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[Precursor Meta]

Why are people calling the Warden's plan to kill the Old Gods a plan without a purpose?

The purpose is to save the world. But can you blame them? Is it really their faults? Solas seems to have the answers, but he doesn't tell anyone! So who is to blame?

[MACharlie1]

This is an interesting thought as well. Though, if this is the case, it would make me wonder what they have all been doing these past years. From Morrigan's Witch Hunt dialogue about Keiran, along with Andraste's accomplishments (if she is an OGB), it seems like the Old God vessels have some great destiny. If it happens that the Dark Ritual only saves the warden's life, and the old gods are re-born anyway, then perhaps the dark ritual is also what allows the God soul to retain some memory of their original identity, and if the dark ritual is not completed, then the old-god soul forgets who they are, hence why they haven't been some great historical figure (or perhaps they have been, and we've just yet to find the connection.) A possibility, either way. 

His name is Sandal. 

[Morroian]

Well; its not a given Solas is an elven god.

 

He is Fen'harel, thus he is an elven god. The exact nature of those gods is up for debate though. 

[Quyk Sylvyr]

One of the conversations between Varric and Solas has always intrigued me.  At one point while discussing the usefulness of Wardens, Solas remarks that the Wardens have at least bought everyone time.  Bought time for what?  Does he believe something else will happen once the old gods are dead?

[Antergaton]

Two souls in one body thing is Riordan's GW conjecture but we have evidence that is false. Corypheus makes a soul ride ****** the entire time he takes over a GW and he's fine. Similarly (though one might contest they are souls) demons coexist with souls in one body.

And most importantly the OGB is 2 souls in one body. Unless you think Kieran is missing a soul at the end of DAO.

 

Who said Corypheus had a soul anymore and/or who says the soul of the person he takes over exists at all after he does?

 

See, I thought about the Kieran as I thought the idea is that the newly created child essentially had no soul at all at one point and gains one early in pregnancy, instead the ritual forces a soul to a specific place. It's more likely that Kieran now has no soul at all than always had 2 else the ritual would never work at all. Althought I think that is more an oversight in writing.

[In Exile]

Given that the Wardens' basic idea - to kill the remaining Old Gods before they can start a Blight - is good, they get actually criticized for not having been proactive before, and Solas gives no reason for his anger that's even remotely convincing, I see three possibilities:

(1) Solas knows more than we do and doesn't tell us. That's the good option, since it means there are interesting revelations in store.
(2) It was drama for its own sake and the writer didn't bother to think further than that. Unfortunately, after ME3 I can't rule out this possibility.
(3) Solas' lines were written by someone who thinks the idea is obviously stupid and didn't see a need for an explanation.

Which one is it? No idea, but I hope they come up with something interesting, regardless of whether it's been on their mind already or not. A connection between the Old Gods and the elven gods appears not too far-fetched, given that Mythal is depicted as some sort of human/dragon hybrid in her temple.

There's a fourth option: Solas thinks that killing someone without understanding their role and purpose is idiotic. He's very big on knowledge and seeking it out. He always disapproved of a kind of recklessness when you don't think things through. That's just IMO his regret over what he did when he imprisoned his compatriots.

I think his line is literally all he means: killing all the OGs might not stop the blight. It might make things worse. Doing this and risking so much without any idea about the payoff is moronic.

[Il Divo]

There's a fourth option: Solas thinks that killing someone without understanding their role and purpose is idiotic. He's very big on knowledge and seeking it out. He always disapproved of a kind of recklessness when you don't think things through. That's just IMO his regret over what he did when he imprisoned his compatriots.

I think his line is literally all he means: killing all the OGs might not stop the blight. It might make things worse. Doing this and risking so much without any idea about the payoff is moronic.

 

Still, at this point, I'm just curious what he expects Thedas to have done as an alternative. It would be interesting if he did turn out to be right, but I suspect most people wouldn't look too much farther into back up plans for killing giant corrupted dragons. 

[In Exile]

Still, at this point, I'm just curious what he expects Thedas to have done as an alternative. It would be interesting if he did turn out to be right, but I suspect most people wouldn't look too much farther into back up plans for killing giant corrupted dragons.

He expects Thedas to try and research an alternative. There's a big difference between killing an OG when it rises as an AD and seeking it out while raising a spirit army in an almost insane blood magic ritual.

[_Aine_]

Why is he angry?  

 

Options:  

 

1) We have no freaking idea really.  We are just guessing.

 

2)  He knows, and isn't about to tell you because Reasons. 

 

3)  He is angry because history makes him so.  Imagine you lived your life, then 1000 years later your descendants have a warped version of the truth of your life and times that they call gospel and live it, while at the same time living and allowing themselves to be enslaved, lesser than their ancient kin. Yeah, you'd be pissed.  Wardens just want to kill in order to contain what they don't understand because it is an immediate threat instead of contemplating the long term reason and effects.  It makes Solas pissy.  He's a sensitive sort. lol 

 

4)  Our understanding of the Taint, the Old Gods and the Maker are just totally wrong.  Perhaps what we think will contain it, will ultimately strengthen it.  He is pissed because everyone is too stupid to even contemplate an alternative. 

