108 réponses à ce sujet

[Addai]

Don't forget that Alistair does in fact, place his age. He has dialogue saying that the Arl took him in "even though his father cheated on his sister to produce him" You can't cheat on a dead woman. So both Loghain and Alistair independently believe he was born while the Queen was alive.

I don't recall that line, and I've listened to Alistair's dialogue a lawt. But in any case, Alistair also says his father died before his mother. He never knew his family and has heard contradictory things about them, and is lying to the Warden about his parentage. So, yeah.
 

Even without the obvious contradictions, I think you could still believe that the child wasn't meant to be Alistair. None of what Alistair tells you about his past in DAO seems to tie in with his mother being Fiona imo

Yes, it's possible to believe that, but it's not the obvious thing. For one thing, the contradictions in the game dialogue cannot be true. Alistair's age is confirmed, and we know when Rowan died. It's not possible that he was born during her lifetime. The problem is with the timeline, not with who his mother was. Even if Alistair was son of a chambermaid, the problems in the dialogue about him would still be there. Nothing is solved, in other words, by saying he was originally meant to be son of a chambermaid.
 

Why did he end up at the Arl's if he wasn't born there? Was Maric dumping his child on his dead wife's bachelor brother really the best option? Was he really the only person he could trust? Wasn't Maric concerned that his son was sleeping in a hayloft? And above all, why on earth was Alistair sent to the Chantry? Did Maric really think that was what Fiona would want? (Or was Fiona OK with the Chantry then?) Or, what explains Maric's (and Duncan's for that matter) apparent amnesia about Alistair?
 
I thought the forgotten bastard shoved in a hayloft that could go on to be King/hero was a great character arc. Unfortunately, the retcon seems to be an attempt to rewrite him more towards your standard fantasy child-of-exceptional-parents-that-is-watched-over-from-afar-by-important-people-including-his-father-special-princeling. I just hope there are no further retcons down this line.

No one says it was a good plan. In fact I think the story is meant to show how good intentions can go very wrong, and Maric is never presented as a good father. Eamon is an even worse guardian. But yes, as I said up above, what happens is exactly what Fiona and Maric plan to do at the end of The Calling. The baby is to be told his mother is dead and raised as a human but outside Maric's line of succession. This is because Fiona wants to spare him her fate as a Grey Warden and the stigma of being elf-blooded, and Maric wants to spare him the burdens of being born to rule, and also protect the succession since he and Rowan had given up so much to ensure the young kingdom got on its feet after the rebellion. Eamon was close to the court and trusted. Duncan, who was Fiona's friend, was obviously also in the know and looking out for the baby.

 

It all fits. There isn't a contradiction here.

[DinkyD]

I don't recall that line, and I've listened to Alistair's dialogue a lawt. But in any case, Alistair also says his father died before his mother. He never knew his family and has heard contradictory things about them, and is lying to the Warden about his parentage. So, yeah.
 

Yes, it's possible to believe that, but it's not the obvious thing. For one thing, the contradictions in the game dialogue cannot be true. Alistair's age is confirmed, and we know when Rowan died. It's not possible that he was born during her lifetime. The problem is with the timeline, not with who his mother was. Even if Alistair was son of a chambermaid, the problems in the dialogue about him would still be there. Nothing is solved, in other words, by saying he was originally meant to be son of a chambermaid.
 

No one says it was a good plan. In fact I think the story is meant to show how good intentions can go very wrong, and Maric is never presented as a good father. Eamon is an even worse guardian. But yes, as I said up above, what happens is exactly what Fiona and Maric plan to do at the end of The Calling. The baby is to be told his mother is dead and raised as a human but outside Maric's line of succession. This is because Fiona wants to spare him her fate as a Grey Warden and the stigma of being elf-blooded, and Maric wants to spare him the burdens of being born to rule, and also protect the succession since he and Rowan had given up so much to ensure the young kingdom got on its feet after the rebellion. Eamon was close to the court and trusted. Duncan, who was Fiona's friend, was obviously also in the know and looking out for the baby.

 

It all fits. There isn't a contradiction here.

 

 

How is Alistair being the son of a servant not obvious over Fiona in DAO, when all relevant dialogue and codex in the game points to it? There are no time line issues or dialogue problems in DAO as written at all, it's perfectly consistent about his mother, they are only introduced if Fiona is his mother, because she didn't meet Maric until two years after Rowan was dead. Otherwise there's no problem at all.  

