108 réponses à ce sujet

[Knight of Dane]

Sure I do, at least in terms of the content that I have experienced. Which are the games and the games only.

 

Fiona's conversation with the Inquisitor at Skyhold, which amounts to

 

Fiona: Did you get to speak to King Alistair?

Inquisitor: No, he wasn't really in the mood.

Fiona: Oh, well I hope he's happy. I knew his father, Maric. He would have wanted that.

Inquisitor: Want me to arrange a meeting?

Fiona: No, no, it's too late for that. Just the ramblings of an old woman.

 

is not exactly an admission or confirmation of the events of The Calling unless you have read the book.

 

And since I have not, I'm taking it at face value.

 

Until it is spelled out more clearly in the games themselves, it did not happen in the Thedas that I know.

 

Same with Wynne's death, that whole mess with Maric still being alive, etc.

 

Yes it did. You may feign ignorance on behalf of your characters, that's part of the role play, but canonical events are not a choice just because you are special and didn't read it. The source material is there no matter how much of it you experience.

 

The French Revolution happened, but I didn't experience it so it must not have!

[Sifr]

But the events of Asunder cannot happen as written if Wynne died at the Circle Tower and Shale was never activated, not without massive explanations as to how Wynne was still alive, Shale somehow activated without the control rod in the Warden's possession, and why she, Shale, and Leliana would have any familiarity with each other.

 

See one of my earlier posts for how those events can have happened and how the plot could have remained the same without Wynne's involvement? And since all Shale does is get the message about Tranquility being reversible sent out across the Sending Stones, she didn't really need to be present either, since that important task really could have been done by anyone?

 

Yes, because things that happen in the Fade can definitely be taken at face value. How can Alistair know that it it was Maric and not something pretending to be Maric, similar to whatever was wearing Justinia's face? And since, IIRC, Alistair wasn't physically in the Fade, that makes it even more suspect.

 

Actually, this kinda proves my point that these things still happened, just differently. Alistair in the comics was the King of Ferelden, not a Warden, yet he still went on that mission in this alternate world-state.

[DinkyD]

Retcon happened.

 

Anyone other than Goldana's mother being Alistair doesn't make sense, based on what we were presented with in DA:O. The issue as I understand it, is that David Gaider did not write those portions of DA:O. He later decided to go in a different route, and in doing so shitcanned another writer's work.

 

It was a mistake in my opinion. They should have left it alone and kept Goldanna's mother as Alistair's mother, as originally intended at the time DA:O released. Not only does the retcon leave this bizarre encounter with a fake family unexplained, it also causes timeline issues. If you recruit Loghain in DA:O he has dialogue where he states that Maric said he he didn't publicly acknowledge Alistair as his son for fear of turning Rowan (the queen) into a concubine in the eyes of the people. The problem? This only works if Goldanna's mother is Alistair's mother. The fling with Fiona occurs long after Rowan had died.

 

Ah, so is that what happened concerning the retcon? I'd assumed that DG had written all of Alistair's dialogue, so I thought he had bizarrely rewritten his own work.

 

But yes, huge mistake. It's the lack of respect shown to DA:O that saddens me.

[Arisugawa]

Yes it did. You may feign ignorance on behalf of your characters, that's part of the role play, but canonical events are not a choice just because you are special and didn't read it. The source material is there no matter how much of it you experience.

 

The French Revolution happened, but I didn't experience it so it must not have!

 

Completely different frame of reference.

 

You're speaking of a real life event. I am speaking to fictional accounts of which I am the audience.

 

It would be similar to a Star Wars novel reveal that the whole conversation between Shmi Skywalker and Qui-Gon Jinn was incorrect. Anakin was not some kind of midi-chlorian induced pregnancy. She had a tryst with Jedi Master Syfo-Dias, who upon realizing what he had done, used the Force to wipe memory.

 

Sure...this happened in the novel. It's canon in the novel.

 

But it's never referenced again in the films, so is it really canon?

[MissScarletTanager]

Completely different from of reference.

 

You're speaking of a real life event. I am speaking to fictional accounts of which I am the audience.

