65 réponses à ce sujet

[Drasca]

I didn't bother calculating,

 

That's the problem, and a major one. The 99% does not, and has no clue, yet makes judgements based on their untested ideas anyway. Have you seen the combat formula? That's seven factors on damage alone, each with individual sums and not taking into account positioning and fact there's limited hp on enemies vs how much damage is done by other teammates. Not even devs can go through every situation possible.

 

All the defense I have for example, is useful when I am hit... but I am dodging most of the attacks thrown at me through positioning, cover and combat roll / abilities. I would be winning regardless.

 

The short answer is the actual final benefit isn't as much as you might think, especially when enemy hp is limited. Let us examine a simplified example of overkill. If I am attacking an enemy with 2000 hp, and I hit him twice for 1000 each, he'd die in those two hits. If I had 50% more damage overall, the enemy would still die in two hits.The first hit would bring him down to 500 hp, and the second would kill and there is no added benefit. If I were facing a creature I could not kill immediately, and could retaliate, then it is a matter of surviving to do long term damage. How fast I kill is of less benefit than the fact that I survive and kill at all.

 

In a Team environment, there are many many ways of increasing damage. If I really wanted to prioritize boss killing speed, I would get TTD. In about 6 seconds of taunt I would match or exceed my willpower's damage bonus. There are many other team buffs and enemy debuffs for killing speed.

 

If you think "I can't do that", you're wrong. You must think, "I can, and I'm awesome" and probably "I can do that better."

 

 

if a viewer can't pull off what you've done at the moment, he/she might be encouraged to try out your fun style at a later point, once they have similar loadouts.

 

They can roflstomp threatening until they're ready for perilous. It is quite viable. If they're stomping threatening, it is just a matter of time before perilous.

[xROLLxTIDEx]

The only important part. Average doesn't know how the combat formula nor battle mechanics work, and explaining how meaningful or negilible these numbers really are takes time and math comprehension. The latter of which is beyond most people.

Actually, I do not think that those stat increases from promotions are negligible. I have seen the damage formula. Damage resistance which you get via promotions is everything since armor is capped in mp. But i'm just a professional engineer who can do complex math. If the promotions were neglible you wouldn't be promoting like you do.

+55 constitution is the equivalent of 5 superb amulets of constitution, hardly negligible. You can get about 20~25 constitution in a level 20 katari build for reference.

[Drasca]

 

If the promotions were neglible you wouldn't be promoting like you do

 

You assume I need to act logically. I could be illogical, or act on false assumptions, or have an agenda.

 

Damage resistance which you get via promotions is everything

 

But i'm just a professional engineer who can do complex math.

 

The first statement is wrong. Take the whole picture into account. Increase your perspective from individual system component to system wide and higher level. Goodbye trees, goodbye forest, hello Biome.

 

Let me count the ways damage can be avoided, mitigated ,or reduced. In no particular order, and this is not an exhaustive list, and I have been meaning to type some of these anyway. This is not even taking into account the possibility MP personal damage resistence is capped at 80%

 

0. Not aggro'ed

Aggro manipulation is awesome. I can bump into enemies engaged in others, even attack them, and while they're still on their initial attack animation/engagement, they will not retaliate until that engagement is complete.

 

Lol-Kite the Zone 5 Commander forever while my teammates smash them to pieces. Enemies are dumb.

 

1. Being out of range.

I take two steps outside a brute's weapon range while he swings wildly, he whiffs

 

2. Movement

Any movement away from a stalker will cause the daggers to miss and damage be avoided, especially as it uses twin fangs

 

3. Barrier. nuff said

 

4. Weaken / enemy debuff

Certain passives allow for (presumably) unlimited stacks of damage reduction, and improved weaken status effect is up to 30% weaken

 

5. Bodyguard

I take half damage, and Templar can take half of that.

 

6. Cover.

"Name's Sera. This is cover. Get round it" --Sera

 

7. Cross Combo Primer Incapacitates

Weaken+Shock=Sleep

Paralyze

Freeze

Stun

 

8. Knockdown

CHARRRRGE!

 

9. Killing the enemy

 

10. Abilities with Block (and slash for katari) / Damage interruptors

Oh sorry, your attacks are rendered meaningless. Have some counterattack punishment.