 

In the Fiona scenario, Alistair thinks he's at least two years older than he actually is and thinks he is the son of a Redcliffe servant. Either Alistair is mistaken about his age or when the Queen died, an event which wouldn't be unrecorded. He continues to believe this despite tracing Goldanna, All this is neatly solved by him being the son of said servant who gave birth when Rowan was alive. Makes Goldanna fit, Loghain's dialogue fit, Alistair's dialogue fit, codex fit. 

 

The dialogue occurs at Redcliffe before the Landseet. You ask Alistair if he feels he can back out. An option will get him to talk about his loyalty to Eamon and that line I quoted iirc (As an aside, that's good writing there I feel, it says a lot about how Alistair's attitude to Eamon came about)

 

Obviously it doesn't all conflict as DAO was already written; they could get some things to fit but not others.

[myahele]

Lol at people still denying that Fiona is Alistair's mom. It may've been possible before DAI, but now it's all but confirmed.

 

Fiona  (in game) cares a bit too much about Alistair when you speak to her

[Addai]

How is Alistair being the son of a servant not obvious over Fiona in DAO, when all relevant dialogue and codex in the game points to it? There are no time line issues or dialogue problems in DAO as written at all, it's perfectly consistent about his mother, they are only introduced if Fiona is his mother, because she didn't meet Maric until two years after Rowan was dead. Otherwise there's no problem at all.  
 
In the Fiona scenario, Alistair thinks he's at least two years older than he actually is and thinks he is the son of a Redcliffe servant. Either Alistair is mistaken about his age or when the Queen died, an event which wouldn't be unrecorded. He continues to believe this despite tracing Goldanna, All this is neatly solved by him being the son of said servant who gave birth when Rowan was alive. Makes Goldanna fit, Loghain's dialogue fit, Alistair's dialogue fit, codex fit.

And Loghain? He's missing two years, too?
 
If you're having to stretch to fit the maid scenario, then it doesn't fit perfectly. It's a timeline issue that's present whether Alistair is Fiona's son or the maid's.
 

Lol at people still denying that Fiona is Alistair's mom. It may've been possible before DAI, but now it's all but confirmed.
 
Fiona  (in game) cares a bit too much about Alistair when you speak to her

I don't think they're denying it, they're saying it's a late retcon, versus something that was intended in development, and that it doesn't fit the established facts as well as the now confirmed canon.

[thats1evildude]

So...my question becomes, what happened to Goldanna's mother and apparent unborn (or perhaps born) sibling?

 

When exactly, does Goldanna's mother get involved in this supposed deception?

 

More than likely Goldanna's mother and the child died during the birthing process and they just swapped in Alistair.

 

They probably didn't "wait" for some expecting mother to die. Maybe there was even some kind of arrangement with the mother beforehand to raise Alistair. But her death kinda kiboshed those plans. Women died in childbirth all the time before the advent of modern medicine.

[DinkyD]

And Loghain? He's missing two years, too?
 
If you're having to stretch to fit the maid scenario, then it doesn't fit perfectly. It's a timeline issue that's present whether Alistair is Fiona's son or the maid's.
 
I don't think they're denying it, they're saying it's a late retcon, versus something that was intended in development, and that it doesn't fit the established facts as well as the now confirmed canon.

 

 

I'm not having to stretch at all to fit the maid scenario.  If you just played DAO you'd have no doubt that Alistair's mother was a servant who gave birth while Rowan was alive. There is no timeline issue. Nowhere does it suggest that Goldanna's mother gave birth after Rowan was dead.

[Steelcan]

Good gods people...

 

I don't care for Fiona at all, but it doesn't change the fact that she has been confirmed by Word of God to be Alistair's mother, and damn the timeline

[Addai]

I'm not having to stretch at all to fit the maid scenario.  If you just played DAO you'd have no doubt that Alistair's mother was a servant who gave birth while Rowan was alive. There is no timeline issue. Nowhere does it suggest that Goldanna's mother gave birth after Rowan was dead.

Except that Alistair was born after Rowan died. The developers gave us his age- he's 5 years younger than Cailan, born 2 years after Rowan died. In fact Gaider made it a point to correct a timeline mistake in the novels in order to make this clear. You can continue to insist this isn't so, but it is.

I don't have any doubt at all- that the story the developers confirmed as true is what actually happened and is the most plausible.

[Solbranthius]

The cynic in me thinks it was done (poorly I might add) to make Alistair seem more exotic since he has a pretty major following. Shall I place bets as to whether or not Cullen will also be awkwardly revealed as being Elfblooded as well in the future?

 

With that said I'm also not a huge fan of major plot points being limited to outside material.

