171 réponses à ce sujet

[Jestina]

Most of them don't especially nowadays and if you only look at mainstream games. The RPG label in modern computer/console gaming is purely just another advertising label. They label everything from adventure games to tactical war games as RPG's now.

 

If you rip the CC out of DA:I then it's nearly a pure action game. Even the CC is just a superficial feature of RPG's. If you think this is any RPG then you've either bought into the deceptive advertising or have never actually played RPG's(tabletop and LARP would be the best place to start learning).

[Il Divo]

Strange, I've played both table top and Bioware's older cRPG's and I still consider DA:I to be an RPG. 

[Il Divo]

Would you please give an example of a cRPG that meets your definition of RPG? The closest one I can think of is Planescape Tormet and even then there was combat that was unavoidable.

What do you mean there is no option for the rogue to sneak past in DAI? That is how I cleaned out all the treasure in the Tomb of Fairel without having to engage the dragon.

 

Do Bioware's older games even meet this definition? I'm thinking KotOR and before. Really, they've all been combat engines with a good story/characters thrown in. 

 

Even when Bioware inevitably throws you the "persuade/bribe the front guard to leave his post" you still end up just murder the entire dungeon anyway. 

[o Ventus]

Most of them don't especially nowadays and if you only look at mainstream games.

 

Which is entirely meaningless, since even if those games don't fit your personal definition, that doesn't make them any less an RPG.

 

The RPG label in modern computer/console gaming is purely just another advertising label.

 

No it isn't. Well, it is in the sense that any other label is an advertising label, because its purpose is to convey what kind of game it is to the consumer before the game is purchased. I also love how you feel the need to qualify your phrase with "in modern computer/console gaming", as though it's somehow changed from the time the medium emerged to now. It hasn't, unless you're blinded by nostalgia or are some weird purist who is incapable of handling the most minute of changes.

 

They label everything from adventure games to tactical war games as RPG's now.

 

I guarantee you they don't. What they DO, however, is give them hybrid labels. DA2 and DAI are more accurately described as action-RPGs, meaning they are RPGs with a focus towards action-oriented gameplay (at least when it comes to combat), as compared to DAO being a tactical RPG which more heavily promoted use of the tactical camera through issuing orders to party members and the slower pace of the combat overall.

 

If you rip the CC out of DA:I then it's nearly a pure action game.

 

As compared to other "RPGs" that have no character creator at all.

 

If you think this is any RPG then you've either bought into the deceptive advertising or have never actually played RPG's(tabletop and LARP would be the best place to start learning).

 

Ahh, yes, the "you've bought into THE LIES!!!" fallacy and some strange warping of a No True Scotsman (credit to you for that at least).

 

You really may as well say that every shade of blue that isn't royal blue isn't REALLY blue, or that every sci-fi that doesn't have aliens isn't REALLY sci-fi.

[Realmzmaster]

No computer game at the present moment can compete with a DM  tabletop session. Also in a DM tabletop session the party is limited to what the DM will and will not allow. If the DM does not allow persuasion checks in the adventure then even if the party wants to do one it will always fail. A rogue trying to slip across a battlefield in broad daylight not going to happen unless the DM allows it.

 

The computer will always be limited by what the programmers can do. So if the definition of RPG equates to DM tabletop session then no cRPG ever created will match that definition. 

 

The definition has to relate to the medium in question.  There is not an AI in a computer game that can match a DM. The idea behind the cRPG is to simulate the experience as best as it can given the inherent limitations of the medium.

[Riven326]

No computer game at the present moment can compete with a DM  tabletop session. Also in a DM tabletop session the party is limited to what the DM will and will not allow. If the DM does not allow persuasion checks in the adventure then even if the party wants to do one it will always fail. A rogue trying to slip across a battlefield in broad daylight not going to happen unless the DM allows it.

 

The computer will always be limited by what the programmers can do. So if the definition of RPG equates to DM tabletop session then no cRPG ever created will match that definition. 

