103 réponses à ce sujet

[xROLLxTIDEx]

2-handed warriors have insane DPS.

Which is why, imo, once you have stacked enough promotions and built up hefty damage resistances, the 2 handed warriors become the best classes in the game as they currently are.

[Aegore]

Completely disagree. Just because there's no PvP does not throw balance out the window. When one class is clearly superior (AW) or inferior (Katari), the frequency of seeing these classes be played is adjusted accordingly. If nothing else, I would think people would prefer having more varied teams.

 

Please stop saying "every character is viable". By that line of thinking, a character with Stealth, Caltrops, Evade, and Hook and Tackle is viable. And I bet plenty of players would be able to solo Perilous with it, too. But if I gave you a class whose best 4 skills were those, would you still say "it's fine, it's viable, leave it alone" ? If so, kudos to you.

 

AW is not superior in any way because they have low DPS compared to 2H melee characters. Also every character is viable doesn't mean every build is viable in any situation. Another thing, this is a multiplayer game and shouldn't be balanced towards soloing lol.

[CelticRanger275]

Every time I see these "balance" threads it makes me think of how every mmo i've played has been ruined and homogenized by the balance police.  I can't think of why you'd really want every class to basically be the same.  All you have is different animations for the exact same result.  So, in essence, you want to be able to change the pretty icons on your button layout without changing the result of pushing them, regardless of your class.  BORING

 

PS:  It isn't PVP (echo echo echo) so why even cry about balance issues?!?!  You should be able to stroke your e-peen for being a badass barrier ****** just as much as for being a kill topping archer.

[haxaw]

AW is not superior in any way because they have low DPS compared to 2H melee characters. Also every character is viable doesn't mean every build is viable in any situation. Another thing, this is a multiplayer game and shouldn't be balanced towards soloing lol.

 

I recommend you play an AW with CL, PotA, FC, and Stonefist with all the Weaken passives. The fact that you can stand in place with near-invulnerability and constantly pump out massive damage should speak for itself. The shock, stun, sleep, pull, weaken, damage increase, enemy damage decrease are all icing on the cake. All without having to take a single step. I contend your "2H melee dps" won't out-dps it by much, if at all. Remember, dps is damage per second. The clock is ticking even as you run up to the enemy.

 

And honestly, starting your response with "AW is not superior in any way" doesn't instill much confidence...just saying.

[Altruismo]

I recommend you play an AW with CL, PotA, FC, and Stonefist with all the Weaken passives.

 

I've played this build, my Reaver absolutely destroys it for damage output.

I prefer using CL, PotA, Stonefist and Veilstrike these days because it lets me help the actual damage dealers instead of trying to compete (and lose) against them.

If you think AW deals high damage, I recommend you try some of the "weak" classes.

[haxaw]

I've played this build, my Reaver absolutely destroys it for damage output.

 

Really? You're sure you're not ignoring the time you take to run up to the mobs, as well as the time it takes you to go from group to group?

 

I've promoted every class several times, and even now I rotate through all of them on a regular basis. Literally just finished 3 PuG Perilous games with the Reaver and did massive damage. But I'd be remiss in mentioning a good deal of time was spent LoSing and kiting, all of which detracts from the DPS figure of merit. Once again, every moment you spend not attacking, your dps is dropping.

 

In my opinion, the only thing keeping Reaver from being completely broken pre-patch was the Rampage bug, but I think the nerf was overdone. I've said this several times, but having Dragon Rage work as the tooltip says (health cost and lifesteal) would have probably been a happy medium. Maybe even reducing the damage a bit would have been fine. Someone mentioned having "different playstyles". Well, having a hybrid tank-dps whose staying power relies on lifesteal is a niche not currently filled.

 

The Katari has been and still is bottom of the pack.

[Kapsejs]

Really? You're sure you're not ignoring the time you take to run up to the mobs, as well as the time it takes you to go from group to group?

 

I've promoted every class several times, and even now I rotate through all of them on a regular basis. Literally just finished 3 PuG Perilous games with the Reaver and did massive damage. But I'd be remiss in mentioning a good deal of time was spent LoSing and kiting, all of which detracts from the DPS figure of merit. Once again, every moment you spend not attacking, your dps is dropping.

 

In my opinion, the only thing keeping Reaver from being completely broken pre-patch was the Rampage bug, but I think the nerf was overdone. I've said this several times, but having Dragon Rage work as the tooltip says (health cost and lifesteal) would have probably been a happy medium. Maybe even reducing the damage a bit would have been fine. Someone mentioned having "different playstyles". Well, having a hybrid tank-dps whose staying power relies on lifesteal is a niche not currently filled.

