Does Combat Roll provide and i-frame instance? I couldn't tell from the video and, honestly, haven't used it that often in MP.
No guaranteed invincibility, however enemies tend to miss as they're targetting where you used to be. Homing attacks will still hit you, so different tactics are required for those (cover, and a very specific circular manuever).
I'd be glad to replace my PBTM and Griffon Bow plus Thunderstrike for a Sulevin blade ;/
As for a Combat Roll / Mighty Blow / Charge build I'd take Pommel Strike or Earthshattering Strike.
I also love leveling up Katari, mostly because the good skills are low on the tree.
I've grown to dislike War Horn because it lies down the second tree where worse passives roam. Plus I can't stand slow animation. I even stopped using the bugged fear passive, though sometimes I pick it - when it works it's a lot of fun. But you certainly can live without it.
Also, Combat roll gives you an ability to end each Charging Bull with style! When you go Charging Bull -> Combat Roll it looks like your Katari accidentaly stepped on his shoelaces or something.
Templars don't draw aggro. I'm lucky to meet good people, and I'm grateful having them as friends.
I actually prefer when there's aggro on me. That simplifies where I need to lure the enemy and charge / mighty blow them, or where I need to CR out to dodge their damage. Controlling the flow of battle is #1 on any skilled player's list of things to do.
The Templar or other players were drawing aggro in that match, the enemy just ran past you most of the time. Your video and thread is fine for showing what a Katari can do with a good team and players that play together, it by no means shows how great a katari is in a pug game when you have no other tanky type player.
The Templar or other players were drawing aggro in that match, the enemy just ran past you most of the time. Your video and thread is fine for showing what a Katari can do with a good team and players that play together, it by no means shows how great a katari is in a pug game when you have no other tanky type player.
Of course enemies behave according to their aggro rules (something I need to write a post about actually), but Templars have no AoE taunts and do not pull aggro away. Enemies tend to run past Templars as well for other targets (if they are not killed). I've played enough Templar to know this very well.
In this particular team composition, enemies tend to bee line toward the archer or elementalist. The Ele has firewall to panic them away, the Archer however... well complained of dying multiple times. We had no keeper. Bear that in mind. No keeper, on Perilous difficulty, with Katari. Still won. Only one personal death, because I made a target prioritization team movement timing mistake, and subsequently took three arrows I didn't need to. I should've learned after the first, or even the second. Brutes are low priority, archers are high.
I've played in pug games too, but I make videos as when it is convenient for me. There is no typical player. There is only you. If you're here, and you're legitimately learning how to play (katari or anything), you're better than the rest.
By no means does this demonstration video show everything there is to Katari. It is mere demonstration. The video is a glimpse of my 'typical' nights, laughing and having fun.
Had many successful runs as a lvl 7 Elementalist yesterday in a PuG Perilous with an Archer, a Reaver, and a Katari to round out the team. At one point the Reaver switched to Katari as well. The other 3 players certainly had respectable skill, but I suspect the almighty lvl 7 Barrier (fully upgraded, of course) made it a lot smoother than it would have been otherwise.
You don't need to have a Barrier on you 24/7 for it to make a huge impact; as long as it's on you during crunch time (Hopefully you're not the one getting crunched.)
Point being, yes Katari is viable on Perilous, but without some damage absorption (Barrier), CC, or aggro management (a tank on your team), your only hope is to play very conservatively. This means relying on hit and runs, lots of hiding behind corners, and maybe Combat Roll spam. The video showcases this very well. Doing this makes Perilous manageable, but ultimately it's all time spent not killing things.
I would have no complaints if Katari were a high skill, high reward class, where a talented Katari player could truly outshine other classes. Unfortunately, that doesn't seem to be the case. Instead, we're most often forced to sacrifice output for (minimal) survivability. As things currently stand, a player skilled enough to roll Perilous Katari would do much better with almost any other class (team composition notwithstanding).
without some damage absorption (Barrier), CC, or aggro management (a tank on your team), your only hope is to play very conservatively. This means relying on hit and runs, lots of hiding behind corners, and maybe Combat Roll spam. The video showcases this very well. Doing this makes Perilous manageable, but ultimately it's all time spent not killing things
Aggro management is not specific to tanks, but playing conservatively is true for all classes if you have none of the above in Perilous. If you have no CC, taunts, barrier or direct damage evasion, you must play sneaky and ambush the enemy.
