79 réponses à ce sujet

[FlyinElk212]

"You worried for me."

"I was concerned ABOUT you, demon. You have grown adept at killing. If you cannot be gone, then I would prefer that you remain pointed at the enemy."

"No...you were worried. The part of you that forgets I'm me...cared. You want it to go away. You think caring makes you weak. Don't worry. I won't tell anyone."

 

==============

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This banter between Vivienne and Cole occurs at any point after his personal quest, and is buried underneath 6 other hours of banter. Let that sink in for a minute. Dragon Age Inquisition has around 6 hours of party banter. And yet even after three 100 hour playthroughs, I just got this banter; perhaps scratched barely 1 hour of the total banter.

 

Bioware is a company that lauds itself on creating compelling worlds with rich, complex characters. Look at the above example- Vivienne, a less popular if not most polarizing character, is extremely nuanced, and puts on a mask despite actually caring for things because she believes she must, as a mage. She is in no position for wild heroics or fighting for what's right, because she will simply be painted in the light all mages are painted in in this war: reckless, with little regard for anything other than their own freedom.

 

However, Vivienne's depth, as well as Bioware's ideal, is subverted with the new mechanics to the game's banter system. Because it is now impossible for players to control the frequency of when banter fires, a majority of the players miss out on this incredible nuance in Vivienne's character. They write her off as a b****, and question Bioware's "rich, complex characters". 

 

Bioware made the change from a "point on the map triggers banter" system to a "banter MIGHT fire every 15 minutes" one in order to help with world immersion, for they felt too many players were abusing the point on the map system (going back and forth over it to hear more dialogue). But let's dissect that thought further:

 

Players were abusing the point on the map system to hear more banter. Why? Short answer is because, well, they wanted to hear more banter. They liked it. It adhered to the strengths of Bioware as a company. It lead to a much better understanding of the rich, complex characters Bioware's capable of writing.

 

They must find a way to make party banter fire more often in future games. Whether that's going back to the old system, or increasing the frequency of when it fires even further, it must happen. Bioware, you've proven you're capable of creating great characters, and players have shown they want to hear more from them.

 

So let the players hear your great characters.

[Iakus]

To be fair, point on a map banter triggers would be difficult to implement in a game with such huge areas. 

 

Though yeah I do think banter should be able to trigger when entering a camp or something.

[ChachiBobinks]

I have problems believing that BioWare would change up the way banter fires because of the way people would work the maps. They're not here to punish us for enjoying things they do for us, you know? 

 

Now here's the truly interesting thing:

 

It's not set on a "might fire every 15 minutes" sort of thing. Not really. It's all percentiles that, yes, are tied to time. But it's more like you have a certain percent of a chance of banter firing every few minutes. The lucky get those things pretty stinking often, while the truly unlucky should have retired that proverbial d20 a long time ago because, Maker's breath, they didn't hear anything for an hour. The odds really are in our favor, though.

 

I played my first PT on the XBox 360 and rarely heard banter. About 20 hours into my 2nd PT (which was on Xbox One), a patch went through and now these guys don't stop chattering. I don't read the patch notes myself, so I don't know if that was something fixed in an Xbone patch. I did think it was interesting that the firing rate changed, though. Maybe they're increasing the chances of it firing? Raising the percent?

[FlyinElk212]

I have problems believing that BioWare would change up the way banter fires because of the way people would work the maps. They're not here to punish us for enjoying things they do for us, you know? 

 

...

 

I played my first PT on the XBox 360 and rarely heard banter. About 20 hours into my 2nd PT (which was on Xbox One), a patch went through and now these guys don't stop chattering. I don't read the patch notes myself, so I don't know if that was something fixed in an Xbone patch. I did think it was interesting that the firing rate changed, though. Maybe they're increasing the chances of it firing? Raising the percent?

Yeah that's true, although I don't think Bioware changed the system with the intention of punishing players, you know? I get the feeling the conversation happened a little more like this:

 

"Hey, M. Laids! You see that video of that guy literally running back and forth for 3 hours over the same convo spot in DA2? Seems a little unrealistic doesn't it?"

"Oh DIP you're right, Gaider Gator! Let's try to find a way for convos to occur more naturally in gameplay. Players will appreciate how we're trying to make things more realistic, and how we're adding to world immersion."

 

I think the patch was in response to them recognizing that people wanted more banter, and thus they increased the firing rate. Again, they were never trying to punish the player's experience; they just took an unfortunate misstep when they tried to help the player immerse themselves more in their world.

