breakdown and wants to take it all back. Then she either comes to her senses and destroys the mirror before it leads her to cause further harm to those she cares about, or she presses on because "it can't have all been for nothing." Um. Sounds pretty legit to me.

 

I don't see why Merrill "comes to her senses" if she destroys the Eluvian; Marethari was wrong when she claimed Merrill would bring back the taint, and she was wrong to think it would allow Audacity to escape when the spirit was trapped in a totem in the real world.

 

She's honestly one of the most troublingly believable characters in the series. She's heading for disaster, refuses to accept the obvious, and when it all comes down around her ears she can't figure out where it all went wrong. Blames everyone but herself ("why did Pol run away?!" ... "Why did the Keeper interfere?!") and is generally horrified by the notion that she might be the one who's doing something wrong. That's pretty much ages 12-29 in a nutshell right there.

 

Merrill isn't responsible for Marethari poisoning the clan against her in some asinine attempt to coerce her to come back, which Merrill calls her out on when she tries to figure out why Pol ran away, and Marethari becomes so enraged that she refuses to hand over the Arulin'Holm to her, instead giving it to Hawke (in violation of Dalish custom).

 

And... really, that's one of the lesser errands in foolhardiness in DA2. With an outcome potentially limited to one or two casualties that are directly attributable to her actions. Compare that to Isabela, whose actions (predictably- she knew what she had and she knew the Qunari would have left if she returned it) result in the Qunari invasion that kills who knows how many and decapitates the city government, or Anders/Justice, whose actions spark a war across the known world and wind up costing thousands upon thousands of lives (which, might I remind you, was exactly what he intended- to do something so terrible that all hope of peacepul resolution would be lost). Merrill is small fish compared to those two screwups. Or Hawke, for that matter... who can pick the wrong side at just about any juncture and claim dozens of lives every single time (which includes the entire Merrill episode... Hawke's decisions limit the damage to Marethari or result in the massacre of the whole clan. Hawke can either choose to enable or impede her work on the eluvian. If Hawke refuses to help her at all, Marethari never even dies, nor does Pol).

 

There's a stark difference between Marethari releasing Audacity because she was prideful enough to think she knew better than Merrill about something she didn't seem to even study (since she explicitly says she thinks the Eluvians should simply remain buried in the past) while Merrill painstakingly studied the lore on the Eluvian and extrapolated information from the shard she took from the Elven Ruins, and Isabela withholding the Tome of Koslun that the Qunari were looking for when she finally locates it.

 

Really. I think her problem as a character is that she's a little too relatable. A good person who does something awful?! How can this be?! ...except for every single time in human history that a good person has done something awful thinking they were doing something good. But we can ignore those guys. We even have holidays for a lot of them.

 

Merrill is a free mage who doesn't believe in the Chantry controlled Circles, respects magic as a gift of the Creators, and is an example of a good blood mage. I think that's the simple explanation as to why some people hate her and are so keen to vilify her for the actions committed by entirely different people.

 

Nope. Can't have that at all. Merrill is a monster holding the idiot ball. Just like Blackwall is a total monster because of what he did in the past (the murder of an entire family for politcal purposes), despite all that he has done since to atone. Or Loghain, because he thought he was saving his country from a long-time enemy that had conquered it before. Or Sigrun, who discovered that she actually valued her life only when she was about to lose it and ran away in defiance of her vows, in the process abandoning her comrades to the darkspawn? Or Leliana, who at first presents the appearance of a cherubic goody-two-shoes but has the past of an assassin and saboteur? Or Nathaniel, who thought his father was a hero and tried to claim vengeance only to discover that he was fighting for the honor of a total punter? Or Solas, who literally handed the artifact of doom to Corypheus for (as near as we can tell) entirely selfish reasons, only to be screwed over and inadvertently become an accomplice in the murder of... how many people (and then proceeded to hide the fact for... y'know, the whole time he was helping defeat the monster he helped create)? Or perhaps Sten, who awoke to discover that the thing which defined his identity was gone, and in a fit of uncontrollable rage killed the very people who saved his life? Or... do I really need to keep going here? Bioware, how dare you give us characters of ambiguous moral standing?! It makes us actually think about important things, instead of just being around perfect infallible heroes all the time! For shame!