Successful Ambush tactics are technically more downtime, but take less time overall because the time to kill required is much less. I challenge you to try timing a walking bomb line of sight pull vs a AW that charges in and spams spirit blade. The former kills everything in less than 10 seconds, the latter is still SB'ing the first target at 10 seconds.
I would have no complaints
I would, because it is amusing to do so, just about other specifics.
Point being, yes Katari is viable on Perilous
Aha, my gauntlet is thrown and answered to the Anti-Katari.
team composition notwithstanding
Team Composition always matter. You don't fight in a vacuum, unless you intend to solo. Also, better isn't always kill efficiency, but on the meta-level, 'fun' factor. Katari is 'fun' because there is variety and tension in the fight. If guard were as OP as fade shield, it would not be as fun (ok ok, it might). I have a reaver. It kills stuff fast with the right allies, and does terribly with the wrong ones. Ok, I lie, I still do fine, just not as nearly as well with terrible people in the group (I let uncooperative pugs die for good reason).
where a talented Katari player could truly outshine other classes
sacrifice output for ... survivability
I would actually do better with the Katari given his better mobility & survive-ability skills in clutch situations, than I would reaver, if I had terrible people in my group. Leading the enemy where you want them to be is producing results not sacrificing anything.
I assume you didn't look at the team results at the end. I had highest overall score, and highest kills. Didn't count how many times I rezzed others.
http://youtu.be/ubd037Eg7ew?t=15m20s
Here's the results at time 15 minutes 20s. Over 50 kills, 7.5k exp, beating out even the Ele, bronze kill streak. I've had higher (10+ ks's, 70+ kills, etc), I've had worse. High Risk High Reward though? Definitely.
Players unwilling to communicate & learn will never do well regardless of class, and yes some kits have a higher learning & gear curve than others... but the gauntlet is thrown. Katari is Perilous viable, and that cannot be denied as I've demonstrated it.
What would your base constitution, cunning and willpower be from promotions at the time this video was made?
Not once did I say Katari is not "perilous viable". I said as much, directly. Nor am I anti-Katari. I have never voted to kick or advocated kicking a Katari player. I play Katari myself. I am also keenly aware some players have more skill/experience than others. And yes, in the hands of a skilled player, all 12 classes available to us are usable on Perilous.
But it would be disingenuous to claim that settles the discussion. The issue is balance. This includes ease-of-play, learning curve, risk/reward, fun factor, and many other "metrics". The results you're referencing do little to sway the conversation. If you have 4 players of similar skill and gear, the Katari (using the tactics you demonstrate) will be hard pressed to compete in terms of contribution.
You compared AW with Necro in terms of their damage potential and efficiency, but now you're ignoring AW's most important contribution: soaking up damage and controlling the battlefield (PotA, chain lightning stuns, stonefist, weaken, etc). The AW can stay alive forever and let the real dps do their job. The Katari either has issues staying alive, or deals inferior damage while playing safely.
If you have 4 players of similar skill and gear,
Never happens, at least not in my games. I've already mentioned there's different learning and gear curves for different classes. However, when I do have multiple skilled players, we just roflstomp through perilous playing whatever we want-- gear level and efficiency be damned because we're too busy having fun. The game is not so hard you need to worry about every detail.
What would your base constitution, cunning and willpower be from promotions at the time this video was made?
High. I play a lot after all. +55 Con, +70 Wil, +30 Cunning from promotions, in addition to gear and passives, translating to roughly +25% melee defense and 275 hp / +28 max guard hp, +35% attack power & magic defense, and +15% critical chance & ranged defense.
It sounds like a lot, but in practice is not as useful given passives + gear are much more powerful than this. Still useful, but marginal, given one stack of fervor is +30% to bonus damage (different from attack power), and you can gain multiple stacks.
I do have advantages, but they are not overwhelming. I die when I make errors in judgement as I did in the video.
Here's atypical round of Katari on Perilous.