[keesio74]

I think when it triggers is very important. For example I was at some dark moment in the game. Then all of a sudden there is some light-hearted nonchalant conversation that was really out of place.

[Uccio]

I had literally like four party banterns in my 170h playthough. And now I just can´t replay the game because it is such a hollow MMO grinder. Not for bantern anyway. Silent and boring game.

[ChachiBobinks]

Yeah that's true, although I don't think Bioware changed the system with the intention of punishing players, you know? I get the feeling the conversation happened a little more like this:

 

"Hey, M. Laids! You see that video of that guy literally running back and forth for 3 hours over the same convo spot in DA2? Seems a little unrealistic doesn't it?"

"Oh DIP you're right, Gaider Gator! Let's try to find a way for convos to occur more naturally in gameplay. Players will appreciate how we're trying to make things more realistic, and how we're adding to world immersion."

 

I think the patch was in response to them recognizing that people wanted more banter, and thus they increased the firing rate. Again, they were never trying to punish the player's experience; they just took an unfortunate misstep when they tried to help the player immerse themselves more in their world.

 

Yeah, I'm sure it did. I think the thing with new concepts (i.e., banter not being map-based) is that it's hard to nail down that perfect formula initially. I bet that would be virtually impossible to really test, since there could be thousands of possibilities. And with it really being luck based, the QAs could have had really good chances and gotten the banter often, yeah? It would be interesting to hear more about banter... why, how, etc.

 

I had literally like four party banterns in my 170h playthough. And now I just can´t replay the game because it is such a hollow MMO grinder. Not for bantern anyway. Silent and boring game.

 

So what did you like about the game, then?

 

I think when it triggers is very important. For example I was at some dark moment in the game. Then all of a sudden there is some light-hearted nonchalant conversation that was really out of place.

 

Absolutely true. Have you submitted feedback on that? 

 

Banter also fires during combat, which makes it really hard to hear. There have been times when the combat sounds have died down enough for me to hear the end of a sentence. *waves fist*

[Wulfram]

I don't think Bioware were trying to stop exploits, so much as they were trying to ensure people don't "run out", even if you're a completionist.

But if they don't run out for a completionist explorer type, that means they barely fire at all for someone who is mostly focused on completing the main quest. Not only is the total time spent in the game potentially cut by a third or more, but the proportion of time spent doing things that block banters from firing (Main Quest/Skyhold/Dialogue/Combat) is greatly increased.

edit: I wonder if they could compare the amount of banter that's fired to the level of completion of the main plot, and increase the firing rate if someone is "behind"?

[ChachiBobinks]

I don't think Bioware were trying to stop exploits, so much as they were trying to ensure people don't "run out", even if you're a completionist.

But if they don't run out for a completionist explorer type, that means they barely fire at all for someone who is mostly focused on completing the main quest. Not only is the total time spent in the game potentially cut by a third or more, but the proportion of time spent doing things that block banters from firing (Main Quest/Skyhold/Dialogue/Combat) is greatly increased.

 

I think you're on to something. If there wasn't a chance that there would be a good spread of banter, you'd get hours of banter and then suddenly nothing. Considering that there are people who have finished an entire playthrough in 35 hrs (HOW. EVEN.), it would make sense if the percentage method was done for that exact reason. Most banter fires when you're running around doing fetch quests. If you don't do the fetch quests (which a lot of people didn't), you're not going to hear the banter. You're not giving the system the opportunity to work.

 

Which is probably the single best advertisement for the Hinterlands ever.  

[FlyinElk212]

I think you're on to something. If there wasn't a chance that there would be a good spread of banter, you'd get hours of banter and then suddenly nothing. Considering that there are people who have finished an entire playthrough in 35 hrs (HOW. EVEN.), it would make sense if the percentage method was done for that exact reason. Most banter fires when you're running around doing fetch quests. If you don't do the fetch quests (which a lot of people didn't), you're not going to hear the banter. You're not giving the system the opportunity to work.

 

Which is probably the single best advertisement for the Hinterlands ever.

Very very true, and I could imagine how difficult it must be to find that correct balance. Though I would suggest that, even with the latest update, they're still on the lower end of the total amount of banters/total banters in the game ratio.

 

I think there are only two issues holding the current system back: the percentiles of banter firing being too low, and situational contrasts with the banter (light-hearted banter occurring during dramatic moments, fights, etc.). In an ideal world, both get fixed, but since that'd be tough, go with the easier fix for now--having banter fire more.