 

The definition has to relate to the medium in question.  There is not an AI in a computer game that can match a DM. The idea behind the cRPG is to simulate the experience as best as it can given the inherent limitations of the medium.

Agreed.

[Jestina]

Well, actually there are some that come close. I have a few in my indie library. I can't think of any recent AAA titles that come close though. It just requires that developers come up with alternative methods of getting through the game....rather than just the mindless hack&slashing your way through it with your one dimensional warriors. The big developers are usually too focused on graphics, VA, and catering to casual players.

[Realmzmaster]

Well, actually there are some that come close. I have a few in my indie library. I can't think of any recent AAA titles that come close though. It just requires that developers come up with alternative methods of getting through the game....rather than just the mindless hack&slashing your way through it with your one dimensional warriors. The big developers are usually too focused on graphics, VA, and catering to casual players.

 

Even in the indie games combat still plays a large part in the game. What do you mean by close? It is simply not possible at the present moment. The game will always be limited by what the designers thought of when they designed the game. A DM on the other hand will always be able to adapt to the situation if the DM is willing to do so. Many parties play with house rules that can change depending on the group . No computer game can match that. The game will always be limited by what can be programmed.

[Kroitz]

Designing a boss encounter like, let's just use the Lich King (from the Icecrown Citadel raid in WoW) as an example, would be hell in a single-player game. You have to deal with a roaming DoT effect like Necrotic Plague, which jumps to new targets when it kills its current target, or Defile, which is a circle-on-the-ground type of AoE which grows in size the longer people stand in it (which by itself would break the game with AI party members). Or the Val'kyr, who grab a random person and throw them off the platform, instantly killing them. Then add in phase transitions like Remorseless Winter which continuously pushes you backwards as adds are summoned in and need to be killed before the transition finishes. Not all the fights in WoW are as mechanically complex as the Lich King, but I can provide plenty of other examples.

 

MMO-style bosses, at least the way WoW does them, would be near impossible in a single-player game. Constantly needing to pause every 5 or 10 seconds to account for the boss's abilities is poor design when only 1 person is playing and doesn't strike me as anything resembling fun. Since Dragon Age isn't an RTS, it's functionally impossible to have a perfect view of the battle !(and DAI in particular, with its admittedly poor tactical camera view)! the same way an MMO like WoW would allow.

 

Maybe a Patchwerk-style tank n' spank fight (which are already in DA and most RPGs) or something like Halion (where the main mechanic is shifting between 2 versions of the battlefield to balance damage and prevent the boss from healing) or Mimiron (where the boss "transforms" each phase and has different abilities and weaknesses).

 

I guess we have the problem right there. DA currently lacks the tools to try anything as complex as the descripted encounter, even if it would be balanced around a group of 4.

 

Also pausing every 5 to 10 seconds to deal with a fight might be fun for more people than you might give credit for, but admittedly far less than the audience BW is going for.

[AlanC9]

I guarantee you they don't. What they DO, however, is give them hybrid labels. DA2 and DAI are more accurately described as action-RPGs, meaning they are RPGs with a focus towards action-oriented gameplay (at least when it comes to combat), as compared to DAO being a tactical RPG which more heavily promoted use of the tactical camera through issuing orders to party members and the slower pace of the combat overall.

Some folks prefer a definition of action-RPG that hinges on whether or not the player's reflexes determine combat success. (Note that at high enough speeds any RTWP game becomes an action game under this standard, even if the only reflex needed is hitting the pause button.) DA2's incorporation of active dodging makes it count as an ARPG under this standard too.

[wolfhowwl]

Some folks prefer a definition of action-RPG that hinges on whether or not the player's reflexes determine combat success. (Note that at high enough speeds any RTWP game becomes an action game under this standard, even if the only reflex needed is hitting the pause button.) DA2's incorporation of active dodging makes it count as an ARPG under this standard too.