 

The Katari has been and still is bottom of the pack.

 

The Katari is fun, though. 

[haxaw]

The Katari is fun, though. 

 

Are you kidding me? The fact that I get to choochookachoo at lvl 1 means I keep coming back to it, against my better judgement. All the while, my better judgement is advocating for some rational reason to love the class. Please. Let my heart and mind agree.

[Altruismo]

Really? You're sure you're not ignoring the time you take to run up to the mobs, as well as the time it takes you to go from group to group?

 

 

It's adorable that you think an AW is going to kill a whole pack in perilous before a Reaver can walk up to them, especially since your AW is magically doing it with Fade Cloak "without taking a step"

[haxaw]

It's adorable that you think an AW is going to kill a whole pack in perilous before a Reaver can walk up to them, especially since your AW is magically doing it with Fade Cloak "without taking a step"

 

Please don't put words in my posts. I said the dps will be comparable, and certainly not "destroyed". Do you understand the concept of dps? The actual DPS comparison would be, from the same starting point, will a Reaver clear out the pull in a TOTAL amount of time that "destroys" the AW's time?  The answer is an unequivocal NO.

 

That means, from the moment the Reaver walks into the room, the AW starts outputting damage. The Reaver reaches some mobs and wrecks them, the AW is still dps'ing away. According to the "Reaver dps >>>> AW dps" claim, the Reaver would be done with the entire room waaaaaayyy before the AW is. If you believe that is true, then there's not much more for me to say.

 

Edit: don't forget how annoying blocking is for a Reaver. If you're using Devour/Pommel (high stamina cost) or PanicHorn (moderate cast time, long time chasing frantic mobs down), then your dps is suffering, assuming that brief block-backlash-stun didn't cost you most of your health from one arrow. Every single second you spend getting around these issues is another second your dps lags behind someone spamming away.

[McPartyson]

Please don't put words in my posts. I said the dps will be comparable, and certainly not "destroyed". Do you understand the concept of dps? The actual DPS comparison would be, from the same starting point, will a Reaver clear out the pull in a TOTAL amount of time that "destroys" the AW's time?  The answer is an unequivocal NO.

 

That means, from the moment the Reaver walks into the room, the AW starts outputting damage. The Reaver reaches some mobs and wrecks them, the AW is still dps'ing away. According to the "Reaver dps >>>> AW dps" claim, the Reaver would be done with the entire room waaaaaayyy before the AW is. If you believe that is true, then there's not much more for me to say.

 

Agree with this. AW is much less of a liability in a group. The rest of the team can rest easy and focus on their own DPS instead of keeping the retarded Reaver alive. Everything will die in a very small amount of time anyways, so any extra dps that the Reaver does bring (lol) makes no difference. Suvivability becomes key because a 4 man group usually does more than enough DPS as long as everyone is standing. 

 

Survivability AW > Reaver

[Altruismo]

 Do you understand the concept of dps? The actual DPS comparison would be, from the same starting point, will a Reaver clear out the pull in a TOTAL amount of time that "destroys" the AW's time?  The answer is an unequivocal NO.

 

Do you understand what DPS means?

A Reaver will hit that group well before CL and Stonefist are off Cooldown - where's your DPS coming from? A 150DPS staff? Fade Cloak from 20m away?

Dragon Rage easily exceeds 3000DPS on a single target before it increases by 30% when the Reaver gets their first kill, and it can hit multiple targets, and it has no cooldown. It's so much more than an AW can ever do it's ridiculous that I even have to argue with you about it.

If you'd rather try to compete with the Reaver for DPS by taking fade-cloak, instead of taking Veil Strike to knock down anyone that might block their attacks and guarantee them a further 30% damage increase, you're the liability.

[holdenagincourt]

If classes are as equal as possible you won't get variety in builds and classes. This is a co-op game and each class within the group will have a specific role to contribute. All classes are perfectly viable on every difficulty, you just have to know how to play each specific class in the different difficulties and what role you are taking on for your group.

 

You're using the term "equal" to confuse a comparable level of effectiveness with filling the same niche. If all classes have the same level of power/effectiveness, there will be more variety in classes used, not less.

 

"All classes are perfectly viable on every difficulty" is not what is being debated here. Viability is a different standard than balance and in most ways quite a bit looser (bordering on tautological, as there isn't really any disconfirming evidence for the term in this context). People here probably know how to play the specific class and a balance discussion is not a call for people to throw shade on other people's personal skill.

 

I really wish I didn't have to get this nuts and bolts again after the years we spent trying to get people to realize this on the ME3 subforum. The lack of live balance changes in DAMP, I fear, is ennervating the game at a very early stage.

