44 réponses à ce sujet

[ladyoflate]

I'm not sure why people seem to have unilaterally decided that Vivienne as Divine is 'status quo' when she's a mage and it says quite clearly that under her mages have both more freedom and responsibility in the Circles.

 

Her and Cassandra are both very much reform Divines to Leliana's complete reimagining. Cassandra reforms the Chantry mainly by changing the ways of the Templars/Seekers, Vivienne reforms the Chantry from the mage side.

 

Cassandra is, if anything, the most status quo of the three options, because the status quo has always been to approach things from a 'enhanced non-mages controlling mages' standpoint (whether mercifully or...not) rather than a 'regulating mages' standpoint, which is Vivienne's deal. Also, Vivienne's a mage Divine who doesn't think mages can do no wrong. That's revolutionary for both versions of the Chantry, tbh.

 

I realize that apparently the game guide lists them as such, but that doesn't mean it's true. Guide authors are as fallible as the rest of us. A more accurate way of listing them would be: Rebuild, Templar Reform, Mage Reform.

[d-boy15]

Yep, nothing will be the same for each divine, it just how much changes they bring it to chantry.

 

Vivienne - Improve circle life and reduce templar power over circle. 

 

Cassandra - Patching chantry bug while preserve the core of chantry. 

 

Leliana - Scrap all that and start over. 

 

And I believe there are more to each of them than mage/templar issue, for example Leliana will shift focus on charity, equality

and less about military. Vivienne seem like she gonna make mages to serve community more than before.  

[Akkos]

They all probably read that e-guide and thought "Status Quo" means no change.. When there is a mage divine in the sunburst throne.. And that mage will remain there.  

 

People just don't like Vivienne, with that being an excuse to hide the truth in their minds. And some are still questioning themselves for letting A soften Leliana or Cassandra in the sunburst throne.

[ladyoflate]

Yep, nothing will be the same for each divine, it just how much changes they bring it to chantry.

 

Vivienne - Improve circle life and reduce templar power over circle. 

 

Cassandra - Patching chantry bug while preserve the core of chantry. 

 

Leliana - Scrap all that and start over. 

 

And I believe there are more to each of them than mage/templar issue, for example Leliana will shift focus on charity, equality

and less about military. Vivienne seem like she gonna make mages to serve community more than before.  

 

Very true.

Leliana seems to be influenced by the popular fan perceptions of mages when the Tevinter Imperium is kind of ignored, and there's no thought to the fact most mages have no idea how to live outside towers.

 

Cassandra's basically just 'We'll be nicer, that solves everything' (which is not an unreasonable stance to take, I'm not trying to hate on Cassandra or Leliana).

 

Vivienne wants mages to be a part of the world at large, she doesn't want them cloistered by the Chantry (beyond what is necessary for learning, safety, and also because most mages, again, have no idea how to live outside towers) or cloistered in their own College of Enchanters. She's very mindful of making sure people who don't have freakin' superpowers don't get hurt, but also that they don't hurt mages.

 

TBH I like Vivienne's take on how to deal with the mage issue best, and Leliana's idea on how the Chantry needs to change its ideals. I love Cassandra dearly, but she's also very much a warrior, not a philosopher.

[Daerog]

Cassandra does talk about having the mages becoming more involved with society, like going to different places as healers or help solve some sort of problems.

[NotTheDarkKnightReturns]

Cassandra's reign is 'methadone' to the mage-templar problem, whereas Leliana's is 'cold turkey'. 

 

I personally believe Cassandra would be a better Divine, because of the three she is the best person. 

[keesio74]

I like Cass so far because it looks like she is most willing to try to understand the other point of view. Also in the early stages of the game, she is kinda confused and doesn't really know where to stand yet. That appeals to me too because that is how I feel.

[Aimi]

They all probably read that e-guide and thought "Status Quo" means no change..

That is what it means. Statvs qvo: "the way [it] was". Commonly taken from a longer phrase, statvs qvo ante bellvm, Latin shorthand for "the way it was before the war", i.e. a peace agreement that restores prewar borders, rights, and suchlike things.

[Sports72Xtrm]

In Vivienne's epilogue, the mages will rise in status for the moment that she is Divine. The templars are still addicted to lyrium and used as a leash to keep them in line by vivienne who is the head of the chantry and controls the lyrium trade and the mages in the circles, i.e., her loyalists sycophants will bear the fruits of her favor for as long as Vivienne is in power. Personally, I think by not addressing the can't leave the order and using lyrium as a leash problem of the templars will breed resentment and mages who don't like Vivienne will join in on that. Which could be a festering problem. Afterwards, a muggle Divine will succeed her and the mages loses their leverage, a mage divine who had mage interests, even thought they were self serving.

 

Cassadra's reforms does seem to be: "be more nicer", half measures to appease everybody but elthina thought like that and Kirkwall still went to ****. Let's hope Cassandra knows what she's doing. From what I gather, she tells the college of magi/templars if were granted independence, they are free to run the circle with out chantry oversight but I guess she doesn't keep to her word because the college of enchanters start infighting with her circle of magi and templars who aren't leashed again as cassandra promises could risk abusing the circles again and cassandra won't stand for it. If conscripted then the inquisition mages push for reforms and starts a shadow war undermining her authority or the templars are given independent authority through their association with the inquisition and could turn the inquisition evil after the inquisitors death. If the templars become seekers then the templars of terinfal redoubt are charged with being the old guard over the new circle prisons and the templar jailers. These new seekers at least are taught to be ethical and learn from past mistakes by reading their book of secrets- hopefully the lessons don't fly over their heads, of course who knows if Cassandra's ideals for her reforms will match the reality or if spite from either the new mages and templars about the circle reforms being too half-assed to make any sort of difference will have a discouraging affect.