I never saw the big deal about the game letting you see an Ogre begin a telegraphed attack, pause (in a RTwP game!), and then move a character out of the way.

Other than that one change in how damage was dealt after the animation played, DA:O and DA2 had very similar combat systems.
 

Spoiler

In some ways DA2 was superior.

[Raoni Luna]

People can call any game anything they want but it matters not.

 

There are 2 answers to the OP question:
1. This game is the "not as good as previous Bioware games" type.

2. This game is the "I don't know how many games I tried to copy and failed" type.

 

You're welcome.

[o Ventus]

People can call any game anything they want but it matters not.

 

 

Sure, until they say something stupid and label it by the wrong genre entirely.

 

Nobody would call Call of Duty a racing simulator, and nobody would call Tetris a first-person shooter. They CAN call them that, but they aren't right. It isn't even an opinion by that point, they are actually wrong.

[Scofield]

Its a fantasy game

[Raoni Luna]

Sure, until they say something stupid and label it by the wrong genre entirely.

 

Nobody would call Call of Duty a racing simulator, and nobody would call Tetris a first-person shooter. They CAN call them that, but they aren't right. It isn't even an opinion by that point, they are actually wrong.

Exactly. Like calling Inquisition RPG. How can someone even say that? holy Andraste! This should be punishible by banishment from this plane. But people are crazy this days so I just ignore it.

[o Ventus]

Exactly. Like calling Inquisition RPG. How can someone even say that? holy Andraste! This should be punishible by banishment from this plane. But people are crazy this days so I just ignore it.

That wasn't at all what I was going for, but okay. Yeah, sure, whatever you say.

[mutantspicy]

 

 

 

It means basically what was in my post, if you had bothered to read it instead of trolling. An RPG gives you tools to play your character the way you flesh it out. In games like this, your only option is mostly through fighting. There's no option to play a charismatic character that relies more on persuasion than bashing everything. There's option for playing a sneaky character that relies on deception more than fighting. There's not option for smart characters that rely more on brains that brawn. To get through the majority of this game you have to bash everything and that is not a RPG.

 

Its been this way with every AAA RPG for years now.  When the direction shifted to using voice acted NPC's and companions,  the choices by virtue of studio budget automatically become limited.  My opinion DAI brings back a semblance of the role options we had in the old text based days.  But it still has a looooooong way to go.

 

And yes more persuasion, seduction, bullying, and manipulation will be met with open arms on my part.

[atlantico]

If you are not in it for the money you will be out of business. A lot of companies went about pleasing their fans and are no longer in business. Any company that does not watch their bottom line and expenses are doomed to fail.

 

That's not true, because you're leaving a lot out of your "definition". 

 

Everyone's "in it for the money", that's a claim without substance. Put some substance into it and try again.

[Peregrinus]

I finished DAI in little over 80 hours and the impression it gave me was that they meant for this to be a MMO but made it single player. There are some moments in the game that felt like the old Bioware with the storytelling but it has so much filler that it made the whole thing feel generic at the end.  It's their attempt at making it feel almost open world is where it seemed to have run into a problem. I don't think I would mind it much if the story was focused on the main plotline with side quests that involve the companions and some relevant side quests that tied into the mission. All of the missions involving finding people's rings, items, livestock, and other fetch quests is what made the game weaker.

 

p.s.  All the technical and keyboard/mouse issues don't help things much either. 

[DragonAddict]

First off, learn how to format. Second, you just invalidated yourself here on your very first point by telling me to play 2 games on separate machines.

 

 

 

 

I don't know why you felt the need to qualify your sentence with "many years of gaming", as though that gives you some kind of magical credentials and a somehow more valuable viewpoint than anyone else. I've also spent "many years" gaming, and I think DAI is perfectly fine (and is in many ways my favorite of the 3).