[haxaw]

Do you understand what DPS means?

A Reaver will hit that group well before CL and Stonefist are off Cooldown - where's your DPS coming from? A 150DPS staff? Fade Cloak from 20m away?

Dragon Rage easily exceeds 3000DPS on a single target before it increases by 30% when the Reaver gets their first kill, and it can hit multiple targets, and it has no cooldown. It's so much more than an AW can ever do it's ridiculous that I even have to argue with you about it.

If you'd rather try to compete with the Reaver for DPS by taking fade-cloak, instead of taking Veil Strike to knock down anyone that might block their attacks and guarantee them a further 30% damage increase, you're the liability.

 

Damage. Per. Second.

 

Each second you spend NOT HITTING SOMETHING counts. As a second. And, surprise surprise, that reduces your DPS. Your 3000 DPS number is high, but how many seconds are you dealing that damage? 0.5s? 1s? (and you should realize that overkilling things by 237591 dmg doesn't contribute to your actual damage dealt). Then the mob is dead, and you're back to running at the next target. As you run, your 3000 DPS is dropping. Fast. If you dealt 3000 DPS for 2 seconds, and run for 2 seconds, your overall DPS is now 1500 DPS. If you run for 4s, then you're down to 1000 DPS. If you get blocked, it drops even further. This is not including all the time it took for you to run up to the mobs in the first place, being careful not to take any arrows and evading melee rushers.

 

Your vaunted numbers are only valid in a very tiny window of time. This is also known as burst damage. Yes, Reaver does unparalleled burst damage (maybe Stealth-crit full-health Full Draw or Stealth-crit flank-Hidden Blades). But sustained DPS, Reaver won't "destroy" an offensive AW.

 

I have made no personal attacks against you or your intelligence. Please take care to return the courtesy.

[SiLve]

I've played this build, my Reaver absolutely destroys it for damage output.

I prefer using CL, PotA, Stonefist and Veilstrike these days because it lets me help the actual damage dealers instead of trying to compete (and lose) against them.

If you think AW deals high damage, I recommend you try some of the "weak" classes.

 

what beats a class which can kill 1-20 on preilous mobs in 3 seconds ? Eh ? *i mean 3 seconds after you saw them on your screen not that you start using your damage skills ^^*

AW is godmode... or easymode... w/e

 

after the reaper nerf.. the 2h guys are kinda screwed.

AW needs a barrier nerf to 5% ( or somekind of nerf that you just gain barrier from 1 mob you damage and not all at once )

ElE needs a barrier nerf
KP needs a barrier buff.. if the ElE stays like it is .... serious something like.. you buff yourself barrier and every melee gets 25% ( that would fix the 2h problem imo )
2h melee´s need a buff armor wise..

melee rouges are perfect.. well easy mode but not godlike.

archers.. well archers are archers... the real archer is a creepkiller the hunter is a guy for the bigger problems

the tanks are almost fine.. aslong your not fighting +2 mobs ( we call it like that when pugs die )

 

but overall.. i start to hate 2h in my pug parties... serious.. there are just a few ppl who know how to use them and not to die... and still the performance is just not as good as from other classes.

 

*for the record my most played char is the keeper... so iam not a real rambo anyways.. you just can carry every party through per. when you dont wana use an AW*

[IanLai]

If you try to balance all the characters for a player who has the base 10/10/10 starting stats, will those characters still be balanced once that player's base stats have reached 50/50/50?

 

I think that certain classes benefit more from promotions than other classes.  All classes benefit from promotions, some more so than others.  Considering that you have new players entering the game with base stats of 10/10/10 and long time players who have base stats over 50/50/50, how do you truly balance the classes when stacking promotions effect classes differently.

the only thing that can be done is a separate difficulties/ game mode independent of promotion .

this mean promotion does not have effect on attributes/ cap at certain threshold 20/20/20 something

seriously i really don't know who think about promotion can give you unlimited attributes .

[Aegore]

Damage. Per. Second.

 

Each second you spend NOT HITTING SOMETHING counts. As a second. And, surprise surprise, that reduces your DPS. Your 3000 DPS number is high, but how many seconds are you dealing that damage? 0.5s? 1s? (and you should realize that overkilling things by 237591 dmg doesn't contribute to your actual damage dealt). Then the mob is dead, and you're back to running at the next target. As you run, your 3000 DPS is dropping. Fast. If you dealt 3000 DPS for 2 seconds, and run for 2 seconds, your overall DPS is now 1500 DPS. If you run for 4s, then you're down to 1000 DPS. If you get blocked, it drops even further. This is not including all the time it took for you to run up to the mobs in the first place, being careful not to take any arrows and evading melee rushers.