 

It would be similar to a Star Wars novel reveal that the whole conversation between Shmi Skywalker and Qui-Gon Jinn was incorrect. Anakin was not some kind of midi-chlorian induced pregnancy. She had a tryst with Jedi Master Syfo-Dias, who upon realizing what he had done, used the Force to wipe memory.

 

Sure...this happened in the novel. It's canon in the novel.

 

But it's never referenced again in the films, so is it really canon?

Wait... back up. What Star Wars novel is this? I'm curious o-o

[Addai]

Retcon happened.
 
Anyone other than Goldana's mother being Alistair doesn't make sense, based on what we were presented with in DA:O. The issue as I understand it, is that David Gaider did not write those portions of DA:O. He later decided to go in a different route, and in doing so shitcanned another writer's work.
 
It was a mistake in my opinion. They should have left it alone and kept Goldanna's mother as Alistair's mother, as originally intended at the time DA:O released. Not only does the retcon leave this bizarre encounter with a fake family unexplained, it also causes timeline issues. If you recruit Loghain in DA:O he has dialogue where he states that Maric said he he didn't publicly acknowledge Alistair as his son for fear of turning Rowan (the queen) into a concubine in the eyes of the people. The problem? This only works if Goldanna's mother is Alistair's mother. The fling with Fiona occurs long after Rowan had died.

That's the first I've heard that. What's your source?

And I don't see any conflict with Goldanna. Her mother died in childbirth while she was away, they put rumors out that it was the king's bastard, and she was trying to ride a gravy train, end of story.

As for Loghain, originally Alistair was intended to be older and a cynical type, but the initial focus groups were negative so they made him younger. You can handwave Loghain's dialogue by saying that he's talking about Rowan's memory. I suspect that originally Katriel was going to be Alistair's mother and that was changed when he was made younger.

[Arisugawa]

Wait... back up. What Star Wars novel is this? I'm curious o-o

 

Hypothetical.

 

I fabricated that plot as an example of why things should never be revealed in supplemental material.

[BioWareM0d13]

That's the first I've heard that. What's your source?

And I don't see any conflict with Goldanna. Her mother died in childbirth while she was away, they put rumors out that it was the king's bastard, and she was trying to ride a gravy train, end of story.

As for Loghain, originally Alistair was intended to be older and a cynical type, but the initial focus groups were negative so they made him younger. You can handwave Loghain's dialogue by saying that he's talking about Rowan's memory. I suspect that originally Katriel was going to be Alistair's mother and that was changed when he was made younger.

 

I read it on the BSN, so...a grain of salt may be needed. But I've seen it posted before that Alistair's quest with Goldanna was not written by Gaider.

 

In either case the retcon causes timeline issues. I'm not sure handwaving Loghain's dialogue as referring to Rowan's memory quite works, because why would a woman who is long dead be remembered as a concubine? Maric taking a new lover should in no way affect her memory, because she is no longer around to be cheated on. Maric at that point is an unwed man, and the dialogue only makes sense if Maric still has a wife. That is an indication that Goldanna's mother originally was intended to be Alistair's mother IMO, as Maric does not even meet Fiona until long after Rowan had died.

 

Players can also come up with all sorts of head canon as to why Goldanna's family is presented as Alistair's family, but it requires coming up with a convoluted and unnecessary conspiracy.

[Br3admax]

Alistair has always the same age, so that doesn't even make sense, HSF. Rowan was always dead for five years before baby Alistair hit the scene. What Loghain says is Alistair would take away from Rowan's memory, but honestly that could just be some excuse Loghain himself came up with, Loghain being deeply in love with her. The fact is, Origins made this goof and Gaider wrote a book that made another goof, this time in what year it takes place in, so he just corrected it out of text. 

[Addai]

I read it on the BSN, so...a grain of salt may be needed. But I've seen it posted before that Alistair's quest with Goldanna was not written by Gaider.
 
In either case the retcon causes timeline issues. I'm not sure handwaving Loghain's dialogue as referring to Rowan's memory quite works, because why would a woman who is long dead be remembered as a concubine? Maric taking a new lover should in no way affect her memory, because she is no longer around to be cheated on. Maric at that point is an unwed man, and the dialogue only makes sense if Maric still has a wife. That is an indication that Goldanna's mother originally was intended to be Alistair's mother IMO, as Maric does not even meet Fiona until long after Rowan had died.
 