 

 

 

 

Sure, except these are all verifiably false, as modern Bioware games have more dialogue and more cinematics than older games, due to the advancing budgets and technologies (common sense should tell you this). So no, you actually don't know what you're talking about.

 

 

 

 

It's not there because you don't want to see it. I fail to understand how you've been gaming since the 90's and still haven't come to understand that maybe if something doesn't fit your tastes, that it can still be a good game. That's like saying "well, I don't like racing games, so Gran Turismo and Forza are both horrible".

 

 

 

 

 

I never said I did. I said people have. If you're going to try to make a personal attack, give it some effort. My longest playthrough so far for DAI is 79 hours, which will likely be exceeded by my current playthrough.

 

 

 

 

I can see why it would be boring if you spent 100 hours in the war room. Especially when you can cheese those by adjusting your computer or console's internal clock.

 

 

 

 

Kind of like the big areas in DAO.

 

 

 

 

What the f**k are you saying here? Beds, thrones, decors, banners, drapery, heraldry, windows, plus a handful of cosmetic building upgrades. That doesn't equal only 3 options unless you're mathematically retarded.

 

 

 

You really don't have a clue about what proper rpg's have to offer do you?

 

 

Too many features and optons in DAI are non interactive. Who cares about better drapes, throne,  windows, etc.....are they intereactiive? no. More static eye candy. Can you at least open and close the windows.....no.....useless.

 

 

DAO was a very well written rpg and if DAO was a horrible game, users wouldn't stil be buying and playing it 5+ years later!!! That's speaks volumes right there.

 

 

I never adjusted by PC's internal clock. I actually played DAI without cheating.

 

 

It took me about 90 hours to finish DAI and at that point the useless side filler quests became too much and very boring.....nothing to do with DA series or my party characters.

 

 

SInce I have been gaming from the early 1990's, I have noticed the quality of rpg games has gone downhill for better graphics, cut scenes and they are shorter.

 

 

We only got 3 things to upgrade for our Skyhold Keep? That's it? That's nothing and other rpg games with mod's do circles around DAI and these aren't even paid professionals!!! With the size of DAI, I would expect way more than three main things to upgrade.....

 

 

If you had played many rpg's on PC from way back to present day, you would also see how Bioware has been systematically dumbing their DA games since DA2.

 

- loss of isometric view.....

 

- short games now

 

- useless filler side quests

 

- poorly written plots, main quests and sub quests

 

- too much static eye candy everywhere now. You can look, an art gallery, but that's it......useless and non interactive, like a movie. An rpg is not a movie with cutscenes.

 

- Large areas to explore but there's not much in them, almost empty and meaningless.

 

- no talking to party characters......this is supposed to be an rpg

 

- no gifts to find and buy for party characters......DAO did this, DAI should of as well

 

- no storage chest......really dumb decision.

 

- can't swim and dive

 

- no boat

 

- can't buy a plot of land and build a place

 

- can't open barrels, move pots, sit down in chairs, at tables, talk to NPC's, can't eat food....can't , can't, can't......I thought this was an rpg. Rpg's are interactive and those are choices.

 

- can't set how long you sleep or nap.

 

- no pet(s)

 

- ending boss was very short and almost a joke

 

- very hack and slash and repeat

 

 

The list goes on and on and on........

 

 

If you like dumbed down hack and slash controller action games with some rpg elements, Bioware did good with DAI for users like you but for other users who expected a actual rpg game with features and options older rpg's had.......we were disappoointed and not duped by graphics, cutscenes and eye candy.

 

 

I predict, DA4 will be even more restrictive with features removed compared to DAI and the same users will say its a great game and not see what is being taken away,, simpified, dumbed down, and all covered up with even better graphics, longer cutscenes and eye candy art everywhere.

 

 

DAI is not a great rpg even though many may wish it to be.

 

 

DAI is not the game of the year either.

 

 

DAI is mediocre and will be forgotten in a few years time.