 

Then there's Leliana's reforms which everyone knows the common fears about radical change. Mage freedom can go bad for Thedas and only the Inquisition and her Seekers of Truth acting as Thedas' Spectres will be the last line of defense to keep the peace. Yes it will probably have problems, bad mages, fights with bigotted nobles, and the Inquisition or the chantry will either mediate it or leave it to their fate or crumble and let the next posturing tyrannical force take over and try to impose their version of utopia. But leliana imo does seem to appeal or call to the desire to be good- aspect of the Andrastian faith, the one that inspires where as the other two only dictates. Whether that will make a difference is hard to to tell.

[SgtSteel91]

This has turned into Destroy vs Control vs Synthesis from Mass Effect 3, hasn't it?

[Qun00]

I call BS on the freedom line.

Were it true, joining the Circle would become optional. Rather, Vivienne crushes any attempt to live a different way, as she does with the College that is formed after she becomes Divine.

Whether it's faithful to every detail of the definition of Status Quo or not is irrelevant. The small changes made aren't any improvement.

The short leash placed on templars is only a result of her desire for power and ruling over both.

[d-boy15]

This has turned into Destroy vs Control vs Synthesis from Mass Effect 3, hasn't it?

Yep, same shiss different game.

Writers try to make everyone happy by have a multiple choices that covered everyone preferences. As it turned out, seem like that's not enough because many peoples want their choice the be the best and other that they disagree to be doom and gloom. So they can feel even more better with their.

[dragonflight288]

Cassandra's reign is 'methadone' to the mage-templar problem, whereas Leliana's is 'cold turkey'. 

 

I personally believe Cassandra would be a better Divine, because of the three she is the best person. 

 

Subjective opinion. 

 

Best person in your opinion, but not necessarily best person beyond all doubt. 

[Steelcan]

This isn't comparable to the ME3 ending fiasco yet, I haven't been called a genocide fetishist yet

[dragonflight288]

This isn't comparable to the ME3 ending fiasco yet, I haven't been called a genocide fetishist yet

 

Nor I accused of being in complete support of magic mind-control and slavery. 

[Steelcan]

Nor I accused of being in complete support of magic mind-control and slavery. 

I mean the game is still young, time enough for all that an more I suppose

 

Oh Auld Wulf where art thou?

[ladyoflate]

I was wondering when the Vivienne Hate Crew would pop up. Longer than I expected, actually.

[Jackums]

Cass is easily the most "status quo" of the three, yes. That can be a good or bad thing depending on who you ask.

[Hazegurl]

Viv doesn't actually believe half of what she says. She knows the right words to say to make people feel comfy. And what makes people feel comfy is mages in the circle. However, the mages can use that power and education to eventually achieve more power. I see more mages leaving the Circles under Viv than remaining in them. The Circles seem like they will become more of a symbol to placate the masses and the Temps will do as she says. Sure the party lasts for as long as she is Divine but by the time she is dead most mages would have gotten enough power to never see another Circle again and may actually have the power to stop any non mage Divine from sending them back. Actually, I see Viv including more and more mages in the Chantry who would then just appoint another mage divine anyway.

[keesio74]

Cass is gradual (and more mild) reform vs Leliana's radical change. I think which appeals more depends on where your own ideology lies. If you believe that vast radical change is the way to go, then Leliana's way is can be best. If you think gradual change makes change easier to swallow for the masses, Cass' way may work for you.

[Qun00]

Cassandra is, if anything, the most status quo of the three options, because the status quo has always been to approach things from a 'enhanced non-mages controlling mages' standpoint (whether mercifully or...not) rather than a 'regulating mages' standpoint, which is Vivienne's deal. Also, Vivienne's a mage Divine who doesn't think mages can do no wrong. That's revolutionary for both versions of the Chantry, tbh.

It's the opposite. Vivienne thinks the mages can do no right.

Back in Haven, she says the current Circles are "too permissive, in retrospect". Yup, the system that has devolved into a jailor and prisoner relationship apparently is already better than they deserve.

A mage Divine that serves none but herself does little for their plight.

[The Baconer]

It's the opposite. Vivienne thinks the mages can do no right.

Back in Haven, she says the current Circles are "too permissive, in retrospect". Yup, the system that has devolved into a jailor and prisoner relationship apparently is already better than they deserve.

A mage Divine that serves none but herself does little for their plight.

 

Did she really describe it like that? Interesting, I did not catch that.

 

I wonder, then, what is meant by mages receiving "more freedom and responsibility than ever before".

[dragonflight288]

It's the opposite. Vivienne thinks the mages can do no right.

Back in Haven, she says the current Circles are "too permissive, in retrospect". Yup, the system that has devolved into a jailor and prisoner relationship apparently is already better than they deserve.

A mage Divine that serves none but herself does little for their plight.

 

And yet as Divine she gives mages far more freedom and responsibility than ever before, and allows them positions in the Chantry. Leliana goes beyond that by dismantling the whole system cold turkey. 

[dragonflight288]

Did she really describe it like that? Interesting, I did not catch that.

 

I wonder, then, what is meant by mages receiving "more freedom and responsibility than ever before".

 

No, she isn't described. I just completed a playthrough where Vivienne on good terms with my Inquisitor and I conscripted the templars was made Divine. She gave mages far more responsibility and positions than ever, although Morrigan does say she was the only one who had any real power. 

[Qun00]

DB post