87 réponses à ce sujet

[MrFob]

I think the prominence of Cerberus has a lot to do with game design decisions.

ME is a cover shooter and you kinda need enemies for that that also use some semblance of a cover mechanic and that fire back at you.

Those enemies could not be the reapers because by lore, their ground troops are throw away shock troops with barely a mind of their own (i.e. husks, etc.). BW already softened that up with Cannibals and Marauders but the point is that reapers actually don't really need a standing army of their own because a) they are frigging huge space ships and they use indoctrination rather than combat against puny organics.

 

Now, of course, BW could have gone with all sorts of indoctrinated minions (something I would personally have loved to see) but alas, the xbox 360 has a mere 512 MB of RAM plus limited disc space , etc. (not to mention time for art design and development) so, BW did what every studio does, they created generic mooks, easy to replicate and use for different levels.

Now they had to choose a faction, these mooks would belong to. It could have been the council and C-Sec (in which case we'd fight C-Sec officers throughout the game) or a Merc band (hello ME2) or the Krogan (we'd be screwed) or the Yahg (we'd be even more screwed) but Cerberus kind of presented themselves through their shady role in the past and TIMs already established personality as half villain (comparable to Saren in a way).

 

So this entire process is not really that hard to follow. I think it was perfectly reasonable from BW's perspective to use Cerberus in that manner. Of course, that doesn't change the fact that I still hate them and that I really REALLY want to see them gone in the future of ME but to an extent, I can understand why things are as they are.

 

P.S.: There is really no excuse I can think of for Mac to still insert Cerberus in every one of his stupid comics even after ME3. That's just on him.

[Sirzechs_Krios]

ME3 was good until the ending which the EC fixed most of the problems I had, my ideal ME3 thou would have been choosing to side with Cerberus at the Mars mission thou, as the renegade option recruiting Dr Eva and people like Kai Leng instead of them being typical villains and have one of the ending be like detonating several solar systems with the reapers trapped their like say them gathering in earth.

[MrDbow]

I thought they were fine.

[Ithurael]

The Reapers were, indeed, the central antagonist in ME3. They were there at Tuchanka. They were present in the geth during Rannoch, which included an actual on-foot boss battle with a Reaper. Their tech coursed through Cerberus' veins every step of the way. And they're the reason why we're building the Crucible in the first place, and gathering forces to stall their advances while it's under construction.

 

While I do agree with the fact that the reapers appear at tuchanka, rannoch and are the basis for the crucible those are story elements - not really the game play elements.

 

From a gameplay perspective the reapers, as themikefest pointed out, have only one more core mission more than cerberus. I actually did have a breakdown of EVERY quest in ME3 by foe and by type (foe = Cerberus, Reapers, Cat5, and X for Fetch and Type==Main, Side, and Fetch) and in that review, I found that cerberus is way ahead of the reapers. Even in core missions (eg JUST priority missions) we see:

 
Prologue: Earth -                          Reap
Priority: Mars -                              Cerb
Priority: The Citadel I -                  NA
Priority: Palaven -                         Reap
Priority: Sur'Kesh -                        Cerb
Priority: Tuchanka                         Reap
Priority: The Citadel II -                 Cerb
Priority: Perseus Veil -                  NA
Priority: Geth Dreadnought -        Geth
Priority: Rannoch -                       Geth/Reap*
Priority: The Citadel III -                NA
Priority: Thessia -                         Reap
Priority: Horizon -                          Reap
Priority: Cerberus Headquarters - Cerb
Priority: Earth -                              Reap/TIM

 

*= I will count this as a Reaper mission, even though you are fighting reaper controlled geth, it is still a reaper that controls them and you take a reaper down in the end.

 

Total

Reap = 7

Cerb = 4

Geth = 1 (technically 2 but that one counts to the reapers)

 

http://masseffect.wi..._Effect_3_Guide

 

The reapers lead, but by a small margin. And these are JUST priority missions. These are the main missions which dictate the flow of the story, side missions just dictate some character deaths or character development. And look, even in the priority missions cerberus is closing in on the reapers by 3 missions.

 

It is like I said. The story says "reaper reapers reapers" but the game and the game play goes "Cerberus Cerberus Cerberus"

 

What do you think speaks louder, actions or words?

 

 

 

That there'd probably be a pretty good reason for clashing with Cerberus as a diversion instead of getting thoroughly blitzed by the Reapers in head-on confrontations. BioWare already did it once with the Collectors.
 