 

 

Even after Patch 4, the PC is still not properly optimized like Bioware had said in their interview and it goes on and on.......but its a great rpg.....I think someone got paid off by Bioware to say great things about DAI even in the face of so much overwhelming issues with the game.

 

 

This forum is full of complaints from angry users who bought this game.

 

 

If I only had played 3 or 4 rpg games, and then I bought DAI, I would probably say its the greatest rpg or something to that effect.

 

 

But I have played way more rpg's and other PC games than that, way more, so I know what's going on and how DA2 and DAI are getting worse and worse compared to what older games did have and offered.

 

 

Instead of taking away, add more features.

[Realmzmaster]

I will stack my resume of years of playing cRPGs against anyone's. Let me know if you started playing cRPGs with Akalabeth. Because I did back in 1979 and before that D & D tabletop.. As I stated before the number of cRPGs I have played is well over 300. That includes triple A to indie.  Posters on this forum have their opinion of what a cRPG should contain. That is fine, but your opinion is no valid than anyone else's opinion. 

Because if years of playing RPGs and cRPGs are the barometer then many on this forum like AlanC9, Sylvius the Mad, Fast Jimmy, CyberAnt, Rawgrim, Sofajockey, o Ventus and others should be holding court.

 

Many of us know that our opinions are just that our opinions. We do not always agree with each other, but we are civil enough to agree to disagree. We also do not seek to belittle someone else's opinion.

Our opinion is just as valid as anyone else's. We paid our money for the game and have the right to voice that opinion. If we like or dislike the game that is fine. 

I stated upfront I like DAI. I think it is better than DAO. I have stated why I think so. But YMMV.

[o Ventus]

 

Because if years of playing RPGs and cRPGs are the barometer then many on this forum like AlanC9, Sylvius the Mad, Fast Jimmy, CyberAnt, Rawgrim, Sofajockey, o Ventus and others should be holding court.

 

I'm unfamiliar with this phrase. Is this a good or bad thing?

[ManleySteele]

He's saying you're old.

[o Ventus]

You really don't have a clue about what proper rpg's have to offer do you?

 

 

Too many features and optons in DAI are non interactive. Who cares about better drapes, throne,  windows, etc.....are they intereactiive? no. More static eye candy. Can you at least open and close the windows.....no.....useless.

 

 

DAO was a very well written rpg and if DAO was a horrible game, users wouldn't stil be buying and playing it 5+ years later!!! That's speaks volumes right there.

 

 

It took me about 90 hours to finish DAI and at that point the useless side filler quests became too much and very boring.....nothing to do with DA series or my party characters.

 

 

SInce I have been gaming from the early 1990's, I have noticed the quality of rpg games has gone downhill for better graphics, cut scenes and they are shorter.

 

 

We only got 3 things to upgrade for our Skyhold Keep? That's it? That's nothing and other rpg games with mod's do circles around DAI and these aren't even paid professionals!!! With the size of DAI, I would expect way more than three main things to upgrade.....

 

 

If you had played many rpg's on PC from way back to present day, you would also see how Bioware has been systematically dumbing their DA games since DA2.

 

- loss of isometric view.....

 

- short games now

 

- useless filler side quests

 

- poorly written plots, main quests and sub quests

 

- too much static eye candy everywhere now. You can look, an art gallery, but that's it......useless and non interactive, like a movie. An rpg is not a movie with cutscenes.

 

- Large areas to explore but there's not much in them, almost empty and meaningless.

 

- no talking to party characters......this is supposed to be an rpg

 

- can't swim and dive

 

- no boat

 

- can't buy a plot of land and build a place

 

- can't open barrels, move pots, sit down in chairs, at tables, talk to NPC's, can't eat food....can't , can't, can't......I thought this was an rpg. Rpg's are interactive and those are choices.

 

- can't set how long you sleep or nap.