 

I suppose I see it differently, since TME proved that Merrill was right about the Eluvians (since her argument was that the technology could help the elves, and Briala uses it for precisely that cause to help establish her network during the Orlesian civil war, as a means to empower the Orlesian elves), and Inquisition showed that Merrill was close enough to making her Eluvian work that it shows up in the Crossroads.

[KaiserShep]

I like Merrill, but I don't want a rehash of her, or any companion for that matter.

[Addai]

People are ok with Solas, but not Merrill because she's a woman?

It's true that the "child in a woman's body" trope pushes my berserk buttons. I didn't like Merrill in DA2. She seemed a walking stereotype of a bumbling, naive Dalish elf in a human world and with no opportunity to play an elven PC, there was no way to challenge her on it except from a position of privilege. I thought she betrayed Mahariel and Tamlen by resurrecting the eluvian with so little understanding of it. In my first playthrough, I had to kill her entire clan which I found distressing. There's also the fact that her character was level-headed in Origins so her DA2 persona was a retcon.

Now, she's been proven right about the eluvians at least, though the experience with her clan is echoed with Clan Virnehn and Imshael. As an aside, I think we're seeing deliberate irony in that the Dalish are repeating the steps of the Tevinters in trying to reclaim their heritage- which was stolen, twisted and suppressed by Tevinter.

Anyway, as far as Solas goes, he and Merrill share idealism and pride in service of a higher goal, but as others have pointed out, Solas' greater competency is accompanied by much greater stakes and consequences. There are plenty of haters for both characters. Solas' personality is a lot easier for me to like. It has nothing to do with male vs. female. I wanted to be Merill's BFF in DA2, but she didn't become a Morrigan for me. I do think she and my Inquisitor would get along, supposing Merrill is now a bit wiser and less dippy.

[TEWR]

I don't see the dwarves creating it with magic since they have none, misunderstood elven weaponry would be consistent I imagine, the Magisters helping themselves to it but not knowing the consequences

 

PT Dwarves had magic it seems, and more then one comment is made on how the Dwarves aren't what they used to be or are missing something (Cole, Solas, Nexus Golem, OGB Kieran)

[TEWR]

Dislike for Merrill is in no way linked to her gender.

 

People don't like Merrill because she's an idiot. Solas isn't.

 

Solas gave one of his foci to Corypheus, one of the ancient Magisters of Tevinter turned into a Darkspawn.

 

If that's not an idiotic thing to do I dunno what is.

[TEWR]

That is pretty much right. Merril's plan would have only been harmful to herself if not interfered with (providing the deal with the demon did go wrong, Hawke and co were there) but there seems to be no limit to Solas's ability to screw things up. First he triggered his people's downfall and enslavement, then woke up and thought the best course of action was to hand over a magical artifact of immense power to a crazy Darkspawn Magister so that it can start a demonic invasion. Then to recover his power, he take's Mythal's so that he can 'save the people'.

 

I have no idea why people seem to approve of Solas. Maybe because he at least appears at surface level to know what he's doing (he probably doesn't).

 

I agree with everything except "Merrill's plan being harmful to herself" because there truly wasn't anything dangerous about her plan. It was "Go to trapped and weakened demon, try to get information, bring Hawke along incase Demon tries something anyway". You can call her out and say "You want me to help you summon a demon?!" and she will point blank tell you that she is 1) not doing that and 2) not asking you to do that.

[Panda]

I agree with everything except "Merrill's plan being harmful to herself" because there truly wasn't anything dangerous about her plan. It was "Go to trapped and weakened demon, try to get information, bring Hawke along incase Demon tries something anyway". You can call her out and say "You want me to help you summon a demon?!" and she will point blank tell you that she is 1) not doing that and 2) not asking you to do that.

 

Yes, this

 

I don't think either she did anything really harmful to herself or others. Blood magic- yes, but blood magic don't seem to be 100% evil, like Malcolm Hawke who was blood mage as well, Merrill's intention when using it weren't harmful and blood magic didn't even corrupt them. What she did was dangerous but she managed to cleanse the eluvian after all.

 

Also Morrigan researches eluvians and likes deals with demons (I got negative points for not letting "Kitty" to possess child). She might have more knowledge on magical thinks thanks to Flemeth and also cleverness but she's that different than Merrill when thinking about magic and using it for their purposes. So I wonder why people like her that much over Merrill.