[ChachiBobinks]

Very very true, and I could imagine how difficult it must be to find that correct balance. Though I would suggest that, even with the latest update, they're still on the lower end of the total amount of banters/total banters in the game ratio.

 

I think there are only two issues holding the current system back: the percentiles of banter firing being too low, and situational contrasts with the banter (light-hearted banter occurring during dramatic moments, fights, etc.). In an ideal world, both get fixed, but since that'd be tough, go with the easier fix for now--having banter fire more.

 

I agree! I think that if I had to choose between more banter and banter that isn't properly fit to the situation, I'd go for the former. The latter is awkward but it's still better than nothing. Plus I can headcanon that all of my companions are being self-centered jerks and that could be fun. 

[Sanunes]

The problem I have with banter is that if an issue happens because of it, it becomes noticeable.  During my first play through I had Solas and Varric saying the same banter every couple of minutes because the game wasn't recognizing that it had triggered and desperately wanted to do so, it happened so frequently I stopped having them together in my group.  I think the same thing would happen if they add too much or fix the trigger points because then you might have a lot of banter in a short period of time and then nothing for hours upon hours for you aren't doing the right thing to trigger it.

[Natarsi]

I'd like it if they implemented a setting in the 'gameplay' menu.

Like 'Party banter trigger rater' high - normal - low, with high ensuring one party banter withing every 2 to 5 minutes at max. Except when in the middle of main quest related things.

Thought it's fun to talk about friends what party banter one did get and what the other got, it's sad to miss out on lines one would love to hear oneself. In the game. Not in some sort of audio track with all party banters.

[keesio74]

Another thing about the banter... it is not just entertainment... the banter is extremely important in forming opinions about your companions. I was reading some banter I missed and there is some really key stuff there. I get a better understanding of my companions and who I agree with by how they interact with others. For example, there is the two "devout" characters - Cass and Viv. But when reading the banter they both have with Cole, I find myself clearly approving of Cass while not so of Viv. If there is a case where I need to back one over the other, the banter made a difference. And it is a shame I missed it initially

[FuriousJam]

Couldn't they just assign a button to 'listen to party' so you could actually manually trigger banter whenever you felt like it.

[BubbleDncr]

Yea, Bioware puts a large chunk of their character development in banter, and in my first playthrough, I missed majority of it. Also, I played DA:O and DA2 multiple times, and never realized that's how banter triggered in those games. It definitely worked better, imo. 

 

So they either need to make sure banter triggers at a consistent rate, or move banter into more controlled situations. For instance - in ME3, it was cool how between missions, your companions would move around the ship and hang out with different companions. If something like that happened at Skyhold, a lot of the banter could be moved there, and then if you wanted to hear banter, you'd just go up to your companions. 

 

But I'd prefer banter just working as intended. 

[FlyinElk212]

Yea, Bioware puts a large chunk of their character development in banter, and in my first playthrough, I missed majority of it. Also, I played DA:O and DA2 multiple times, and never realized that's how banter triggered in those games. It definitely worked better, imo. 

Yeah! And that's really my biggest issue with their current banter system. If Bioware, a company that's proud of the complex characters they create, decides to place a large portion of the character's development within banter, then don't make it hard for the player to SEE said banter! It's as though Bioware's unintentionally handicapping themselves.

[Korva]

It's sad how much crucial characterization and personal development in this game is buried beneath the whims of the RNG and the restraints of the tiny party size. This here completionist wishes I could "run out" because I want to see it all, and seethe at the fact that it's pretty much impossible. Cassandra, Cole, Solas, Varric, Dorian, Blackwall ... they're the companions I use and care for, and they have so many very touching and telling and humorous conversations.

 

Also, the personal missions of some of these characters aren't really complete without the following banters to illustrate the changes in themselves and in their relationships with each other. Blackwall is the worst example -- what is the point of his character arc without seeing the effects his lies have on those around him? Without seeing the warrior's cameraderie between him and Cassandra shattered, without Solas' hypocritical contempt and following apology, without Cole's gentle care? It's a stunted, incomplete thing hanging in a vacuum. Cassandra, too, really benefits from her post-mission banters with Solas and Cole to help her make sense of her experiences during her Vigil.

 

The companions are Bioware's strongest point. I wish their conversation were given a better, more fitting and easier to trigger place of honor in this game.