 

I know...that part in ME2 never really made any sense to me though I always thought that the merc fighting would actually lead to something lol. Like, we are told again and again "Collectors Collectors Collectors" and we spend the majority of ME2 just shooting Mercs and solving personal problems...

 

I never did a count of ME2 missions but lets see:
 
NAME                                                     FOE
Prologue: Save Joker -                           Collector
Prologue: Awakening -                            NA
Freedom's Progress -                             Mechs
Dossier: The Professor - Mordin            Merc
Dossier: Archangel - Garrus                   Merc
Dossier: The Convict - Jack                    Merc (I know it is guards but it technically will be counted as mercs for sanity)
Dossier: The Warlord - Grunt                  Merc

NOTE: you need to complete these dossiers to continue the game

http://masseffect.wi...t_1_Progression
Horizon                                                    Collector
Reaper IFF - Legion                                Reaper
Collector Ship -                                        Collector
Reaper IFF - Crew Abduct                       Collector

Can be done right after the crew is abducted

http://masseffect.wi...ession_Missions
The Normandy Attacked -                        Collector*
Collector Base: Infiltration -                      Collector*
Collector Base: The Long Walk -             Collector*
Final Battle -                                             Collector*

 

*=All really the final battle mission, so I count as one instance

http://masseffect.wi..._Effect_2_Guide

 

Note, these are JUST the missions that drive the story. Most of the recruitment options in ME2 are OPTIONAL - save Legion and the first four.

 

So, just looking at this...we can see
Collector = 6

Merc= 4

Reaper = 1

Mech/Robot = 1

 

My god...the Collectors are dominant, but lead by a marvel of two missions (vs the three that the reapers lead by in ME3). I won't do an analysis of all of ME2 to find which missions are more merc vs collector because we all know the result of that. So it seems ME3 just copy/pasted ME2s villain formula.

 

Here is the breakdown of ME1

 

Mission                                                                  FOE
Prologue: On the Normandy                                  NA
Prologue: Find the Beacon                                    Geth
Citadel: Expose Saren                                           Thugs
Citadel: Garrus                                                       Thugs
Citadel: Shadow Broker                                          Thugs
Find Liara T'Soni                                                    Geth
Feros: Geth Attack                                                 Geth/Thorian
Noveria: Geth Interest                                             Geth/Rachni
Virmire: Assault                                                       Geth
Ilos: Find the Conduit                                               Geth
Race Against Time: Final Battle                               Geth/Krogan

 

Total

Geth = 7

Thug =  3

Rachni = 1

Thorian = 1

 

Looks like ME1 did it right at least for primary missions.

 

Again. it comes down to actions vs words or more importantly. Story vs Game play.

 

If the story tells you Reapers Reapers Reapers and the game has you fighting Cerberus Cerberus Cerberus. What are you suppose to think? Actions are louder than words.

[Linkenski]

For an individual who's first interaction with the ME universe came in the form of ME3, the intro could perhaps be called a bit heavy, but not glaringly so.   

 

ME 3 WAS my first encounter with this series and I was able to pick up on the framework of the storyline relatively quickly.   Provided one spends some time actually engaging in the copious amounts of optional dialogue, a shape is given to the story fairly quickly.   Once you acquire Liara and subsequently make it to the Citadel, one should then understand the bones of the overall story.

Yes, the premise is quickly set up and that's all fine and dandy, but what I'm talking about is that I feel like they could've been much more subtle. I.e. you know the Illusive Man is up to something and goes against you, but you don't know why he does it as opposed to in the game, he just tells you right at the first meeting "I want to control the reapers", and in the time you've played and especially for fans that sounds entirely unbelievable and IMO laughable. Had he revealed it later in the game on the 2nd or third encounter it'd sunk in better I think and it would've given more variety in what each scene TIM's in offers. As it is he's just rambling on about control in every scene with arguments that don't have any teeth... IMO that was a story-pacing problem and not a small one.

 

We have 2 entire scenes with the Illusive Man talking to Shepard in the game, the near-end one and the final one where the dialogue has NO significance at all. The scenes are pointless from a narrative perspective. The only reason I see to having them is "hey, remember TIM is still in the plot!". He might as well have just said "Hi, Shepard" and then go away again.