[Fireheart]

Warden and Loghain dialogue about Maric and Alistair:

 

W: Why didn't he acknowledge Alistair?

 

L: He nearly did. Maric was never one to avoid his duty, and given his preference he would have acknowledged his son no matter the circumstance. But he had more than his honor to think of. It would have ruined Rowan, after all. She'd be reduced to a concubine in the eyes of our neighbors, and put Cailan's status as heir in question. So Maric made the hard choice. Eamon offered to raise the boy, and that was that. 

 

W: That's it? Honor and politics, and no concern for Alistair?

 

L: What do you think would have become of Alistair if Maric had claimed him? He would have been the bastard prince, and a continual reminder to Rowan of Maric's infidelity. At least with Eamon, Alistair had a childhood. 

 

I don't really care much for this inconsistency(and now I actually like the fact Fiona is alive and is Alistair's mommy), although I was very confused at first. Shortly after I bought the game, and nearly right before I met Fiona in-game, I looked at Alistair's profile on the DA wikia and it listed Fiona as his mom and had a pic of her. My mind was blown because the game(Origins) constantly said that Alistair's mom was dead, I was freaking out... Then was trying to wrap my head around Goldanna. I was thinking Fiona was also Goldanna's mother, but Goldanna knows for sure that her mother is dead, yet Fiona is right here in front of me. Why is she here in Orlais, not in Denerim with her daughter Goldanna? Or was Fiona kicked out of Ferelden and therefore couldn't tell Goldanna she was alive, or is Fiona really not Goldanna's mother at all? But then why does Alistair think Goldanna is his sister? kfvbnjrtyvgyhxygbv It was too much for my brain so I just stopped thinking about it. I've begun reading The Calling, only on chapter 5 right now, I'm hoping this can clear some things up. >.<

 

Also, one of the OP's question I believe was, why was there conveniently a pregnant maid that they could use as being Alistair's mother. Well, maybe it wasn't exactly "convenient", maybe more coincidental. They probably didn't have a plan to explain Alistair's birth, but by some stroke of luck, a pregnant maid dies and they took the opportunity to make up the story of Alistair being the maid's child. What happened to the real child? Maybe it was stillborn, maybe they give it away to someone else, maybe they kept it and raised it as well.

 

I find it a little hard to believe this inconsistency exists. What with The Calling coming out a month before the game was released. Surely they could've made some minor tweaks here and there to make it so that Alistair's true origins were more hazy, and open to interpretation/speculation, and made what Goldanna said seem less credible. Also, I'm confused by what everyone here is talking about timeline problems? Where is there a problem in the timeline? As far as I can see, everything adds up.

[Addai]

There was initially a mistake in The Calling that made Alistair, as I recall, nine years younger than Cailan. Gaider corrected that number to five. The timeline mistake is that orginally Alistair was intended to be older (changed because his character was made younger and less experienced so as not to upset the male players who didn't like him questioning their actions in a focus group) so some of the dialogue still refers to him as being born during Rowan's lifetime.

It's my theory, unsubstantiated, that he was originally meant to be Katriel's son, though- not random Redcliffe chambermaid's.

[DarkKnightHolmes]

Alistair is full Ferelden and human and Fiona is just trying to use him for money by pretending to be his mother just because she slept with Maric once or twice.

 

/My Canon.

[Ryzaki]

Good gods people...

 

I don't care for Fiona at all, but it doesn't change the fact that she has been confirmed by Word of God to be Alistair's mother, and damn the timeline

 

To be fair DAO's timeline is all over the place at the best of times.

[Ellyria]

 

No one says it was a good plan. In fact I think the story is meant to show how good intentions can go very wrong, and Maric is never presented as a good father. Eamon is an even worse guardian. But yes, as I said up above, what happens is exactly what Fiona and Maric plan to do at the end of The Calling. The baby is to be told his mother is dead and raised as a human but outside Maric's line of succession. This is because Fiona wants to spare him her fate as a Grey Warden and the stigma of being elf-blooded, and Maric wants to spare him the burdens of being born to rule, and also protect the succession since he and Rowan had given up so much to ensure the young kingdom got on its feet after the rebellion. Eamon was close to the court and trusted. Duncan, who was Fiona's friend, was obviously also in the know and looking out for the baby.

 

Geez, the adults in charge of Alistair really screwed the pooch in that case; he becomes a Grey Warden no matter what and possibly King. The half-elf thing is still buried (for now). Remind me never to leave my illegitimate children in the care of Eamon and Duncan. Sheesh.   