 

Your vaunted numbers are only valid in a very tiny window of time. This is also known as burst damage. Yes, Reaver does unparalleled burst damage (maybe Stealth-crit full-health Full Draw or Stealth-crit flank-Hidden Blades). But sustained DPS, Reaver won't "destroy" an offensive AW.

 

I have made no personal attacks against you or your intelligence. Please take care to return the courtesy.

 

I'm always sad to see AW's in my Perilous PUG because of how slowly they kill stuff. The survivability the AW has doesn't make up for his lack of DPS. I would much rather have a Elementalist in my group who can provide some decent AOE DPS. Reaver will always out-DPS an AW because their sustained DPS is simply so high. If you knew how to play the Reaver then you'd know that even on Perilous you'll be ripping enemies apart. People who die using any class are simply new to that class and shouldn't be playing Perilous until they learn how to play that class proficiently. Every player has a different play style/skill so they will synergize with different classes.

 

If you're not a support class AND you deal low DPS (AW), then you are the liability in my group. 1 support (keeper or elementalist), 1 tank, 2 DPS (not AW plz - lowers our xp/gold per/hr)

[MrNo]

IMO, the top 3 and the bottom 3 of classes are as follows (playing in PS4). 

 

1. AW: Definitely needs a nerf, just way too strong. 

2. Elementalist: So much AOE with the ability to cast a barrier, I think it's the second strongest. 

3. Keeper: While it's supposed to be a support class, in the right hands, it can be the make or break for the whole group, let alone it can solo perilous. 

 

10. Hunter: maybe I just didn't manage to play it very well, but didn't feel like I added too much to the group. 

11. Katari: Not the last just because it's fun. Definitely needs a buff - maybe an easier way to build armor

12. Alchemist - So weak that it makes me cry. Even with 2 > level 20 daggers, I felt bad when people revived me while I'm playing alchemist, as it's really not that useful.  Definitely needs a buff. 

 

For Reaver, if they apply the patch 3 to the PS4, I suspect it will replace hunter in the 10th spot.. I think it's balanced as it stands before the patch. 

[Kenny Bania]

IMO, the top 3 and the bottom 3 of classes are as follows (playing in PS4). 

 

1. AW: Definitely needs a nerf, just way too strong. 

2. Elementalist: So much AOE with the ability to cast a barrier, I think it's the second strongest. 

3. Keeper: While it's supposed to be a support class, in the right hands, it can be the make or break for the whole group, let alone it can solo perilous. 

 

10. Hunter: maybe I just didn't manage to play it very well, but didn't feel like I added too much to the group. 

11. Katari: Not the last just because it's fun. Definitely needs a buff - maybe an easier way to build armor

12. Alchemist - So weak that it makes me cry. Even with 2 > level 20 daggers, I felt bad when people revived me while I'm playing alchemist, as it's really not that useful.  Definitely needs a buff. 

 

For Reaver, if they apply the patch 3 to the PS4, I suspect it will replace hunter in the 10th spot.. I think it's balanced as it stands before the patch. 

 

Yeah, no.

[haxaw]

Reaver will always out-DPS an AW because their sustained DPS is simply so high. If you knew how to play the Reaver then you'd know that even on Perilous you'll be ripping enemies apart. People who die using any class are simply new to that class and shouldn't be playing Perilous until they learn how to play that class proficiently. Every player has a different play style/skill so they will synergize with different classes.

 

Sustained doesn't mean what you apparently think it does. Please read my posts above before continuing to insist otherwise. We're not talking about burst damage, where the Reaver is nearly unparalleled. I've explicitly said this above, and provided very simple numerical illustrations (using figures a Reaver-dps-supporter provided, no less).

 

Insulting my ability to play a class without any evidence whatsoever reflects very poorly on your approach to measured discussion. Assuming that I "die using any class" and "shouldn't be playing Perilous" because I claim Reaver DPS does not hugely outclass AW DPS is a personal attack that contributes nothing to the topic.

 

I enjoy playing Reaver in Perilous PuGs greatly. No, I'm not on my knees half the time, and yes, I top the scoreboards more often than not. But I also realize that I have much better gear than your average PuG player, and I would have had a much easier and efficient time with most other classes without having to rely on friendly Barrier. I shouldn't have to defend my ability to play the Reaver when we're having a debate on whether one class "destroys" another in DPS, but it seems that's what it's come down to.

[Robbiesan]

IMO, the top 3 and the bottom 3 of classes are as follows (playing in PS4). 