 

11. Stagger

 

12. Watching the enemy behaviour and animations

 

Walk around like a fool with back turned. Turn around. See Katari. See Katari Run. Yell at Katari while standing in place and rabble rousing arm in air. Watch as Katari spits at you face to face. Raise arm to wind up sword or bow. Get knocked down by Katari Charge as staring at Katari, yelling and screaming in mid air. Staring and finally attacking or not attacking as Katari brings up block and slash, is too slow and ineffective to stop Katari from Bullrush Charging and squishing self with Mighty Blow. --Footsoldier/Archer

 

Brute see Katari. Brute Charge with overhead attack. Katari sidesteps and Brute misses. Brute Mad. Brute Swing three times at Katari. Katari out of range. Brute Madder. Brute stop moving and swing widely three times in air. Katari laughs and roflstomps Brute's comrades, then charges through mighty blow's at a distance outside Brute's wild knockdown swings. Brute mad. Brute insane. Brute repeat same ineffective attack pattern. --Brute MAD raaargh

 

Stalker says I got him I got the Katari... *whiff*... I don't got him, he's walking slightly forward. Lemme circle round round round. What he combat rolled? Is that a charge or a pommel strike on my hea... Oh I'm dead. That was fast. --Venator Stalker

 

Rar raaar raaar. I see'm. The katari. Raar. I want to yell at the air. raaar. I iz ztealthy. Dey no see me. raaar. swish swish. N'er my noises and the white target reticule at 5m, nor how I move mostly in a direct line to my target.... Pay no attention to the elemental arrow in my head or the fact that I am burning. no. no. NOOOO Not static caaaage. Noooooo don't charge me! I was going to sewing machine stab that keeper. --Last moments of a Shadow

 

As much as I like telling these stupid stories, all of those situations aren't helped much by defense. It is an aggregation of all of them (and more I'm not mentioning I'm sure) that make the additional +.5% attributes extremely marginal.

 

You will likely die if you pay no attention. You will very likely succeed if you do. The stats and gear help, but becoming a strong player is the first order of business, and the character / gear development is secondary.

[haxaw]

Pretty much all those tips you pointed out are general, and apply to any class. None of that negates the clear gear/stat advantage your Katari has over others trying to learn.

 

Think of it like this: Even with your nicely boiled down pointers, massive promotions, and excellent gear, you were downed in a game that had a Barrier caster. If this was, as you say, due to your own mistake, imagine how many more deaths a learning player will suffer because 1) more mistakes are made and 2) less gear/stats to cover up for minor mistakes that wouldn't drop you, but would wreck them.

 

Edit: apparently making a list using a) and ...well...

[sabreracer]

Pretty much all those tips you pointed out are general, and apply to any class. None of that negates the clear gear/stat advantage your Katari has over others trying to learn.

 

Think of it like this: Even with your nicely boiled down pointers, massive promotions, and excellent gear, you were downed in a game that had a Barrier caster. If this was, as you say, due to your own mistake, imagine how many more deaths a learning player will suffer because 1) more mistakes are made and 2) less gear/stats to cover up for minor mistakes that wouldn't drop you, but would wreck them.

 

Edit: apparently making a list using a) and ...well...

 

Soooooooooooooo because we sometimes make mistakes that means that as a learning player we shouldn't attempt to learn how to play a more challenging class but should only play say AW?

 

Isn't a huge draw of BSN the guides and tips on how to play a class by those that ARE good at them.  Therefore allowing those of us that aren't gaming gods to pick up pointers on how to reduce the dumb things we do when playing a class that we either currently suck at, or have no idea how to play them effectively.

 

Sure having good gear and stats help but that doesn't make everything else irrelevant.

[Drasca]

imagine how many more deaths a learning player will suffer

 

Hurray! I provided the carrot on how to be awesome, and that's the stick. At least they'll know what they're doing wrong, if they read. I gladly welcome their now enlightened deaths to their formerly ignorant ones. Let's see what happens in the minds of someone who dies:

 

I died... waaah. I don't know why. Should I . . .

 

A) Never ask myself this question in the first place, because I don't think. Continue dying.

 

figure out what was wrong myself or elsewhere so I don't die anymore

 

I died... I know what I did wrong, so I'll try to stop doing that. *stops dying so much*

[haxaw]

Soooooooooooooo because we sometimes make mistakes that means that as a learning player we shouldn't attempt to learn how to play a more challenging class but should only play say AW?

 

Isn't a huge draw of BSN the guides and tips on how to play a class by those that ARE good at them.  Therefore allowing those of us that aren't gaming gods to pick up pointers on how to reduce the dumb things we do when playing a class that we either currently suck at, or have no idea how to play them effectively.

 

Sure having good gear and stats help but that doesn't make everything else irrelevant.

 

Never have I suggested not playing the class. Nor have I hinted that you shouldn't attempt to learn. Please don't accuse me of claims I've never made.

 

My point with regard to his guiding pointers is that they are more or less applicable to playing any class, which is why I said they were good tips. Understanding some of the concepts mentioned will make you more effective with ANY character, but does NOTHING to address my actual claim that Katari is significantly weaker, and could use some dev-love.

 

My last point is that his good gear and stats are most certainly relevant in his showcase. Tiny mistakes that he was able to recover from a lesser geared player might get downed by. The player would then be confused as to why the same methodology wasn't working. Hence my statement that failing to fully disclose his loadout was being disingenuous.

 

This is getting way off topic, and I don't want to derail this thread. I've made my thoughts clear and, I hope, in a reasoned and civil manner. Best of luck to your guide.