[Addai]

Geez, the adults in charge of Alistair really screwed the pooch in that case; he becomes a Grey Warden no matter what and possibly King. The half-elf thing is still buried (for now). Remind me never to leave my illegitimate children in the care of Eamon and Duncan. Sheesh.   

Yes. Yes they did.   Though Duncan saved him from Eamon's negligence, really. Becoming a Grey Warden was a good step for Alistair after it was clear he was warrior material and didn't want to be a templar. It would have theoretically kept him out of the succession, too, barring the odd Blight + abandonment of the king's army.

[Ryriena]

There was initially a mistake in The Calling that made Alistair, as I recall, nine years younger than Cailan. Gaider corrected that number to five. The timeline mistake is that orginally Alistair was intended to be older (changed because his character was made younger and less experienced so as not to upset the male players who didn't like him questioning their actions in a focus group) so some of the dialogue still refers to him as being born during Rowan's lifetime.

It's my theory, unsubstantiated, that he was originally meant to be Katriel's son, though- not random Redcliffe chambermaid's.

I just headcanoned this as fact, since stupid males didn't like to be challenged of their man hood, I mean the authority figure then it got changed so he show less experience, which is a stupid reason to change said character.

[Fireheart]

There was initially a mistake in The Calling that made Alistair, as I recall, nine years younger than Cailan. Gaider corrected that number to five. The timeline mistake is that orginally Alistair was intended to be older (changed because his character was made younger and less experienced so as not to upset the male players who didn't like him questioning their actions in a focus group) so some of the dialogue still refers to him as being born during Rowan's lifetime.

It's my theory, unsubstantiated, that he was originally meant to be Katriel's son, though- not random Redcliffe chambermaid's.

 

What is your reason for thinking Katriel was to be Alistair's mother?

[Addai]

What is your reason for thinking Katriel was to be Alistair's mother?

Since Alistair was originally going to be older.

[MissScarletTanager]

Chances are that Bioware and Gaider aren't going to explore Alistair's lineage, or a possible meeting with Fiona in the future, in anywhere but the books anyway. If we see anything in the games, it'll be in smaller sidequests because of two reasons:

Spoiler

In DAO, Alistair can be executed by Anora or killed killing the Archdemon. In DAI, he can possibly die in the Fade against the nightmare demon, though I wouldn't put it passed Bioware to possibly bring back the one left in the Fade, as we never actually see them die. They did it to Leliana after all (though the Fade wasn't involved)

[Zetheria Tabris]

 

But since we're on that aspect of the supplemental material - if you have Alistair executed during the Landsmeet, how did this even happen? How can this be canon if everything that is happening in DAO-DAI for me runs contrary to it? Is it canon only within the context of the novels, or am I supposed to assume that because I put Anora on the throne at the cost of Alistair's life, that I'm playing something that is not canon?

 

Did you know that Bioware has their own canon? In their canon, Alistair is king. So for the canon they have for the books and default world state of the games (like if you're a new player and haven't played the previous games, so you don't have a save import) he wouldn't be executed.

[Shechinah]

(to Arisugawa) You... You made me hope. I went through the Star Wars Wikipedia page for all of the characters, the canon and non-canon section before I read your comment. You made me hope! *cries*

[Efvie]

Man, I’d hate to see how the OP reacts when learning about all the world-building notes the writers have that aren’t even published.

[BartDude52]

Personally, I just headcanon that Goldanna's mother is also Alistair's mother, as was originally presented in Dragon Age: Origins. Fiona being his mother just doesn't sit right with me, especially when you consider that it contradicts what we were originally presented with in the first game.

 

Bioware may say that Fiona is Alistair's mother, but not to me she's not. It's a minor plot point anyway, that I doubt is going to be relevant in any future games, so I'm free to believe that. As far as I'm concerned, game lore trumps book lore (in this case, at least).   

[MACharlie1]

Personally, I just headcanon that Goldanna's mother is also Alistair's mother, as was originally presented in Dragon Age: Origins. Fiona being his mother just doesn't sit right with me, especially when you consider that it contradicts what we were originally presented with in the first game.

Bioware may say that Fiona is Alistair's mother, but not to me she's not. It's a minor plot point anyway, that I doubt is going to be relevant in any future games, so I'm free to believe that.

Ok. Its your brain. Doesn't mean you're right but whatever helps you sleep at night (I guess...though I don't think anyone's losing sleep over this! XD)

[BartDude52]

@MACharlie1: Oh, I'm certainly not losing sleep over it! It's just a minor plot point that I don't agree with nor like, and with which I prefer to headcanon differently. I was just adding in my proverbial 'two cents', is all.