 

Anyway, what I mostly wanted to comment on in the quote was (And I think this is more subjective):

 

There'd be nothing wrong with the intro story-wise for a newcomer since it really goes out of its way to re-establish the premise for newcomers rather than fans. It does change a few lines depending on whether you import or not of course, but the "SAVE EARTH" premise was always a dumbed down perception of what Mass Effect was about, and I believe it was something they did just so they could draw in new fans because Earth is something they can quickly pick up and understand no matter what story it is.

 

I'm a bit confused as to what was wrong with "save the galaxy!", I guess it has a bad ring compared to Earth, but I will say that as someone who played ME1 and ME2 and then eagerly anticipated ME3 for 2 years, those first 10-30 minutes did wonders to make me feel completely alienated. Anderson talks as if he's not heard of the Reapers before in the introductory monologue and says "god help us all" in a very un-Anderson way, then there's the bit where Shepard is apparently grounded and stuff, "wow we can do shaky-cam scenes!" and Anderson and Shepard both sound like morons talking to each other. The defence council scene is embarrassingly dumb etc. etc.

 

I was completely alienated. I felt that even when Mass Effect did dumb things in the past they were not as banal or blatantly stupid as some of the things we see in the first 30 minutes of ME3.

 

Okay, I kid, I kid. I Major Kirrahe was pretty insane, thinking he could outrun a nuke on foot in ME1... at least it wasn't the trailer-fodder-ness of the dialogue that was silly in the past games.

 

Anyway, I just hope that Bioware doesn't consider the intro of ME3 an example of how to proceed in future games. I hope they do something a bit more tasteful next time, and I hope (and have a good feeling) that they will establish what needs to be established without going too much in the deep end with it.

[RoboticWater]

Beyond what Ithurael says about mission representation, I think the Reapers were woefully underrepresented within dialog. Most, if not all of ME3's pacing problems could have been solved if the Reaper's motives had been expanded upon throughout the narrative rather than crammed into the end. The Crucible and Catalyst could have been much easier to swallow if the narrative did a better job laying the framework gradually. Heck, ME3 wouldn't have needed such contrivances if the writers delved far enough into the Reapers' character and history. Unfortunately, what we got was a bunch of unnecessary meandering and an unfocused plot.

 

The Reapers are represented in 7 missions, but how many missions do you actually talk to a Reaper, delve into their history, or learn more about their character? There's the Reaper on Rannoch, but it tells you next to nothing (mostly, we're good, you're evil, that's that, exterminate...). I don't care that Cerberus are thralls of the Reapers (actually, I do. I think it was a complete waste of an interesting moral conundrum and yet another nail in the coffin for renegade players, but that's a rant for a different time), I care that wholly unnecessary characters like Kai Leng take up time which could have been given to the main threat, which is unsurprisingly, a more interesting mystery. 

 

This is only my personal opinion, but never felt like the Reapers had a major presence in the story until the end (and even then, the Catalyst took the main stage). I like that BioWare maintained the strong character and culture focus, and left purple squid gods out of some of the more intimate moments, but I do think there should have been someone or something that tied all those missions more directly into the main conflict at hand. As I said earlier, I thought that would be Harbinger. Given the large, but distant role he played in ME2, I thought he might come back and interfere with me more directly (I briefly entertained the notion that James existed just so the writers would have a throwaway character for Harbinger to "assume direct control" later on in the story). 

[dreamgazer]

I had enough of Reaper "dialogue" after Harbinger's nonsensical schoolyard bullying.

And Cerberus has always, always, had a history of playing with fire.

[Ithurael]

I had enough of Reaper "dialogue" after Harbinger's nonsensical schoolyard bullying.

And Cerberus has always, always, had a history of playing with fire.

 

Ya...Most of harbingers dialog was a bit..odd. Especially for a God-like super machine-god that like is all powerful and god.

 

The stuff where he talked about the genetic composition of sheps squad mates was good. The arrival convo was ok. But I think they should have just kept it to relaying orders to troops and reaper view on squadmates. Not "This Hurts You!!"

 

Though...I will admit...I still get weak in the knees for "ASSUMING/RELEASING CONTROL"

[Andrew Lucas]

The Crucible's execution was fine, it would've been better if it was mentioned back at ME2, if the game had moved the Reaper's plot forward.

Now, the Catalyst? That's a whole new story.

[Han Shot First]

I think Bioware was on the right track with Cerberus (as indoctrinated mooks of the Reapers), but they showed their hand too soon. That TIM was indoctrinated gets revealed in the second mission of the game. I think it would have been more interesting if instead Cerberus was portrayed as being in an uneasy alliance with the Council against the Reapers, and with the indoctrination angle being a twist that gets revealed when they sink a dagger in Shepard's back at Thessia.