[Boondog]

Some good points here. Although, I would bet that since I'm under geared(by comparison) , and have way fewer promotions, that I would struggle with those same runs. Even if I followed those strategies to perfection. Having said that, I'm definitely going to give it a shot so thank you for sharing.

Also, the survival over damage strategy is often sound in most competitive games.

[Drasca]

that I would struggle with those same runs. Even if I followed those strategies to perfection. Having said that, I'm definitely going to give it a shot so thank you for sharing.

 

Thank you for speaking up. There's a lot of people here that feel struggle is a bad thing. It is not. It makes you appreciate what you have and what you do. I didn't always have the gear/promotions/builds/etc that I do. I am grateful for them. But now? I can sprint to enemies before they can even react, and often when dodging arrows the majority will miss, sometimes none hitting me at all-- without even using abilities, and on any character. That is the sort of skill you will develop.

 

The important thing is that you'll die less, get better, be able to have more fun, and know greener pastures await. The gear/promotions/skill will come. The pwnage will come. The struggle is real, but so is the reward.

[Drasca]

This is my typical perilous run as katari:

 

Pff need better weapon...

 

Do you have Sundering? You might be better off with a higher base damage weapon, given you're using abilities more than auto-attacks.  Even Starfang may be better than a 22 rare axe. I think you're using Slayer, but sundering is much better for the job.

You do need practice vs despair demons. The times where you're being ice beamed and kd'ed should not happen at all (or very rarely). Don't listen to music, listen for casting sounds, and be ready to run / jump out of the way and into cover as you hear and see them cast ice mine or beam.

I think you're very used to the Legionaire playstyle, and you need time to adapt to Katari playstyle in order to make it effective. Superficially yes they are not the same, but on a deeper subconscious level, you're trying to make the Katari as a Lego would approach problems and it doesn't work that way on many levels.

The way you move, when you move, and how you move, 'space control' are all subtle things that are 'mastery' but matter very much. It is hard to describe in few words, but it is possible to see with practice what works and what does not. I'd have to go over a lot of things to really really nail it down and think hard on it.

[Torkelight]

imagine how many more deaths a learning player will suffer because 1) more mistakes are made and 2) less gear/stats to cover up for minor mistakes 

 

 

I remember while starting this game on release, I died all the time. People had a hard time even finishing routine games. No equipment and little knowledge. Now a days though - you rarely whipe. Everyone should have to go through that. It's good for character building.

[Zorinho20_CRO]

Do you have Sundering? You might be better off with a higher base damage weapon, given you're using abilities more than auto-attacks.  Even Starfang may be better than a 22 rare axe. I think you're using Slayer, but sundering is much better for the job.

You do need practice vs despair demons. The times where you're being ice beamed and kd'ed should not happen at all (or very rarely). Don't listen to music, listen for casting sounds, and be ready to run / jump out of the way and into cover as you hear and see them cast ice mine or beam.

I think you're very used to the Legionaire playstyle, and you need time to adapt to Katari playstyle in order to make it effective. Superficially yes they are not the same, but on a deeper subconscious level, you're trying to make the Katari as a Lego would approach problems and it doesn't work that way on many levels.

The way you move, when you move, and how you move, 'space control' are all subtle things that are 'mastery' but matter very much. It is hard to describe in few words, but it is possible to see with practice what works and what does not. I'd have to go over a lot of things to really really nail it down and think hard on it.

That sounds like advice I got,when complained about hunter mode causing headaches.Someone said,that you should not watch at HM pattern,but through it or something like that.

[Teophne]

I love the doorway hugging on Katari, just like in the SWAT movies when they're about to break in to someone's house.

[Beerfish]

Nice,  but show me a game with you not using the sulevin blade and with an assassin, an alchemist and an AW or one of the archers.

[Jbrizzy84]

This is my typical perilous run as katari:


Pff need better weapon...

I think it's the music not the katari (weapon)

[Drasca]

Nice,  but show me a game with you not using the sulevin blade and with an assassin, an alchemist and an AW or one of the archers.

 

lol, it was just a demonstration, at level 12, of a typical game for me. I wasn't even playing at 100% efficiency. It was not a perfect skill demo. If you'd care to, join one of my perilous games where I play as a level 1 Katari in perilous and still get immortal at the end and a lot of kills.

 

To put it into perspective, this was performed before the solo Katari Video was put out, or the other video guides for Katari. A lot of BSN'ers didn't, and general public still don't think Katari is viable in Perilous. 

 

Video Proof that thought is wrong. I didn't play perfectly here, but that's part of the point. I didn't have all my skills, didn't play perfectly,  yet still roflstomped through Perilous at a time where the mass belief was Katari sucks.

 

I can certainly bring out my other exotic weapons, blue weapons, etc, and still do awesome. I may kill slower because gear, but the majority of avoiding damage and staying alive to do damage is built in skill and build.