 

5) Solas doesn't ever seem to like opinion based on fear or lack of foresight, or weakness based on careful avoidance for diplomacy sake alone.  He likes helping when the cause is just.  He tends to be a secularist of sorts who thinks humanities version of "heritage" is warped and shortsighted and doesn't do justice to the actual past as he sees it or the future as they need it to be.   

 

6) Solas is a unique snowflake, yes, living the dream.  It's not easy being a snowflake = angst.  

[Dayze]

He is Fen'harel, thus he is an elven god. The exact nature of those gods is up for debate though. 

 

 

Well; it kind of depends how you look at it, Flemeth has a piece of mythal in her but she still seems to retain most of her original personality and still seems to view Mythal as "other" like when she says she will avenge her at the shrine.

[myahele]

Fen'Harel is kin to both the Elvhen gods and the Forgotten Ones. 

 

Could it be that the Old Gods are similar to Cory's dragon (contain elf god soul). I think it was in DAO that mentioned how straged that the Old Gods call to be released, but once the Darkspawn finds them they become tainted and how it was ironic

[xnarcosysx]

Because they are the elven gods.

[Aren]

He expects Thedas to try and research an alternative. There's a big difference between killing an OG when it rises as an AD and seeking it out while raising a spirit army in an almost insane blood magic ritual.

What can you do? We are dealing with the wardens afterall, when they find a solution (US and the joinig are  extreme) they do not try  to search any alternative.

Before of the 3rd and 4th blight they have done nothing in terms of researchs about the old gods

[Zarathiel]

What can you do? We are dealing with the wardens afterall, when they find a solution (US and the joinig are  extreme) they do not try  to search any alternative.

Before of the 3rd and 4th blight they have done nothing in terms of researchs about the old gods

 

You state that like researching the old gods is some simple thing that the wardens just choose not to do because they're lazy.

 

1. The only records of the Old Gods that exist are in Tevinter, and those texts would have a religious bent making them next to useless for an actual fact-finding mission. Any elven record of them would either be lost somewhere in the wilderness or destroyed by the Elvhen Civil War or the Imperium's subsequent conquest.

 

2. The most senior Wardens supposedly know where the Old God prisons are so they could presumably lead an expedition through the Deep Roads to find them. But wait, the Deep Roads are crawling with millions of Darkspawn and there are, at best, a couple thousand wardens spread across the entirety of Thedas. Even if the wardens could convince every single nation in Thedas to back them on such an expedition (and they couldn't because that would be sending at minimum hundreds of thousands of soldiers to their deaths) there's no guarantee an army even of that size even could get through to an Old God prison.

 

So, in the light of the facts that A. There are no reliable records on the Old Gods, and B. Studying one up close is nigh impossible due to the ludicrous amount of darkspawn between them and the wardens, how the hell are they supposed to go about studying them?

 

There is a third option, but it's even more impossible than the first two. And that option is for Solas and/or Flemythal to stop being so unnecessarily mysterious for two seconds and actually tell people, namely the wardens, what's up with the Blight since they're the only two with seemingly any insight into how it was really created.

 

I find it funny how you and In Exile think the Wardens are stupid for not researching the Blight or the Old Gods more. I'm sure plenty of wardens and some non-wardens throughout the years have attempted researching these things. The problem is that their capabilities are extremely limited. Waiting for the next Blight, and then sacrificing themselves to end it is really about all they can do.

[ThreeF]

I find it funny how you and In Exile think the Wardens are stupid for not researching the Blight or the Old Gods more. I'm sure plenty of wardens and some non-wardens throughout the years have attempted researching these things. The problem is that their capabilities are extremely limited. Waiting for the next Blight, and then sacrificing themselves to end it is really about all they can do.

 

I think you are missing the possibility that there is something very shady going on in the highest echelons of Warden Order.

[MACharlie1]

Morrigan states it outright that something is going on at Weisshaupt in the epilogue.

[Zarathiel]

I think you are missing the possibility that there is something very shady going on in the highest echelons of Warden Order.

 

That's true, but not in any way relevant to the point I was trying to make. All that does is add yet another barrier to research.

 

My post was directed at Aren and to a lesser extent In Exile for claiming the Wardens are idiots for not doing more research on the Old Gods and my point was "How the frack do you even research Old Gods?!"

[ThreeF]

Morrigan states it outright that something is going on at Weisshaupt in the epilogue.

It also becomes very obvious after you meet the controlled by Erimond wardens, they have red eyes, while the ones participating in Divine's sacrifice don't.

[ThreeF]

No, the points I brought up are impossible barriers for the Wardens to overcome and are independent of a conspiracy within the Warden Order. All that does is add yet another barrier to research.