FTFY, extra space deleted.
FTFY, extra space deleted.
Don't be average, be amazing.
My advice is not to be average, but amazing.
Thus your video is invalid to most people. Indicating that the Katari can be good under certain circumstances is totally fine, having the bent of a thread being the Katari are just fine as a class and as viable as any other class is bogus.
Never happens, at least not in my games. I've already mentioned there's different learning and gear curves for different classes. However, when I do have multiple skilled players, we just roflstomp through perilous playing whatever we want-- gear level and efficiency be damned because we're too busy having fun. The game is not so hard you need to worry about every detail.
My comment was more a thought experiment than a prescription... The whole point of discussing balance is to compare and contrast classes against each other. The fairest way to do that is on a level playing field. First and foremost, player skill and gear/promotions. Once again, to say that "yeah it's possible to get it to work" contributes little. Many of us know it's feasible, but I doubt you would argue it's particularly efficient, effective, or easy.
You mention fun factor, which I can totally understand. However, that is highly subjective, and what you or I think is enjoyable might seem lackluster to someone else.
I also suspect you wouldn't be "roflstomp"ing as much without your hard earned gear and promotions. All else being equal, do you honestly think Katari (and to a lesser extent, Reaver now) is on par with the other classes?
invalid to most people.
I'm fine with that. "most people", if you take the average, they are terrible and I don't want to be associated with them. Just being on this thread takes you away from that most people category. Actually reading and comprehending any bit of this thread raises skill level on that average.
The fairest way
The game is not fair, and life is not fair. We make do with what we have, so I don't entertain hypotheticals without testing and prefer actual. You're right to say "possible to get it to work" contributes little. I've demonstrated that it does work, and it was efficient, effective, and definitely easy for me. Easy for any particular individual? That'll always vary. Try, have fun, and it'll get easier. Learn, and it'll definitely get easier... and I've written and shown methods to make it easier.
wouldn't be "roflstomp"ing as much
hard earned gear
on par with the other classes?
Bwahahaha. RNG baby, RNG. Not hard earned at all. Blessed be the RNG. We've already established things are not equal, the game is not fair, and you don't fight in a vacuum. My stance is the easiest kit is that you are given gear for, and other resources for. Especially resources that are not immediately obvious: Time is one, Information is another (threads like this, guides, wiki's etc), experience, and other players are a resource too. Realistically what drops and what is available to you determines how much of a challenge you'll have. Do I care if one kit is slightly harder in various ways? A little. Does that matter all that much? No, because the whole picture matters more.
I started perilous on day two-three of getting this game. I didn't succeed, but I had fun. I started doing threatening and stopped doing routines as a regular thing on day two. I got a end game staff on the first week, pyre of the forgotten, so mages were easier early on. Starfang either in week one or two (I've since forgotten, it was early and about the same time I received Pyre). Thus started my great love for katari and elementalist because they roll through threatening with that equipment.
As you said, 'fun' is subjective. Since that is true, I would still be rofl-stomping through perilous in whatever gear/promotions I have because I know how to have fun.
At this point, I feel I've laid out my arguments in a reasoned manner. I understand your take, but either choosing to ignore the apparent imbalance among classes or telling others to "just live with it and have fun" (paraphrasing) contributes nothing to the discussion. There's nothing more here I can constructively add.
At this point, I feel I've laid out my arguments in a reasoned manner. I understand your take, but either choosing to ignore the apparent imbalance among classes or telling others to "just live with it and have fun" (paraphrasing) contributes nothing to the discussion. There's nothing more here I can constructively add.
I know there's nothing I can actually do to affect class balance, so I don't try to waste my time with it. Discussing class balance is not really useful when I cannot enact change. We are not devs with those powers. So, why bother with class imba discussion, especially in a cooperative game that is non-competitive. Maybe when the lines of communication to devs improve and feedback is actually able to filter through not just the hassles we deal with but those the devs deal with (time/money/other issues limitations)... great... but not here on the thread where I'm demonstrating, Katari's viable on perilous.
Go where you're effective.
I promote methods of having fun. That is within my grasp. By demonstrating what is possible, making resources available and sharing of information via discussion, I'm making what I do more viable for others and enabling that mythical fun element.