 

Of course that would also mean shifting the coup to post-Thessia and having to face less Cerberus goons on missions overall. Indoctrinated Batarians could have been used as replacements for Cerberus on some of those side missions. Or Collectors. Just because Shepard blew up lots of Collectors in ME2 doesn't necessarily mean he/she eradicated them. There was always the possibility that there could be Collector ships unaccounted for, or that Collectors could have also been on some of the Reapers.

[wolfhowwl]

Would much be lost if the coup was just cut? Yeah, players wouldn't have the opportunity to kill Udina or the VS but those felt really forced anyways.

[SimonTheFrog]

The Crucible's execution was fine, it would've been better if it was mentioned back at ME2, if the game had moved the Reaper's plot forward.

Now, the Catalyst? That's a whole new story.

 

I have to disagree on that one.

Even if it would have been mentioned in ME2 already (which would have been the least) it still is so riddled with annoying contradictions and so very, very unlikely.

 

You see, no civilization knew what it would do (just as no civilization set foot on the citadel-roof and therefore wouldn't even know how the interface between crucible and citadel should look like) but somehow they all managed to continue to work of the civilizations before them.

 

How is it possible to continue planning a coherent object, if you don't even know what the object should DO?

 

Also, it just doesn't seem likely that somehow, in all those years, the reapers never managed to notice anything about those plans. With all the destruction, hacking and indoctrination going on, this is very unbelievable.

 

Oh, and those stupid quotes the companions say about it.... urks...

[Linkenski]

I had enough of Reaper "dialogue" after Harbinger's nonsensical schoolyard bullying.

And Cerberus has always, always, had a history of playing with fire.

This kinda. I never understood why so many ending haters thought that a there would've been a battle with Harbinger. I never had that antagonist protagonist bond with him as I did with Shepard and Saren or Sovereign in ME1. Harbinger has no character and just because there's some history with him wouldn't make him a good antagonist for ME3.

 

Until the Codex in ME3 painted Harbinger as the "first of all Reapers" I never really saw him as anything but yet another Sovereign-type Reaper who's priming for the Reaper invasion ahead of time.

[SimonTheFrog]

This kinda. I never understood why so many ending haters thought that a there would've been a battle with Harbinger. I never had that antagonist protagonist bond with him as I did with Shepard and Saren or Sovereign in ME1. Harbinger has no character and just because there's some history with him wouldn't make him a good antagonist for ME3.

 

Until the Codex in ME3 painted Harbinger as the "first of all Reapers" I never really saw him as anything but yet another Sovereign-type Reaper who's priming for the Reaper invasion ahead of time.

 

Well, but ever since he IS the biggest and oldest of the reapers, he'd be a good target.

 

But, I never really anticipated a classical boss battle against the reapers because there are so many of them. It wouldn't be end of the conflict (which is what a boss battle is about in story driven games).

 

I did anticipate, though, that Shep and team would infiltrate one of the reapers to find the weak spot on the inside and exploit it so that other teams could do the same and thereby destroy the reaper fleet one by one.... something like that. Would have been nice.

[themikefest]

The one dialogue that bothered me is when talking to Hackett after Mars. He tells Shepard he thought Cerberus would try something. Why wouldn't he tell Shepard that Cerberus might be present before he/she gets to Mars? I guess he didn't care.

[Linkenski]

The attack on the Mars was infiltration. An inside job by Dr. Eva Core, as seen in the video recordings on Mars. Hackett didn't know because I assume the attack begins not long before Shepard arrives, plus there's the sandstorm that interferes with comms.

[themikefest]

The attack on the Mars was infiltration. An inside job by Dr. Eva Core, as seen in the video recordings on Mars. Hackett didn't know because I assume the attack begins not long before Shepard arrives, plus there's the sandstorm that interferes with comms.

He still can give a heads up to Shepard that Cerberus might be there otherwise he had no reason to make that comment after Mars

[Linkenski]

He still can give a heads up to Shepard that Cerberus might be there otherwise he had no reason to make that comment after Mars

No, because all he says is that he thought they might be up to something after Shepard left them in ME2, and you can assume he knows about them wanting the collector base and such from Shepard.

 

Hackett had no idea where Cerberus was going to show up, he's just saying he thinks they're up to something and might eventually show up, and after Mars his suspicion was confirmed so naturally he mentions it. Hackett never knew Cerberus was going to be on Mars.

