108 réponses à ce sujet

[Arisugawa]

Question for those more in the know than I.

 

It seems to be implied in Inquisition that Fiona is Alistair's mother (something that is apparently revealed off-camera in some novel I will never read so please don't recommend it as that already annoys the tar out of me). 

 

So...my question becomes, what happened to Goldanna's mother and apparent unborn (or perhaps born) sibling?

 

When exactly, does Goldanna's mother get involved in this supposed deception? I find it hard to believe that Maric, Eamon, and company just waited for some pregnant, unmarried woman to die in childbirth and then claim she was Maric's lover. Especially since Goldanna was convinced beyond all doubt that her mother was involved with Maric. Which implies her mother revealed her indiscretion to Goldanna. Goldanna went to the royalty (if she can be believed) and the story of her mother's death was spun there. So...she apparently thought her mother had been with Maric. And if it's a deception for Maric's benefit, that means the mother lied to her daughter in order to maintain the lie.

 

So...was this woman then murdered to maintain the deception? The child, dead as well? But even if murder was not involved, the logistics of this are still not clear to me. Maric, Eamon & company obviously knew that a child was going to be born, so...how exactly was this deception arranged?

 

 

[Br3admax]

A woman was died in childbirth giving a convenient excuse. The child she had is irrelevant. She was used to explain Marric. Goldanna was paid money and made assumptions from then on out. She could have even possibly been told that story to make it seem more factual. Fact is, Maric from what we know had no other lovers, and Fiona is canonically Alistair's mother, confirmed by a dev and Fiona herself I'm told. Really no getting around that. 

 

 

I can't explain how this is supposed to make sense, but I recommend reading the Calling....

[Arisugawa]

A woman was died in childbirth giving a convenient excuse. The child she had is irrelevant. She was used to explain Marric. Goldanna was paid money and made assumptions from then on out. She could have even possibly been told that story to make it seem more factual. Fact is, Maric from what we know had no other lovers, and Fiona is canonically Alistair's mother, confirmed by a dev and Fiona herself I'm told. Really no getting around that. 

 

 

I can't explain how this is supposed to make sense, but I recommend reading the Calling....

 

I have a moral opposition to including any focal narrative points in supplemental material. As such, I don't support any comics, novels, anime, etc, of any video game franchise. 

 

For all intents and purposes for me, if it isn't in the game itself, it doesn't exist and if the writers expect me to purchase the supplemental material to understand the events and characters of the games, that represents a failure of the game narrative as an independent entity. 

 

I'm not trying to say the writers of the novels or comics weave poor stories (I have not read them so I cannot judge), but I'm not going to read them. Ever.

 

It's like expecting me to read a series of Star Wars novels so I can make sense of the The Force Awakens when it is released.

 

The primary medium has to stand alone, in my opinion.

[Hanako Ikezawa]

Well, and this is just my interpretation of the events, but:

 

Fiona gives Alistair to Maric and Duncan who promise to watch over him with the promise keep his heritage a secret and keep him safe(both promises are broken. Way to go Duncan.)

Eamon, Maric's brother-in-law, agrees to care for Alistair so he is away from Denerim thus his heritage, but needs an excuse for why a baby suddenly appeared.

At around the same time, Goldana's mother and her child die in childbirth. Since the maid was well-loved by Eamon, he has Alistair take the place of her unborn child and promises to care for it in her memory. 

Goldana, distraught by the news and not believing the lies, goes to demand the truth but is turned away. 

[Arisugawa]

Well, and this is just my interpretation of the events, but:

 

Fiona gives Alistair to Maric and Duncan who promise to watch over him with the promise keep his heritage a secret and keep him safe(both promises are broken. Way to go Duncan.)

Eamon, Maric's brother-in-law, agrees to care for Alistair so he is away from Denerim thus his heritage, but needs an excuse for why a baby suddenly appeared.

At around the same time, Goldana's mother and her child die in childbirth. Since the maid was well-loved by Eamon, he has Alistair take the place of her unborn child and promises to care for it in her memory. 

Goldana, distraught by the news and not believing the lies, goes to demand the truth but is turned away. 

 

Hmmm....