[Knight of Dane]

Just map it for makers sake. If people abuse it, let them, it's their game. And no, it would not be hard to set it at specific places, here's a list:

 

Hinterlands:

Crossroads

Redcliffe Village

Mage Castle in the South

Horse Stables

Valammar

 

Emprise Du Lion:

Sahrnia

Suledin Keep

Broken Bridge

 

Crestwood:

Crestwood Village

Flooded Caves

Caer Bronarch

Warden Cave (Maybe with Hawke)

 

Western Approach:

Gates of Andoral and Toth

Still ruins

Griffon Wing Keep

By Ritual Tower

 

Emerald Graves:

Fairbanks Camp

In both Estates

 

Exalted Plains:

By Dalish Camp

By the two war camps

By the two available operation spots

 

Hissing Wastes:

This one is tough,maybe some by the dwarf thaigs

One in the canyon

 

Storm Coast:

Apostate's Landing

Along Long River (lol)

In the Blades of Hessarian Camp

 

Fallow Mire:

By any of the beacons

 

Val Royeaux:

Just the alley leading ot the docks shoudl suffice.

 

 

 

Maybe the solution would be to have both, or maybe half of these map specific points plus the random banter in the wild.

[hong]

Banter is not meant to be the primary vehicle for conveying a character's personality. You do that by talking to them, back at the homebase. Banter fills in the air time when you're roaming the map. If the soundtrack is muzak, then banter is the radio host.

[Morroian]

Yeah, I'm sure it did. I think the thing with new concepts (i.e., banter not being map-based) is that it's hard to nail down that perfect formula initially. I bet that would be virtually impossible to really test, since there could be thousands of possibilities. And with it really being luck based, the QAs could have had really good chances and gotten the banter often, yeah? It would be interesting to hear more about banter... why, how, etc.

 

Its RNG based, in every instance of RNG in a game outliers happen, plus there are other events in the world possibly taking preference. All in all I think it would have been easy to predict there being problems.

 

 

Banter is not meant to be the primary vehicle for conveying a character's personality. You do that by talking to them, back at the homebase. Banter fills in the air time when you're roaming the map. If the soundtrack is muzak, then banter is the radio host.

 

Not the primary vehicle but certainly a vehicle and not muzak, the OP has stated a nuance that is not 'muzak' and would be quite easily missed.

[ChachiBobinks]

Couldn't they just assign a button to 'listen to party' so you could actually manually trigger banter whenever you felt like it.

 

Just map it for makers sake. If people abuse it, let them, it's their game. And no, it would not be hard to set it at specific places, here's a list:

 

*snip*

 

Maybe the solution would be to have both, or maybe half of these map specific points plus the random banter in the wild.

 

I could see those suggestions being a problematic fix on a game that's already released, but maybe an option for other IPs in the future? To us, it's putting a thing in a place and why not? But I would imagine that would take a LOT of work since it would need to be in every single part of the game. And patching things through isn't easy, especially on Xbox and Playstation, where things go through their respective manufacturers first. 

 

Banter is not meant to be the primary vehicle for conveying a character's personality. You do that by talking to them, back at the homebase. Banter fills in the air time when you're roaming the map. If the soundtrack is muzak, then banter is the radio host.

 

I respectfully disagree. I think having development in banter is incredibly important and has always been a huge part of the character. You'd know nothing of Zevran's weird Wynne love if not for banter. Alistair & Morrigan's banter set the entire pace for not only their relationship with one another, but the entire plot twist with the OGB. The bulk of character development and opinions were formed/displayed in banter in DA2 as well. It's how you know how angry Anders is getting, how jovial Varric is about it all, and somethingsomethingbroodbroodbrood!Fenris. 

 

Can I just say that I like that this thread is throwing out suggestions to the problem? So many threads here get started up just to gripe about stuff. Few say "I'm griping, but how about this solution?" I don't like those threads - they offer nothing to us as fans. Thanks rising above and I hope you all do that often.

[Sjofn]

Banter is not meant to be the primary vehicle for conveying a character's personality. You do that by talking to them, back at the homebase. Banter fills in the air time when you're roaming the map. If the soundtrack is muzak, then banter is the radio host.

 

 

If it's not meant to be the primary vehicle for conveying their personalities, they really shouldn't hide so much of it in their banters, then.

[hong]

Not the primary vehicle but certainly a vehicle and not muzak, the OP has stated a nuance that is not 'muzak' and would be quite easily missed.

You can get the exact same nuance by doing Viv's companion quest.

[hong]

If it's not meant to be the primary vehicle for conveying their personalities, they really shouldn't hide so much of it in their banters, then.

None of it is hidden.