 

12. Alchemist - So weak that it makes me cry. Even with 2 > level 20 daggers, I felt bad when people revived me while I'm playing alchemist, as it's really not that useful.  Definitely needs a buff. 

 

 

Have to disagree at least on this one.  I too felt the Alchemist weak at first.  I simply did not know how to play her properly.  With some practice, some decent daggers (high rares, uniques), abilities/passives, and tactic, if you are not taking 1st or 2nd place consistently in at least Threatening, you are doing something wrong.  There are plenty of experienced players here that can confirm this.

[MrNo]

Have to disagree at least on this one.  I too felt the Alchemist weak at first.  I simply did not know how to play her properly.  With some practice, some decent daggers (high rares, uniques), abilities/passives, and tactic, if you are not taking 1st or 2nd place consistently in at least Threatening, you are doing something wrong.  There are plenty of experienced players here that can confirm this.

 

You might be right, maybe I played it wrong. I used the build of Penguin and he seemed to think as I thought too. Could you share your own build? Would appreciate your suggestions. 

 

For the daggers, both are above 20 (a rare and a unique), and my DPS was always very decent, so they're not the problem.

 

The problem was that any small mistake (or the DC showing up, or the Red Templar boss earthquake hit when I was killing an archer) I was dead. Even during the momentary switch from flank attack to invisibility, I could find myself with 10% of health vs beginning of the move. I could show up in the 1st of 2nd place if the team was good (because I was doing lots of clean up), but I never felt like I could solo even in Threatening difficulty. This class seemed always like a suboptimal assassin to me... 

[Aegore]

Sustained doesn't mean what you apparently think it does. Please read my posts above before continuing to insist otherwise. We're not talking about burst damage, where the Reaver is nearly unparalleled. I've explicitly said this above, and provided very simple numerical illustrations (using figures a Reaver-dps-supporter provided, no less).

 

Insulting my ability to play a class without any evidence whatsoever reflects very poorly on your approach to measured discussion. Assuming that I "die using any class" and "shouldn't be playing Perilous" because I claim Reaver DPS does not hugely outclass AW DPS is a personal attack that contributes nothing to the topic.

 

I enjoy playing Reaver in Perilous PuGs greatly. No, I'm not on my knees half the time, and yes, I top the scoreboards more often than not. But I also realize that I have much better gear than your average PuG player, and I would have had a much easier and efficient time with most other classes without having to rely on friendly Barrier. I shouldn't have to defend my ability to play the Reaver when we're having a debate on whether one class "destroys" another in DPS, but it seems that's what it's come down to.

 

I provided no insult, simply suggested that you keep practicing so that you can get better at playing the classes where you have opportunities so you don't have to cry "AW is OP" like all the other noobs. I'm only looking out for you since everyone has to start somewhere. Also, the Reaver may be able to provide burst DPS like you say but he can certainly sustain it as well while cycling rampage, devour, war horn and dragon rage. Good luck and have fun!

[haxaw]

I provided no insult, simply suggested that you keep practicing so that you can get better at playing the classes where you have opportunities so you don't have to cry "AW is OP" like all the other noobs. I'm only looking out for you since everyone has to start somewhere. Also, the Reaver may be able to provide burst DPS like you say but he can certainly sustain it as well while cycling rampage, devour, war horn and dragon rage. Good luck and have fun!

 

I'm sorry, but the passive-aggressive patronizing is leading us nowhere. You have neither acknowledged nor addressed any of my arguments, and it doesn't look like you intend to do so any time soon. In any case, my rationale has been laid out for anyone that cares to consider it.

 

Good luck to you, too.

[Aegore]

IMO, the top 3 and the bottom 3 of classes are as follows (playing in PS4). 

 

1. AW: Definitely needs a nerf, just way too strong. 

2. Elementalist: So much AOE with the ability to cast a barrier, I think it's the second strongest. 

3. Keeper: While it's supposed to be a support class, in the right hands, it can be the make or break for the whole group, let alone it can solo perilous. 

 

10. Hunter: maybe I just didn't manage to play it very well, but didn't feel like I added too much to the group. 

11. Katari: Not the last just because it's fun. Definitely needs a buff - maybe an easier way to build armor

12. Alchemist - So weak that it makes me cry. Even with 2 > level 20 daggers, I felt bad when people revived me while I'm playing alchemist, as it's really not that useful.  Definitely needs a buff. 

 

For Reaver, if they apply the patch 3 to the PS4, I suspect it will replace hunter in the 10th spot.. I think it's balanced as it stands before the patch. 

 

So basically this is a list on 1-12 classes you know how to play and the further down we get the less you know how to play a certain class. I'd suggest practicing your weak classes so you can bring them to the top of the list! Good luck and have fun!