 

I have a hard time accepting that Goldanna would believe that her mother had been with Maric if her mother had not spoken of it before hand. But I suppose that is possible. The bigger question for me, though, is what would Maric, Eamon & Company have done if Goldanna's mother or unborn child had not died.

 

It seems terribly convenient that they both did.

[Steelcan]

Hmmm....

 

I have a hard time accepting that Goldanna would believe that her mother had been with Maric if her mother had not spoken of it before hand. But I suppose that is possible. The bigger question for me, though, is what would Maric, Eamon & Company have done if Goldanna's mother or unborn child had not died.

 

It seems terribly convenient that they both did.

found another maid?

 

Its not liekly people dying in childbirth would be terribly uncommon

[Hanako Ikezawa]

Hmmm....

 

I have a hard time accepting that Goldanna would believe that her mother had been with Maric if her mother had not spoken of it before hand. But I suppose that is possible. The bigger question for me, though, is what would Maric, Eamon & Company have done if Goldanna's mother had not died.

 

It seems terribly convenient that she did.

Chances are just claim the baby was left on their doorstep. It was actually a somewhat common occurrence in medieval times. 

[Arisugawa]

found another maid?

 

Its not liekly people dying in childbirth would be terribly uncommon

 

Pregnant at the same time and died at roughly the same time to make the age of Alistair convincing? How many pregnant servants did Eamon have?

[Steelcan]

Pregnant at the same time and died at roughly the same time to make the age of Alistair convincing? How many pregnant servants did Eamon have?

I doubt it'd be that rare

[Arisugawa]

I doubt it'd be that rare

 

And I doubt it would be common enough that Maric and Eamon had multiple candidates that they could pick from all of appropriate terms of their pregnancies. Redcliffe doesn't seem to have that many people. Unless they were scouring all of Ferelden.

[Hanako Ikezawa]

And I doubt it would be common enough that Maric and Eamon had multiple candidates that they could pick from all of appropriate terms of their pregnancies. Redcliffe doesn't seem to have that many people. Unless they were scouring all of Ferelden.

Eamon didn't just have Redcliffe under his rule. He also has his estate in Denerim and the entirety of the Hinterlands. 

[Arisugawa]

Eamon didn't just have Redcliffe under his rule. He also has his estate in Denerim and the entirety of the Hinterlands. 

 

Yes, but how many of these women would have ever had access to Maric? A servant in the Arl's employ, specifically an Arl that is family to Maric, is very easy to rationalize. But some random woman in Redcliffe or Denerim that would never reason to meet an Arl much less the King? How many of them were pregnant and unmarried? Options may exist, but they may pose more problems than they would solve.

[Liec]

I have a moral opposition to including any focal narrative points in supplemental material. As such, I don't support any comics, novels, anime, etc, of any video game franchise. 

 

For all intents and purposes for me, if it isn't in the game itself, it doesn't exist and if the writers expect me to purchase the supplemental material to understand the events and characters of the games, that represents a failure of the game narrative as an independent entity. 

 

I'm not trying to say the writers of the novels or comics weave poor stories (I have not read them so I cannot judge), but I'm not going to read them. Ever.

 

It's like expecting me to read a series of Star Wars novels so I can make sense of the The Force Awakens when it is released.

 

The primary medium has to stand alone, in my opinion.

 

Fiona being Alistair's mother is not a focal narrative point though. It's more like a piece of trivia. The story makes just as much sense if you don't know about that.

[Hanako Ikezawa]

Yes, but how many of these women would have ever had access to Maric? A servant in the Arl's employ, specifically an Arl that is family to Maric, is very easy to rationalize. But some random woman in Redcliffe or Denerim that would never reason to meet an Arl much less the King? How many of them were pregnant and unmarried? Options may exist, but they may pose more problems than they would solve.

They didn't go around saying it was Maric's kid. Even Alistair didn't know for sure until Duncan confirmed it. Goldana just thought it was Maric's kid and turned out to be right. 

