72 réponses à ce sujet

[Egermano]

LoL grey wardens weren't portrayed any differently in dai than in dao as game outright says that grey warden are pretty much about being completely ruthless to accomplish their goals so it isn't that grey wardens were ever knights in shining armor they were always about "end justifies the means".

 

I don't remember them murdering children and their comrades in DAO. And that was during a blight.

 

The end might justify the means, but that implies that the means should result in the end by a reasonable chance. With a demon army things will go wrong. That is why we had to stop them. There is a huge distance between "allowed to do evil (by whatever moral standards), but generally doing good things" and actually "doing evil". That's the distance between GWs in DAO and GWs in DAI. 

[TheKomandorShepard]

I don't remember them murdering children and their comrades in DAO. And that was during a blight.

 

The end might justify the means, but that implies that the means should result in the end by a reasonable chance. With a demon army things will go wrong. 

Because you never saw them in dao practically they had no involvement in fifth blight and dao was about the warden who was pc and had practically nothing to do with grey warden order.

 

Grey wardens aren't above using blood magic or demons and as i said they live by end justify means in fact one time we saw grey warden order in dao they pretty much did exactly the same thing they did in dai.

[Egermano]

Because you never saw them in dao practically they had no involvement in fifth blight and dao was about the warden who was pc and had practically nothing to do with grey warden order.

 

Grey wardens aren't above using blood magic or demons and as i said they live by end justify means in fact one time we saw grey warden order in dao they pretty much did exactly the same thing they did in dai.

 

Even if you can direct me to that scene, your argument does not hold up. The picture the player gets of GWs in DAO is entirely different. It is a heroic picture, they are last force between life and total destruction. They might have been harsh and ruthless sometimes in DAO, but that's far from the total corruption that happened in DAI.

 

It seems to me that you are trying to prove that grey is black, or something like that. It is not. GWs were always above the law but it doesn't mean they abused their right. They wouldn't have been allowed back to Feralden if it was so. The Feralden GW contingent was small, but it was heroic enough to make impact. You can't say "practically they had no involvement in fifth blight". It's simply not true.

[TheKomandorShepard]

Even if you can direct me to that scene, your argument does not hold up. The picture the player gets of GWs in DAO is entirely different. It is a heroic picture, they are last force between life and total destruction. They might have been harsh and ruthless sometimes in DAO, but that's far from the total corruption that happened in DAI.

 

It seems to me that you are trying to prove that grey is black, or something like that. It is not. GWs were always above the law but it doesn't mean they abused their right. They wouldn't have been allowed back to Feralden if it was so. The Feralden GW contingent was small, but it was heroic enough to make impact. You can't say "practically they had no involvement in fifth blight". It's simply not true.

LoL not at all series never claimed that grey wardens were heroes grey wardens were always showed to player as dark anti-heroes that do a lot of nasty stuff to fight blight and important trait in their philosophy is end justifies the means as it is soldier's peak shows.

 

More like you are trying paint them as white and heroic not grey if you ignored part "stop darkspawn no matter the cost" your own fault but pretty it is what they were doing in dai.GW were dead only grey warden contribution was riordan and here it ends. 

[Egermano]

GW were dead only grey warden contribution was riordan and here it ends. 

 

You seem to forget the whole introduction and origin story, which is GW heavy.

[TheKomandorShepard]

You seem to forget the whole introduction and origin story, which is GW heavy.

Yes and they all died there before blight started.

[Egermano]

Yes and they all died there before blight started.

 

It was when the blight started, and it was a rather heroic death, ne?

[raging_monkey]

It was when the blight started, and it was a rather heroic death, ne?

slew a good mount too

[TheKomandorShepard]

It was when the blight started, and it was a rather heroic death, ne?

Hardly it was slaughter and that don't make any contribution in stoping fifth blight.

[GrinningRogue]

The picture the player gets of GWs in DAO is entirely different. It is a heroic picture, they are last force between life and total destruction. They might have been harsh and ruthless sometimes in DAO, but that's far from the total corruption that happened in DAI.

 

Duncan and human noble origins. And Duncan is shown to be one of the more heroic ones. Then there's Avernus. And Riordan's speech in the Landsmeet. If those don't make a point about the morality of the wardens, idk what does.

 

Wardens always have the capability to be the corrupt asses shown in DAI. It just happens that in DA:O this assholery is restricted to what 1 person can do (you, Alistair doesn't count, since he doesn't really make decisions). Also, the whole "you are a Grey Warden" doesn't really matter until the very end. You might as well just be another guy not wanting your homeland to be overrun by the blight.

 

The picture the player gets of GWs in DAO is entirely different. It is a heroic picture, they are last force between life and total destruction. They might have been harsh and ruthless sometimes in DAO, but that's far from the total corruption that happened in DAI.