Provided they actually  want to do it. I mean someone like HoF or some other less included in the grand scheme of things might want to, but this also could be the case of "nope, we know how things work, no need to poke it,  just follow orders".
 

(i'm sort of agreeing with you about it not being just "stupidity")

[Antergaton]

Fen'Harel is kin to both the Elvhen gods and the Forgotten Ones. 

 

Could it be that the Old Gods are similar to Cory's dragon (contain elf god soul). I think it was in DAO that mentioned how straged that the Old Gods call to be released, but once the Darkspawn finds them they become tainted and how it was ironic

 

Here's a thought. Cory was able to live on because of part of his soul in a dragon right? What if he got the idea from an Old God. Not the Old God giving them the idea but the Old God is the same type of thing, except in this case for the Elven gods. That is why Femeth can just respawn if killed (see DA2) and why Solas doesn't want the Old Gods killed, because killing them means he loses his immortality.

 

EDIT: Oh, just thought, Flemeth has daughters which willingly give their life right? Cory possessed other bodies with taint in them, so maybe the same thing happens when Flemeth does her thing with her daughters too...

 

 

 

Wild theories are fun, right?

[Zarathiel]

Here's a thought. Cory was able to live on because of part of his soul in a dragon right? What if he got the idea from an Old God. Not the Old God giving them the idea but the Old God is the same type of thing, except in this case for the Elven gods. That is why Femeth can just respawn if killed (see DA2) and why Solas doesn't want the Old Gods killed, because killing them means he loses his immortality.

 

EDIT: Oh, just thought, Flemeth has daughters which willingly give their life right? Cory possessed other bodies with taint in them, so maybe the same thing happens when Flemeth does her thing with her daughters too...

 

 

 

Wild theories are fun, right?

 

Plus Corypheus didn't really get the idea anywhere, since Hawke kills him right after he wakes up, but he just goes right into Larius/Janeka. So it's just something he does. 

[Antergaton]

Plus Corypheus didn't really get the idea anywhere, since Hawke kills him right after he wakes up, but he just goes right into Larius/Janeka. So it's just something he does. 

 

I'd presume his dragon is alive and well somewhere in the world before Hawke meets him, infact I'd say the dragon is alive and well when he is first found and imprisoned all those years ago. Possing Larius or Janeka is just his way of escape the prison.

[Hawklyn Starblade]

IIRC Corphius was the High Preist of Dumat, just as all the magister who entered the GC were the respective HP of the Tevinter Panethon. Their is adwarven codex that is an account of an encounter of 3 of these tainted magister in the deep roads, where 2 are arguing and fight, and one kills the other and the third takes off deeper into the deep.

 

Also the game heavily implies the Elvan "gods" were not gods, but something else, something unknown or not seen again since eldar times.The Romans worshipped the Greek panethon but changed the names, their is speculation Zuess is the god of christian religion etc, so its not beyond the realm of possibility that Tevinter took the Elvan panethon as their gods.

 

Yet then their is the Maker, as well, possibly an over god, who is above all panethons, or the creator, with the rest being his children, Cole states the Maker is 'far away' in a conversation  as well.

 

As to Solas, i don't trust him and believe he is an threat as well, who may have to be put down in the future, nor do i believe Dalish lore is wrong on his true nature either especialy after all the chaos and destruction he caused in DA:I. He initialy condems Blackwell for not take responsibility for his actions, yet neither does Solas, whos actions are much worse and on a larger scale.

[Zarathiel]

I'd presume his dragon is alive and well somewhere in the world before Hawke meets him, infact I'd say the dragon is alive and well when he is first found and imprisoned all those years ago. Possing Larius or Janeka is just his way of escape the prison.

 

He only got the dragon recently, since it's been corrupted by Red Lyrium, and that stuff hasn't been seen on the surface before DA 2. He basically made his own Archdemon to say to the world "I'm not beneath Dumat anymore, Dumat's beneath ME!"

[Ieldra]

There's a fourth option: Solas thinks that killing someone without understanding their role and purpose is idiotic. He's very big on knowledge and seeking it out. He always disapproved of a kind of recklessness when you don't think things through. That's just IMO his regret over what he did when he imprisoned his compatriots.

I think his line is literally all he means: killing all the OGs might not stop the blight. It might make things worse. Doing this and risking so much without any idea about the payoff is moronic.

The thing is: he could've said that without giving up any of his secrets, but he didn't. He doesn't appear to be the type who wouldn't explain things if he could, so why didn't he give us a convincing reason? If the only reason is that the writers don't want us to have some critical piece of information, they damaged Solas' character integrity to make it so.

Anyway, from the Wardens' perspective the basic idea - kill the remaining Old Gods before they can trigger the next Blight - seems sound. They already have killed five and it didn't have any world-shaking side effects that offset ending the Blights. I say evidence is very much on their side. Solas acting as if they'd lost all reason makes no sense.