[Steelcan]

Yes, but how many of these women would have ever had access to Maric? A servant in the Arl's employ, specifically an Arl that is family to Maric, is very easy to rationalize. But some random woman in Redcliffe or Denerim that would never reason to meet an Arl much less the King? How many of them were pregnant and unmarried? Options may exist, but they may pose more problems than they would solve.

its not like people are going to be looking too closely at a bastard child with a dead mother, they can just claim she was a maid, or a server in the tavern

[Arisugawa]

its not like people are going to be looking too closely at a bastard child with a dead mother, they can just claim she was a maid, or a server in the tavern

 

So...she has no friends, family, etc, that would claim otherwise? That doesn't tend to work in tight-knit communities.

 

The Goldanna's mother explanation works and would not be highly questioned precisely because of where she is employed and the access she would have to the members of the nobility. 

 

And all of this supposes that Goldanna's mother never told anyone who the father was. It means she kept it quiet for reasons of her own the entire pregnancy unless she was paid to keep up the deception by Maric & Eamon.

[ctd757]

Nice they put a plot point in the books and don't seem to mention it in the game at all.

[Steelcan]

So...she has no friends, family, etc, that would claim otherwise? That doesn't tend to work in tight-knit communities.

 

The Goldanna's mother explanation works and would not be highly questioned precisely because of where she is employed and the access she would have to the members of the nobility. 

 

And all of this supposes that Goldanna's mother never told anyone who the father was. It means she kept it quiet for reasons of her own the entire pregnancy unless she was paid to keep up the deception by Maric & Eamon.

I think we are looking more deeply at this than we should

[Korva]

I have a moral opposition to including any focal narrative points in supplemental material. As such, I don't support any comics, novels, anime, etc, of any video game franchise. 

 

[...]

 

The primary medium has to stand alone, in my opinion.

 

I can't possibly thumbs-up this enough.

 

Yes, the issue of Alistair's parentage is a very minor one and far from plot- or character-critical, but on general principle I fully agree with you. It drives me nuts when companies appear to use games to fuel a buy-this, buy-that merchandise collection. Let the bleeding games stand for themselves with quality storytelling, characterization and continuity.

 

I think we are looking more deeply at this than we should

 

We fans do that a lot, yes. Discussing games in more depth can be immensely fun -- or immensely frustrating, depending on whether or not one knows when to step on the brakes and realize that sometimes a plot hole or continuity error is in fact a plot hole or continuity error and not yet another world-shakingly massive conspiracy revolving around one's current favourite character.

 

Me, I'd still prefer to just ignore that moron Fiona and go with DA:O's explanation of Alistair's parentage.

[Serza]

Yes, Fiona is Alistair's mother.

 

I recommend you read The Calling.

There. Free annoyance. You can thank me later.

[HuldraDancer]

This was something I am a bit curious on as well but more of on since Alistair is not really Goldana's brother then how did he even come to that conclusion that he was? I mean I suppose he was given false stories about it in order to be led to believe it but it just feels a little off to me can't quite explain why though, I'm probably looking too much into something. I also do not look at the things out side of the games mostly for lack of interest and really those two mediums should be separate in my opinion it would be silly and a bit stupid to have it where you need to look at the outside mediums in order to understand whats going on in the game.

[Knight of Dane]

I have a moral opposition to including any focal narrative points in supplemental material. As such, I don't support any comics, novels, anime, etc, of any video game franchise. 

 

For all intents and purposes for me, if it isn't in the game itself, it doesn't exist and if the writers expect me to purchase the supplemental material to understand the events and characters of the games, that represents a failure of the game narrative as an independent entity. 

 

I'm not trying to say the writers of the novels or comics weave poor stories (I have not read them so I cannot judge), but I'm not going to read them. Ever.

 

It's like expecting me to read a series of Star Wars novels so I can make sense of the The Force Awakens when it is released.

 

The primary medium has to stand alone, in my opinion.

 

It doesn't matter what your opinion is, it's a part of the canonical narrative media. You don't have a say in that.

[Sifr]

So...she has no friends, family, etc, that would claim otherwise? That doesn't tend to work in tight-knit communities.

 

The Goldanna's mother explanation works and would not be highly questioned precisely because of where she is employed and the access she would have to the members of the nobility. 