[MissDragon]

No sorry to say , we need a Tallis. I didn't like Merrill. I'll leave quietly....

[Obadiah]

Wasn't Merrill literally a blood mage under the influence of a demon manipulating her into constructing the Eluvian in order to release it from an ancient prison? The character flaws she had in DA2 (if not pride, then at least dangerous curiosity and stubbornness) weren't exactly subtle.

[daveliam]

Anyone who falls 100% in the "Merrill was totally in control and not being manipulated by Audacity" camp is just not facing reality.

 

Conversely, anyone who can't admit that there is solid evidence that Marethari might also have been manipulated by Audacity is also just blatantly ignoring important points.

 

The point of that entire story arc was to keep it ambiguous so that people could justify either choice.  It's not black and white (which is refreshing), so it's weird to see people try to make it black and white.

 

I, personally, think Merrill was being manipulated by Audacity and Marethari ended up sacrificing herself to save Merrill.  But I can also admit that there is a solid argument that Marethari was manipulate as well. 

[TEWR]

Wasn't Merrill literally a blood mage under the influence of a demon manipulating her into constructing the Eluvian in order to release it from an ancient prison? The character flaws she had in DA2 (if not pride, then at least dangerous curiosity and stubbornness) weren't exactly subtle.

 

 

And how pray tell would a Demon that is trapped and sundered from the Fade, as is repeatedly mentioned to us, and weakened at that manage to escape through an Eluvian? 

 

It was quite literally bound to the demonic Buddha totem. 

 

Hell Merrill's Eluvian doesn't even connect to the Fade. It connects to the Crossroads. And even though Eluvians can lead to the Fade, only a few people have managed to do that -- OGB Kieran and/or Flemeth, both of whom are wildly different from your average person. It's even made clear that Eluvians leading to the Fade is something altogether strange, as Morrigan says.

 

Merrill used the power of blood, known to be an amplifier like lyrium, to power up the healing magic she was taught by Marethari (that had suppressed and weakened the Taint in Mahariel) to cleanse the shard of its corruption. Merrill says she could've achieved the same result with buckets of lyrium if she had it and she also tells you that she initially went to Marethari so they could pool their magic together.

 

After she cleansed it, she worked on the Eluvian by herself for seven years using what bits of lore she could find and extrapolations therein to build an entirely new one.

 

So no, she was not "under the influence" of a Demon to build it. Not literally, at least. And tbh, Marethari's failings as a Keeper and a mother and everything are her own. She knew a Demon was resting atop the mountain and was whispering to her, yet she stayed there for years and years.

 

I'll not blame Merrill for Marethari's ineptitude

 

 

 

Anyone who falls 100% in the "Merrill was totally in control and not being manipulated by Audacity" camp is just not facing reality.

 

That's never been my stance, FWIW. My stance has been that Audacity took note of Merrill and Marethari's differing opinions on the Eluvian and did help Merrill learn blood magic so she could cleanse it with her healing magic, knowing that Marethari's pride (as Keeper, mother, etc.) would never have her let go and the rift between the two would grow and grow -- a rift that he fed by subtly manipulating Marethari through her dreams in whispers, as she was the most affected by his whispering -- so that he could escape.

 

In short, he didn't care who he possessed. He just wanted freedom, but Marethari was the better choice. Far more susceptible, had more power (figurative and literal combined), more likely to free him, wasn't miles away since distance affects how loud his whispers can be, etc.

 

The Eluvian wasn't going to grant him escape. It was just a tool for him to use that would grant him real escape. Only a mage could let him loose, as Merrill tells us.

 

Was Merrill a pawn in his gambit? Yes. Was Merrill in danger? Not really. Merrill knew enough not to free him, to not trust him ("It's dangerous to trust" are her exact words), didn't rely on him for all her work, and many other things.

 

I'm not saying Merrill doesn't have flaws though (pride she does have, obviously. Anyone who doesn't see that doesn't understand her character). But I do feel the need to state my stance.

[fhs33721]

Wasn't Merrill literally a blood mage under the influence of a demon manipulating her into constructing the Eluvian in order to release it from an ancient prison? The character flaws she had in DA2 (if not pride, then at least dangerous curiosity and stubbornness) weren't exactly subtle.