 

It seems to me that you are trying to prove that grey is black, or something like that. It is not. GWs were always above the law but it doesn't mean they abused their right. They wouldn't have been allowed back to Feralden if it was so. The Feralden GW contingent was small, but it was heroic enough to make impact. You can't say "practically they had no involvement in fifth blight". It's simply not true.

 

The picture they paint in DAO is heroic because those are the tales told by common people who has no idea what being in the wardens is like. To those people, wardens embody a selfless ideal, saving mankind from utter destruction at the cost of their own lives. The wardens don't go around telling people that's the saving mankind part is really about "as long as there's enough of us left, whatever means are allowed", because then, nobody will want to join. Your character can live up to these ideals, but they don't really show what the rest of the order is like.

 

GW were allowed back into Ferelden because of the events in The Stolen Throne and The Calling (novels), not because they are heroic.

[DuskWanderer]

Another day, someone else obsessed with the darkspawn and the Warden.

 

Thedas is not just a place where nothing happens between Blights, and the darkspawn are but one thing that happens in the world (a thing that barely anyone outside of dwarves deals with outside of Blights)

 

Stop focusing on one thing: There is a world, let's see it. 

[Egermano]

Stop focusing on one thing: There is a world, let's see it. 

 

Oh, I see the world in all it's colors, and I like it. I'm not obsessed with the Wardens, in general, only maybe with my Warden She was a paragon of her kind and not childkiller or whatever wardens do in DAI.

 

My point is that DAI doesn't do justice to the Wardens, and I'll defend that till the end of times.

[Eliastion]

Another day, someone else obsessed with the darkspawn and the Warden.

 

Thedas is not just a place where nothing happens between Blights, and the darkspawn are but one thing that happens in the world (a thing that barely anyone outside of dwarves deals with outside of Blights)

 

Stop focusing on one thing: There is a world, let's see it. 

On one hand, you're right, there's a lot to do in Thedas, many stories to tell. The problem is, that there is this drive to go "more epic" and if an installment is LESS epic than the previous ones, it gets backlash. After starting with potentially world-threatening Blight, it gets hard to go to some hero of a petty war somewhere. A small war could actually have a big hero, but that's not what people generally expect from Dragon Age... And most things happening all around Thedas are significantly smaller in scale than blight-related ones (Cory IS Blight-related).

[dsl08002]

At the beginning i found the search for a cure against the taint acceptable, but after some time reflecting lore ,story and context, the cure sounds like a selfish act. As well looking at the amount of impact the inquisiter story had with hawke, in comparison with that the cure seems so utterly diminished and lazy story writing for a big hero like the warden. It just doesnt make any sense. And we all know that the idea of having warden instead of stroud was scrapped and bioware didnt had the time to figuer something out along with fixing certain plot errors like a romanced leliana knew from the beginning what the warden was doing but it was implanted in the story thAt leliana didnt know ( cassandra mentions that she and leliana thought that hawkes disappearance was connected to the warden). So bioware didnt correct those errors.

You might argue that its a cure for all wardens but that doesnt says it outright and it depends on the letter you get, who you romanced and who you got the mission from.

In my case male cousland warden, Got mission from LI leliana and in that letter along with the conversation with leliana it just seems like the warden is selfish not dropping what he is doing and head straight for skyhold regardless of obsticles in his way even if its a long distance.

Which is why i hope there is a bigger and more complicated plot behind it all rather searching for a cure. A plot that doesnt involve the cure at all even though he was searching for a cure in the first place.

[TheKomandorShepard]

At the beginning i found the search for a cure against the taint acceptable, but after some time reflecting lore ,story and context, the cure sounds like a selfish act. As well looking at the amount of impact the inquisiter story had with hawke, in comparison with that the cure seems so utterly diminished and lazy story writing for a big hero like the warden. It just doesnt make any sense. And we all know that the idea of having warden instead of stroud was scrapped and bioware didnt had the time to figuer something out along with fixing certain plot errors like a romanced leliana knew from the beginning what the warden was doing but it was implanted in the story thAt leliana didnt know ( cassandra mentions that she and leliana thought that hawkes disappearance was connected to the warden). So bioware didnt correct those errors.

You might argue that its a cure for all wardens but that doesnt says it outright and it depends on the letter you get, who you romanced and who you got the mission from.

In my case male cousland warden, Got mission from LI leliana and in that letter along with the conversation with leliana it just seems like the warden is selfish not dropping what he is doing and head straight for skyhold regardless of obsticles in his way even if its a long distance.