 

And all of this supposes that Goldanna's mother never told anyone who the father was. It means she kept it quiet for reasons of her own the entire pregnancy unless she was paid to keep up the deception by Maric & Eamon.

 

You're assuming that she's not travelling with the retinue of Maric, as was fairly common for servants in the service of nobility in the medieval period in our world and seems to be the case in Dragon Age as well?

 

Iona from Origins is a good example of this. She travels with Lady Landra to Highever in the Human Noble origin, despite her daughter remaining behind in the Denerim Alienage, where she's presumably being raised by family. Given that Landra's husband is Bann Loren of Caer Oswin, it's entirely possibly that Iona normally resides there and her job has kept her apart from her daughter for a while?

 

Taking that into consideration, it'd not be far-fetched that Goldanna hadn't seen her mother for some time if she lived in Denerim and her mother lived in Redcliffe? The lack of anyone else knowing who the father was might have been because she kept quiet because it was someone important (another noble) or because it was a one-night-stand that left her up the duff (it happens), so she didn't want to be shamed publicly? She might also have kept quiet because she was trying to hide the pregnancy to keep her job, since having a pregnant servant isn't going to be something many nobles would want?

 

A young Goldanna, showing up to find her mother died in childbirth and being fed a BS story and given enough hush money to make it seem legit, seems like a plausible coverup to me? Plus Goldanna doesn't seem like the sort of person who'd be all that interested in the details, she probably was too busy gobbing off at them about the death of her mother and her "brother" (which to be fair, is understandable), that half the money given was to get her to shut up and go away?

[Arisugawa]

It doesn't matter what your opinion is, it's a part of the canonical narrative media. You don't have a say in that.

 

Sure I do, at least in terms of the content that I have experienced. Which are the games and the games only.

 

Fiona's conversation with the Inquisitor at Skyhold, which amounts to

 

Fiona: Did you get to speak to King Alistair?

Inquisitor: No, he wasn't really in the mood.

Fiona: Oh, well I hope he's happy. I knew his father, Maric. He would have wanted that.

Inquisitor: Want me to arrange a meeting?

Fiona: No, no, it's too late for that. Just the ramblings of an old woman.

 

is not exactly an admission or confirmation of the events of The Calling unless you have read the book.

 

And since I have not, I'm taking it at face value.

 

Until it is spelled out more clearly in the games themselves, it did not happen in the Thedas that I know.

 

Same with Wynne's death, that whole mess with Maric still being alive, etc.

[Sifr]

Sure I do, at least in terms of the content that I have experienced. Which are the games and the games only.

 

*snip*

 

Until it is spelled out more clearly in the games themselves, it did not happen in the Thedas that I know.

 

Same with Wynne's death, that whole mess with Maric still being alive, etc.

 

Yeah, but certain events from the books did happen, regardless, all of which we saw borne out in the game itself?

 

Varric tells the Iron Bull that he met the new Arishok (Sten) just as he did in the comics. Cole tells us that he went to Adamant, killed the Lord Seeker and that Wynne died to save Evangline, all of which happened in "Asunder". Mihris, Michel and Imshael all refer to "The Masked Empire" and it's events. Most of the Mage-Templar war and the Orlesian plot have callbacks to the novels, so dismissing them basically is refuting half the game itself?

 

I agree with you that it's a pain in the arse sometimes to have a film explain nothing and leave it up to secondary material to fill in the blanks, like Nero's motivation and most of the backstory for Star Trek (2009), most of the plot of Sunshine and, if we're to be fair, pretty much all of 2001: A Space Odyssey.

 

And it can become confusing at points when we get into the nitty-gritty of lore discrepancies, since some of those situations happened because of certain characters being alive, when in various world-states, they might be dead? Still, most of them are small and can be assumed to have happened anyway, just slightly different, much like how Hawke's Warden ally is a constant when it comes to their presence in Inquisiton, despite whether that Warden being Loghain/Stroud/Alistair is obviously a variable from one world-state to another? To quote Bioshock: Infinite and the topic of constants and variables, "There's always a man, there's always a city, there's always a lighthouse".

 

But I digress, Fiona is Alistair's mother and the game alludes to it heavily in that conversation, even if it's not overtly stated outright.