Players can also come up with all sorts of head canon as to why Goldanna's family is presented as Alistair's family, but it requires coming up with a convoluted and unnecessary conspiracy.

Loghain and Rowan were lovers. He gave her up so that Ferelden could have her. It's very plausible that he'd be upset over Maric banging some maid (or elven Grey Warden mage, even worse) even five years after her death, adding a bastard to complicate her son's succession.

The conspiracy is not that convoluted. It's exactly what Fiona asks Maric to do at the end of The Calling. There are some timeline mixups in DAO and the novels, but it's not a big deal.

[Ellyria]

I'm suddenly having flashbacks to Final Fantasy VIII where people refused to believe that

Spoiler

Laguna was Squall's father

because it was never outright said, only alluded to.

 

Sorry, nothing to add, just wanted to throw that out there. Carry on.

[Eliastion]

I'm suddenly having flashbacks to Final Fantasy VIII where people refused to believe that

Spoiler

Laguna was Squall's father

because it was never outright said, only alluded to.

 

Sorry, nothing to add, just wanted to throw that out there. Carry on.

As I see it the problem people have is not with Alistair's parentage never being outright said - it's with the fact that it WAS outright said and the canon version seems like some conspiracy theory with things hardly adding up in light of everything we know/heard about the issue in-game.

Usually when you have a big revelation, it should give you the feeling of "so thet's what's going on, how did I not figure it out myself". When, on the other hand, standard reaction is more along the lines of "wtf is with that asspull contradicting everything I've heard"... well. You get the picture

If there were lots of small details not adding up with Goldanna's and Alistair's history, some comments from Loghain that wouldn't make sense if it was all there is to it, some vague comments suggesting that Alistair would be better off mingling with knife-ears in the Alienage rather than shooting for the throne... The revelation would be great then. But it's the other way 'round, with comments and timeline making sense for Alistair-Goldanna's-brother but not really for Alistair-Fiona's-son.

[Ellyria]

As I see it the problem people have is not with Alistair's parentage never being outright said - it's with the fact that it WAS outright said and the canon version seems like some conspiracy theory with things hardly adding up in light of everything we know/heard about the issue in-game.

Usually when you have a big revelation, it should give you the feeling of "so thet's what's going on, how did I not figure it out myself". When, on the other hand, standard reaction is more along the lines of "wtf is with that asspull contradicting everything I've heard"... well. You get the picture

If there were lots of small details not adding up with Goldanna's and Alistair's history, some comments from Loghain that wouldn't make sense if it was all there is to it, some vague comments suggesting that Alistair would be better off mingling with knife-ears in the Alienage rather than shooting for the throne... The revelation would be great then. But it's the other way 'round, with comments and timeline making sense for Alistair-Goldanna's-brother but not really for Alistair-Fiona's-son.

 

Alistair's parentage never was mentioned outright, in the books or the game, if I'm remembering correctly. There were quite a few 'Fiona's son is not Alistair, so the baby must be a third Theirin son' debates going on back when The Calling was released. The devs were the ones that confirmed the Alistair-Fiona connection.

 

Goldanna's story about Alistair being her brother plus what Alistair had been told was vague, so vague that if later on it was going to be revealed as something different entirely, it could be. The problem is that it was expanded on in The Calling (released about half a year after DAO), not DAO itself, making such allusions to Alistair's mother not being who he thinks she was difficult in-game. I haven't read The Calling, but I've heard enough about how certain things don't match up from the book to the game, so that's... disappointing.

 

By the way, I'm agreeing with you; Alistair's parentage was sloppily handled. What's done is done, however. 

[Eliastion]

(...)The problem is that it was expanded on in The Calling (released about half a year after DAO), not DAO itself, making such allusions to Alistair's mother not being who he thinks she was difficult in-game. I haven't read The Calling, but I've heard enough about how certain things don't match up from the book to the game, so that's... disappointing.(...)

The order in which things appear isn't that important - if Alistair's mother was intended to be an elf mage, there could've been allusions completely lost on unaware player - but still present as foreshadowing. As it is, however, it seems painfully obvious that Alistair just suddenly switched mothers mid-franchise and the whole cover-up story is just a sloppy attempt at putting it all together...