Thanks for this. I tend to play Katari like this on Threatening, so my current play style would translate over the Perilous no problem.
However, knowing that guard is not worthwhile in Perilous, I think I am going to try a couple of builds:
1st Charging Bull, Mighty Blow, Combat Roll, War Horn
2nd Charging Bull, Mighty Blow, Combat Roll, Earth Shaking Strike
High. I play a lot after all. +55 Con, +70 Wil, +30 Cunning from promotions, in addition to gear and passives, translating to roughly +25% melee defense and 275 hp / +28 max guard hp, +35% attack power & magic defense, and +15% critical chance & ranged defense.
It sounds like a lot, but in practice is not as useful given passives + gear are much more powerful than this. Still useful, but marginal, given one stack of fervor is +30% to bonus damage (different from attack power), and you can gain multiple stacks.
I do have advantages, but they are not overwhelming. I die when I make errors in judgement as I did in the video.
I would qualify those stat promotions (and the gear that likely came in the process) as "hard work". I consider myself a fairly experienced player, consistently (though not always) PuGing Perilous, etc, and I don't have 30 in any stats yet. I think you're downplaying the role of the stats irresponsibly, and expecting beginner/intermediate players to achieve similar levels of "roflstomp" and "mythical fun" as someone with your stats and loadout by following your methodology would be unreasonable, especially since most people's sense of "fun" is in some way tied to how successful they are.
Yes, you can lose an enjoyable game, but constantly getting decimated match after match is likely to wear on anybody's nerves, especially when that's a lot less likely to happen using other classes.
...High. I play a lot after all. +55 Con, +70 Wil, +30 Cunning from promotions, in addition to gear and passives, translating to roughly +25% melee defense and 275 hp / +28 max guard hp, +35% attack power & magic defense, and +15% critical chance & ranged defense.
...
In other words: The average player would have been left clueless why your tips don't work out if you hadn't mentioned this negligible extra bit.
since most people's sense of "fun" is in some way tied to how successful they are.
constantly getting decimated match after match is likely to wear on anybody's nerves
The main issue is indeed fun, and one of the ways to address that is to win. I'm doing that through video demonstrations and tips. Class balance discussion belongs elsewhere, and so does dev feedback. That's where it is effective. Tell me, what're you doing to improve fun for yourself and others. I would love to know more and new ways to have fun , and how you devastate with your own Katari (or other classes). I am not interested in, "oh but the other classes do it better" replies that don't go anywhere.
If I made a video of myself using inquisitor weapons pwning threatening on a new account, it would not matter because the arguement could be made I have hundreds of hours of experience. Just unlocking the Katari requires quite a bit of salvage for a new player.
Think about how you're improving the game, and please share that where it is appropriate. Dev feedback? There's a thread for that. Class balance discussion? Thread for that too. How to Katari? That's partly what this thread is for.
The average player ... clueless
The only important part. Average doesn't know how the combat formula nor battle mechanics work, and explaining how meaningful or negilible these numbers really are takes time and math comprehension. The latter of which is beyond most people.
The only important part. Average doesn't know how the combat formula nor battle mechanics work, and explaining how meaningful or negilible these numbers really are takes time and math comprehension. The latter of which is beyond most people.
I didn't bother calculating, but saw the +35% attack power you mentioned. It seems quite meaningful to me.
You're right, and I appreciate your posting videos and (possibly later) instructionals to help people out. That said, don't underestimate the role of reasoned arguments in influencing dev actions. I'm on the hopeful side that some of what is said in these forums makes their way to dev ears.
Lastly, as Beholder mentioned above, you do us and other viewers a service by being upfront about your gear and stats, as they do play a big role. That way, even if a viewer can't pull off what you've done at the moment, he/she might be encouraged to try out your fun style at a later point, once they have similar loadouts.
If I made a video of myself using inquisitor weapons pwning threatening on a new account, it would not matter because the arguement could be made I have hundreds of hours of experience. Just unlocking the Katari requires quite a bit of salvage for a new player..
That would be cool. Please do if you can, I'd love to watch.
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