[themikefest]

No, because all he says is that he thought they might be up to something after Shepard left them in ME2, and you can assume he knows about them wanting the collector base and such from Shepard.

 

Hackett had no idea where Cerberus was going to show up, he's just saying he thinks they're up to something and might eventually show up, and after Mars his suspicion was confirmed so naturally he mentions it. Hackett never knew Cerberus was going to be on Mars.

Doesn't matter. If he thought they might be up to something he shoudl've gave Shepard a heads up just in case regardless if Cerberus would or would not show up. Shepard has been under arrest for the last 6 months and has no idea what has happened in that time. 

[dreamgazer]

I did anticipate, though, that Shep and team would infiltrate one of the reapers to find the weak spot on the inside and exploit it so that other teams could do the same and thereby destroy the reaper fleet one by one.... something like that. Would have been nice.

 

Indoctrination makes this a no-go, as does the fact that the Reapers could simply respond to the discovery of this "weak spot".  Thousands of Reapers aren't just gonna sit there and let infiltration teams punch their soft underbellies.

[RoboticWater]

I never said Harbinger was particularly well handled in ME2, but a direct line to the Reapers would have fixed more than a couple problems ME3 had with pacing. Harbinger was the logical choice because he's the leader and seems to have a fascination with Shepard. As I said earlier, I also think his "assuming direct control," bit would have been an interesting concept to explore closer to home. Comparing each entry of the series, it seems BioWare needs someone to push the main plot along. It doesn't matter who that is, just that he's there.

 

I agree with Han that the whole Cerberus plot would've been better handled if they hadn't flipped sides so abruptly. I understand (though don't completely agree with) BioWare's choice to turn Cerberus evil. Obviously, the writers didn't do a great job handing the moral ambiguity of the organization and certainly didn't leave much room for subtlety, but the concept itself is reasonable, especially when their base literally flies too close to a sun. The reason I advocate for less Cerberus screen time is that I know writing is hard and putting that writing into a game is ever harder.

 

IMO, I can't say the shift in focus was logistically sound. The writers knew they would only have so much time to tell a story and that they'd had to parse out slots for tying up each loose end. Like all projects, some stuff has to get cut down or taken out entirely to fit in the more important parts. Unfortunately, it seems BioWare didn't prioritize very well and gave too much focus to Cerberus and not enough to the integral characters and devices of the main plot e.g (Reapers, Catalyst, Crucible, etc.). As much as I would have liked both the betrayal of Cerberus and a satisfactory Reaper arc, I don't think BioWare had enough time to do both.

[SimonTheFrog]

Indoctrination makes this a no-go, as does the fact that the Reapers could simply respond to the discovery of this "weak spot".  Thousands of Reapers aren't just gonna sit there and let infiltration teams punch their soft underbellies.

 

True... as a writer i would first let Shep help finding a method to block indoctrination. Similar to Mordin developping a shield against seeker swarms in ME2.

Next step: the soft underbelly. I would have exploitet the organic part of the reapers. Because of symbolism and stuff. I don't how exactly, but I'd probably have the shep crew find that controlling unit that interfaces organic matter with tech and block that unit. This would cause both parts to stop working together correctly, rendering the whole ship to malfunction (not to comepletely destroy it but it's enough to start attacking it with ships from the outside).

 

Since the reapers are fundamentally both organic and tech, seperating those two worlds would be something they have no counter-measures for.

 

Stuff like that.

 

You know, actually work with the themes of life, technology, unity, diversty and all that.

[Linkenski]

Doesn't matter. If he thought they might be up to something he shoudl've gave Shepard a heads up just in case regardless if Cerberus would or would not show up. Shepard has been under arrest for the last 6 months and has no idea what has happened in that time. 

He's professional, and he shouldn't let his hunches get the better of him. Personally i wouldn't have been okay with Hackett saying "But a warning Shepard... I think Cerberus might be there!" because it makes him seem omniscent in the narrative and he has no logical way of knowing Cerberus was there.

[themikefest]

He's professional, and he shouldn't let his hunches get the better of him. Personally i wouldn't have been okay with Hackett saying "But a warning Shepard... I think Cerberus might be there!" because it makes him seem omniscent in the narrative and he has no logical way of knowing Cerberus was there.

If he didn't want his hunches get the better of him, then he needs tto keep that comment to himself