 

- no pet(s)

 

- ending boss was very short and almost a joke

 

- very hack and slash and repeat

 

 

The list goes on and on and on........

 

 

If you like dumbed down hack and slash controller action games with some rpg elements, Bioware did good with DAI for users like you but for other users who expected a actual rpg game with features and options older rpg's had.......we were disappoointed and not duped by graphics, cutscenes and eye candy.

 

 

I predict, DA4 will be even more restrictive with features removed compared to DAI and the same users will say its a great game and not see what is being taken away,, simpified, dumbed down, and all covered up with even better graphics, longer cutscenes and eye candy art everywhere.

 

 

DAI is not a great rpg even though many may wish it to be.

 

 

DAI is not the game of the year either.

 

 

DAI is mediocre and will be forgotten in a few years time.

 

 

This forum is full of complaints from angry users who bought this game.

 

 

Instead of taking away, add more features.

It won't let me respond to this point-by-point, so I'll do it in a sort of super post, numbered to correspond to the respective point.

 

1. Disregarding for a moment the fact there is no such thing as a "proper" RPG, I like to think I do, at least a little bit. I've been playing them for close to 19 years, ranging from AAA big budget blockbusters to unknown indies made by 3 guys on a budget consisting of a paperclip, some chewed gum, and some string.

 

2. Literally every video game to ever exist in the entire history of mankind has had non-interactive elements.

 

3. Nobody said that DAO was horrible, or even bad. Nice try.

 

4. You clearly had SOMETHING to do since it took you 90 hours.

 

5. I'm not going to continue on about cutscenes. It's objectively false that they are shorter (and you're an idiot if you can't understand why what you said is untrue). It's as simple as that.

 

6. Banners, drapes, decor, heraldry, thrones, windows, and beds. On top of the various buildings you can construct (I don't remember how many). If that equals 3 to you, then you're an idiot. That's at least 7 items to customize.

 

7 (all of the bolded consolidated into one singular response): there IS an isometric view. You are objectively wrong here. You said it took you 90 hours to complete DAI, which would mean it is indeed not a short game. Side quests are, by definition, useless filler, hence them not being main story quests. The quests are no better or worse written than those in DAO. DAO has just as much 'eye candy' as DAI, if not arguably more. You can't interact with anything in the environment except for loot, doors, or NPCs, and the odd item here and there for quests, same as in DAI and the majority of RPGs. DAO has the farms outside Lothering, the Brecilian Forest, and the tunnels in the Deep Roads, which are all largely devoid of anything in between patches of enemies for quest progression. you DO talk to party members, in a handful of banters while in the field, and while at Skyhold. @the italicized and underlined: These haven't been features in any of the DA games, thus irrelevant. The end boss was no more or less a joke than the Archdemon or Meredith, though Corypheus and Meredith have the distinct advantage of being actual villains, as opposed to the Archdemon.

 

8. This game IS an 'actual' RPG. You keep using words like 'real' and 'actual', and I'm not entirely convinced you know what they mean.

 

9. DAI IS a great RPG, unless all the publications who give it GOTY are somehow wrong, and all the people who like the game are wrong. Also, you said earlier that DAI wasn't an RPG, but now you say it's just a bad one. Which is it?

 

10. DAI actually is GOTY, at least according to Ars Technica, GameInformer, The Escapist, The Associated Press, Hardcore Gamer, and EGM, as well as the countless others who consider it to be their personal choices for game of the year (like myself).

 

11. Mass Effect 3 and DA2 have received considerably lower opinions than DAI on these boards, and both of those are still spoken about quite readily.

 

12. These boards are most certainly NOT 'full' of complaints. This is easy to verify simply by taking a quick glance at the first pages of any given board.

 

13. They have added features. The most to date, in fact. You can now jump, mount, re-specialize your class, and a host of new mecahnics.

[SpazzticZeal]

What is with all the storage chest complaints?

 

Didn't DAO only have one added in in DLC???