 

Still, I'm not going to live in denial and it's definitly not something important enough for me to try and override what I know about the world with some head-canon

(not to say there are no such things - for example, as long as it doesn't become a major plot-point I can no longer ignore, I refuse to accept lore-changing idea that Dalish put in extra effort to actually get rid of extra mages rather than re-distributing them, true, but for completely opposite reasons: to make sure every clan has enough of them)

[Illyria]

The order in which things appear isn't that important - if Alistair's mother was intended to be an elf mage, there could've been allusions completely lost on unaware player - but still present as foreshadowing. As it is, however, it seems painfully obvious that Alistair just suddenly switched mothers mid-franchise and the whole cover-up story is just a sloppy attempt at putting it all together...

 

Still, I'm not going to live in denial and it's definitly not something important enough for me to try and override what I know about the world with some head-canon

(not to say there are no such things - for example, as long as it doesn't become a major plot-point I can no longer ignore, I refuse to accept lore-changing idea that Dalish put in extra effort to actually get rid of extra mages rather than re-distributing them, true, but for completely opposite reasons: to make sure every clan has enough of them)

 

Alistair has a fastination for magic and magical items.  If made king he's also very pro-mage in DA2 cameo (having even gone against the Chantry to try and grant a Surana/Amell Warden's request for the Circle's independence).

 

I agree it was poorly handled, but the timeline for DAO is a complete mess in general.  However, I don't think his mother was changed during the writing.  Mostly because I love the idea that Bioware planned for a half Orlasian elf blooded son of a mage to a possible candiate for ruler of Ferelden.

[Ellyria]

The order in which things appear isn't that important - if Alistair's mother was intended to be an elf mage, there could've been allusions completely lost on unaware player - but still present as foreshadowing. As it is, however, it seems painfully obvious that Alistair just suddenly switched mothers mid-franchise and the whole cover-up story is just a sloppy attempt at putting it all together...

 

That's what I was getting at. If they decided to leave the Goldanna thing vague for later but hadn't decided exactly who Alistair's mom was until after the game was released, it makes it hard to go back and put in all those little tidbits you mentioned. Now, if a dev confirms that Fiona was intended to be Alistair's mother all along... yikes.

[DinkyD]

It's an odd thing, but the change in Alistair's parentage has been tinged with a bit of sadness for me. I liked thinking that those children playing in Denerim square were some of his nieces and nephews. It's only for the first time today that I actually bothered to notice that there were 5 of them, thus confirming them as Goldanna's. It had always cheered me to think they might look him up one day when they got older. Why wouldn't they be interested; he a hero of the blight. Oh well!

[BioWareM0d13]

Alistair has always the same age, so that doesn't even make sense, HSF. Rowan was always dead for five years before baby Alistair hit the scene. What Loghain says is Alistair would take away from Rowan's memory, but honestly that could just be some excuse Loghain himself came up with, Loghain being deeply in love with her. The fact is, Origins made this goof and Gaider wrote a book that made another goof, this time in what year it takes place in, so he just corrected it out of text. 

 

The dialogue by Loghain implies that Rowan was still living when Maric carried on his dalliance with Alistair's mother. It suggests infidelity on Maric's part.  This was not an issue as of Dragon Age: Origins, where Goldanna's mother was still Alistair's mother. It only became an issue after Gaider shifted Alistair's parentage to Fiona, as the book where Fiona is introduced has their first meeting occur after Rowan had died. In contrast there was no timeline for Maric meeting Goldanna's mother, and it was entirely possible for her to have had a fling with a a still-married Maric. Of course now we can hand wave Loghain's dialogue away by saying that he was lying to the Warden about what Maric said, but I doubt that was the intent at the time it was written. It has all the hallmarks of being a poorly executed retcon.

 

Also Alistair's age is only determined by the Fiona canon. He never states his age in DA:O. Prior to the retcon it would be entirely possible for Goldanna's mother to have had an affair with Maric before Rowan died, and for Alistair to be a couple years older than he is according to the current canon.

[dyti]

Retcon happened.

 

Anyone other than Goldana's mother being Alistair doesn't make sense, based on what we were presented with in DA:O. The issue as I understand it, is that David Gaider did not write those portions of DA:O. He later decided to go in a different route, and in doing so shitcanned another writer's work.