If that realy was the demons plan, then why would he not just tell Merill how exactly to fix the mirror right from the start? If he could really escape through the Eluvian why does he not simply tell her how to fix it at once instead of refusing to hand over all the information for several years. I rather thought his plan was withholding information so that Merril continually had to seek its guidance giving it more chances to trick her.

[TK514]

I agree with everything except "Merrill's plan being harmful to herself" because there truly wasn't anything dangerous about her plan. It was "Go to trapped and weakened demon, try to get information, bring Hawke along incase Demon tries something anyway". You can call her out and say "You want me to help you summon a demon?!" and she will point blank tell you that she is 1) not doing that and 2) not asking you to do that.

 

Merrill obviously thought it had the potential to be harmful to her, or she wouldn't have asked Hawke to promise to kill her if something went wrong.

[LOLandStuff]

Anyone who falls 100% in the "Merrill was totally in control and not being manipulated by Audacity" camp is just not facing reality.

 

Conversely, anyone who can't admit that there is solid evidence that Marethari might also have been manipulated by Audacity is also just blatantly ignoring important points.

 

The point of that entire story arc was to keep it ambiguous so that people could justify either choice.  It's not black and white (which is refreshing), so it's weird to see people try to make it black and white.

 

I, personally, think Merrill was being manipulated by Audacity and Marethari ended up sacrificing herself to save Merrill.  But I can also admit that there is a solid argument that Marethari was manipulate as well. 

 

I always thought Audacity started with Merrill and Marethari was a back-up plan.

It's a demon who wanted a way out. He found Merrill who was way too eager to restore what was lost, so of course it was helpful.

He was trapped for centuries or who knows how long. A few more years of waiting was nothing until one of them took the bait.

[dragonflight288]

Wasn't Merrill literally a blood mage under the influence of a demon manipulating her into constructing the Eluvian in order to release it from an ancient prison? The character flaws she had in DA2 (if not pride, then at least dangerous curiosity and stubbornness) weren't exactly subtle.

 

She is if you are so inclined to believe an abomination that immediately tries to kill you and her and offers a reason that is completely different than any reason that had been offered previously on why to oppose the construction of an eluvian. 

[TheJediSaint]

Anyone who falls 100% in the "Merrill was totally in control and not being manipulated by Audacity" camp is just not facing reality.

 

Conversely, anyone who can't admit that there is solid evidence that Marethari might also have been manipulated by Audacity is also just blatantly ignoring important points.

 

The point of that entire story arc was to keep it ambiguous so that people could justify either choice.  It's not black and white (which is refreshing), so it's weird to see people try to make it black and white.

 

I, personally, think Merrill was being manipulated by Audacity and Marethari ended up sacrificing herself to save Merrill.  But I can also admit that there is a solid argument that Marethari was manipulate as well. 

Desire for knowledge was Merrill's weakness.  Marithari's love for Merrill was hers.  If there's one thing demons are good at, it's exploiting weaknesses.

[dragonflight288]

I always thought Audacity started with Merrill and Marethari was a back-up plan.

It's a demon who wanted a way out. He found Merrill who was way too eager to restore what was lost, so of course it was helpful.

He was trapped for centuries or who knows how long. A few more years of waiting was nothing until one of them took the bait.

 

If we go by the short story that takes place before DA2, Merrill and Merethari were both affected by Audacity while on Sundermount, and Merethari was far more affected at night. They decided to investigate and its influence got stronger the closer they got. 

 

Shortly after the events of that short story but before we arrive in Kirkwall as Hawke, Merrill went to Audacity and learned blood magic, and used blood magic to amplify the healing magic Merethari used on the Dalish Warden to cleanse the shard of the taint. 

 

Then we arrive in Kirkwall, take her with us and she leaves Sundermount entirely, and is thus outside of the demon's range of influence, who is stuck in that statue as he has been for centuries, while Merethari remained behind. 

 

Fast Forward to Inquisition, and we can see Merrill's eluvian in the crossroads, which is not the Fade. 

 

As such, the conclusion that the eluvian would have freed the demon seems to be nothing more than a lie told by an abomination. 

 

It is my opinion Merethari was the target the whole time, and Merrill and her learning blood magic was the bait.