 

It was a mistake in my opinion. They should have left it alone and kept Goldanna's mother as Alistair's mother, as originally intended at the time DA:O released. Not only does the retcon leave this bizarre encounter with a fake family unexplained, it also causes timeline issues. If you recruit Loghain in DA:O he has dialogue where he states that Maric said he he didn't publicly acknowledge Alistair as his son for fear of turning Rowan (the queen) into a concubine in the eyes of the people. The problem? This only works if Goldanna's mother is Alistair's mother. The fling with Fiona occurs long after Rowan had died.

 

I agree Fiona as Alistair's mother was never intended mostly based on this entry about Alistair in the origins codex  "Eamon sheltered the boy to hide his existence from Queen Rowan, Eamon's sister." 

[Addai]

Alistair's parentage never was mentioned outright, in the books or the game, if I'm remembering correctly. There were quite a few 'Fiona's son is not Alistair, so the baby must be a third Theirin son' debates going on back when The Calling was released. The devs were the ones that confirmed the Alistair-Fiona connection.
 
Goldanna's story about Alistair being her brother plus what Alistair had been told was vague, so vague that if later on it was going to be revealed as something different entirely, it could be. The problem is that it was expanded on in The Calling (released about half a year after DAO), not DAO itself, making such allusions to Alistair's mother not being who he thinks she was difficult in-game. I haven't read The Calling, but I've heard enough about how certain things don't match up from the book to the game, so that's... disappointing.
 
By the way, I'm agreeing with you; Alistair's parentage was sloppily handled. What's done is done, however. 

The order in which things appear isn't that important - if Alistair's mother was intended to be an elf mage, there could've been allusions completely lost on unaware player - but still present as foreshadowing. As it is, however, it seems painfully obvious that Alistair just suddenly switched mothers mid-franchise and the whole cover-up story is just a sloppy attempt at putting it all together...

Where is all this painful obviousness? To me it was always painfully obvious that the baby at the end of The Calling (which came out before DAO was released, not after) was Alistair.
 

I agree Fiona as Alistair's mother was never intended mostly based on this entry about Alistair in the origins codex  "Eamon sheltered the boy to hide his existence from Queen Rowan, Eamon's sister."

This is simply false. Gaider said that he thought that it would be obvious based on The Calling. Which... it is. There were timeline problems which was complicated by the fact that originally Alistair was going to be older.

[Ellyria]

Where is all this painful obviousness? To me it was always painfully obvious that the baby at the end of The Calling (which came out before DAO was released, not after) was Alistair.

 

 

Okay, point, I found somewhere that The Calling was released June 2010 whereas everywhere else said October 2009, so I dunno how I managed to find the one reference that was wrong. Good job, Elly! Other than that, DAO had been in production for five years, so it's not like Alistair's parentage in the game was slapped together after the book was written, hence all the inconsistencies (which several posters have pointed out). There's a clear disconnect between the book and the game.

 

As for it being "painfully obvious" that Fiona and Maric's son was Alistair, I direct you back to what I said about Final Fantasy VIII. Not everyone is going to automatically assume that Alistair was said child, no matter how painfully obvious it was to you. Add in the stuff from the game that contradicts this (the codex entry, the timeline, Loghain's comments, etc) and it's no wonder people thought there was a third Theirin son.

[DinkyD]

The dialogue by Loghain implies that Rowan was still living when Maric carried on his dalliance with Alistair's mother. It suggests infidelity on Maric's part.  This was not an issue as of Dragon Age: Origins, where Goldanna's mother was still Alistair's mother. It only became an issue after Gaider shifted Alistair's parentage to Fiona, as the book where Fiona is introduced has their first meeting occur after Rowan had died. In contrast there was no timeline for Maric meeting Goldanna's mother, and it was entirely possible for her to have had a fling with a a still-married Maric. Of course now we can hand wave Loghain's dialogue away by saying that he was lying to the Warden about what Maric said, but I doubt that was the intent at the time it was written. It has all the hallmarks of being a poorly executed retcon.

 

Also Alistair's age is only determined by the Fiona canon. He never states his age in DA:O. Prior to the retcon it would be entirely possible for Goldanna's mother to have had an affair with Maric before Rowan died, and for Alistair to be a couple years older than he is according to the current canon.

 

Don't forget that Alistair does in fact, place his age. He has dialogue saying that the Arl took him in "even though his father cheated on his sister to produce him" You can't cheat on a dead woman. So both Loghain and Alistair independently believe he was born while the Queen was alive.

 

 

Okay, point, I found somewhere that The Calling was released June 2010 whereas everywhere else said October 2009, so I dunno how I managed to find the one reference that was wrong. Good job, Elly! Other than that, DAO had been in production for five years, so it's not like Alistair's parentage in the game was slapped together after the book was written, hence all the inconsistencies (which several posters have pointed out). There's a clear disconnect between the book and the game.

 

As for it being "painfully obvious" that Fiona and Maric's son was Alistair, I direct you back to what I said about Final Fantasy VIII. Not everyone is going to automatically assume that Alistair was said child, no matter how painfully obvious it was to you. Add in the stuff from the game that contradicts this (the codex entry, the timeline, Loghain's comments, etc) and it's no wonder people thought there was a third Theirin son.

 

Even without the obvious contradictions, I think you could still believe that the child wasn't meant to be Alistair. None of what Alistair tells you about his past in DAO seems to tie in with his mother being Fiona imo

 

Why did he end up at the Arl's if he wasn't born there? Was Maric dumping his child on his dead wife's bachelor brother really the best option? Was he really the only person he could trust? Wasn't Maric concerned that his son was sleeping in a hayloft? And above all, why on earth was Alistair sent to the Chantry? Did Maric really think that was what Fiona would want? (Or was Fiona OK with the Chantry then?) Or, what explains Maric's (and Duncan's for that matter) apparent amnesia about Alistair?

 

I thought the forgotten bastard shoved in a hayloft that could go on to be King/hero was a great character arc. Unfortunately, the retcon seems to be an attempt to rewrite him more towards your standard fantasy child-of-exceptional-parents-that-is-watched-over-from-afar-by-important-people-including-his-father-special-princeling. I just hope there are no further retcons down this line.

[Eliastion]

(...)

 

As for it being "painfully obvious" that Fiona and Maric's son was Alistair, I direct you back to what I said about Final Fantasy VIII. Not everyone is going to automatically assume that Alistair was said child, no matter how painfully obvious it was to you. Add in the stuff from the game that contradicts this (the codex entry, the timeline, Loghain's comments, etc) and it's no wonder people thought there was a third Theirin son.

I believe this "painfull obviousness" part was directed to me as I considered it painfully obvious that Alistair being Fiona's child was a retcon (a bad one).

 

If the timeline of book and game is, indeed, different, then it is possible that that parentage was, indeed, planned from the start. However, if that is the case, then the result is even sadder - they managed to create a big plothole and what seems to be a retcon with huge consistency problems (Maric supposedly cheating on his dead wife being where Alistair came from) without actually retconning anything.

Regardless of how obvious it was meant to be (based on Calling that is not part of the game, with Gaider himself saying - if I'm not mistaken - that the games are the only truly canonical material), Alistair being Fiona's son is repeatedly contradicted in-game with rather flimsy out-of-game rationalization of how it was supposedly possible (and even with that rationalization the timeline doesn't make sense).

 

Still, out of all the lore discrepancies in the series, I don't really care all that much for this one. It's a matter of parentage of a character that possibly died twice already... the matter of his mother being Fiona or not is unlikely to ever become important in the games and doesn't have much impact on Thedas as a whole, so I can pretty much just shrug and go on with my game  

To tell the truth, the fact that Arbor Wilds seem to look so jungle-like despite being located far to the South is, for me personally, a problem of much greater caliber.

[Steelcan]

Its not impossible for it to be a colder rainforest such as those found in high altitudes in South America or New Zealand's south island

[Eliastion]

Those would still be equivalents of southern Europe, which translates to Rivain... perhaps Antiva. I can buy Arlathan being a jungle, but not Arbor Wilds. AND the geoghraphy suggests it should be pretty dry there, too.

Good thing we have magic in this world and we can just rationalize that it's all Mythal's blessing, she was connected to the sea and had some of that motherly giver of life aspect, after all... But I would still prefer the area to look its latitude.