Which is why i hope there is a bigger and more complicated plot behind it all rather searching for a cure. A plot that doesnt involve the cure at all even though he was searching for a cure in the first place.

This is pretty much reason why you shouldn't reveal anything about previous blank rpg protagonists things they do are for many of my wardens character breaking.

 

I don't see how the warden supposedly was going to be on stroud place in first place.In fact leliana didn't know where warden was even if romanced where she only knew what s/he was doing and inquisitor had to send spies.

[Warden Majere]

Even if you can direct me to that scene, your argument does not hold up. The picture the player gets of GWs in DAO is entirely different. It is a heroic picture, they are last force between life and total destruction. They might have been harsh and ruthless sometimes in DAO, but that's far from the total corruption that happened in DAI.

 

It seems to me that you are trying to prove that grey is black, or something like that. It is not. GWs were always above the law but it doesn't mean they abused their right. They wouldn't have been allowed back to Feralden if it was so. The Feralden GW contingent was small, but it was heroic enough to make impact. You can't say "practically they had no involvement in fifth blight". It's simply not true.

The Wardens practically had no involvement in the Fifth Blight. It was the HoF, along with Alistair, and a little help from Riordan, that stopped the Blight. Also, the Wardens are depicted from the very beginning to be ruthless. Don't you remember Duncan stabbing Ser Jory to death in cold blood? I think that there are two main reasons that the Wardens as a whole are being depicted as "heroes" in your mind. The first, is that you most likely played your Warden(s) as a good person. They helped people for free, were kind to children (possessed or otherwise), and preserved an ancient holy artifact. Second, is the tales of the Wardens. Now, I put emphasis on tales for a reason. They are TALES! We have seen through Inquisition, that they tales passed down through the generations are blown at of proportion, at the very best. Often, they are straight up lies. Remember one thing, "he who wins the war, writes the history books." The Wardens have always defeated the blight, and thus stories of their "heroics" are sung through the ages. 

 

No one includes in these stories the blood magic, and demons. Until the HoF retook Soldier's Peak, no one knew why the wardens were truly banished from Fereldan. No one includes the blood magic and demons, but they've always been there.

[Egermano]

The Wardens practically had no involvement in the Fifth Blight. It was the HoF, along with Alistair, and a little help from Riordan, that stopped the Blight. Also, the Wardens are depicted from the very beginning to be ruthless. Don't you remember Duncan stabbing Ser Jory to death in cold blood? I think that there are two main reasons that the Wardens as a whole are being depicted as "heroes" in your mind. The first, is that you most likely played your Warden(s) as a good person. They helped people for free, were kind to children (possessed or otherwise), and preserved an ancient holy artifact. Second, is the tales of the Wardens. Now, I put emphasis on tales for a reason. They are TALES! We have seen through Inquisition, that they tales passed down through the generations are blown at of proportion, at the very best. Often, they are straight up lies. Remember one thing, "he who wins the war, writes the history books." The Wardens have always defeated the blight, and thus stories of their "heroics" are sung through the ages. 

 

No one includes in these stories the blood magic, and demons. Until the HoF retook Soldier's Peak, no one knew why the wardens were truly banished from Fereldan. No one includes the blood magic and demons, but they've always been there.

 

Ruthlessness doesn't necessarily mean killing children, and heroic doesn't exclude ruthlessness.

 

I feel I'm repeating myself. I simply don't see my arguments countered. The story of GWs in DAI is exclusively black, with no shades of grey or white. It is a very dark picture, nothing to lighten up the tone. There is more to the Wardens than this. They are not an evil faction. Their writing is partially inspired by ASOIAF's Night's Watch, and just as them, Wardens did a fair share of crazy, but also had very honorable individuals in their history. Not to forget, they ended five blights. I miss that honorable, respectable aspect of Wardens in DAI. Yeah, we have a Stroud to show for GW honor, great. Him, and no one else. Whatever you claim, in DAO we got a lighter story, so to say, much more grey Warden story. And please stop spouting nonsense about their non-involvement. You really think that putting my (our) Hero on the Warden's path was "particularly" nothing? DAO was a Grey Warden story. It's expansion was a Grey Warden story. HoF is now a part of Grey Warden history. You can't deny this.

 

I hope that the story of Weisshaupt (when it comes) will be less on the dark side. And more on the gryphon side

[TheKomandorShepard]

Ruthlessness doesn't necessarily mean killing children, and heroic doesn't exclude ruthlessness.

 

I feel I'm repeating myself. I simply don't see my arguments countered. The story of GWs in DAI is exclusively black, with no shades of grey or white. It is a very dark picture, nothing to lighten up the tone. There is more to the Wardens than this. They are not an evil faction. Their writing is partially inspired by ASOIAF's Night's Watch, and just as them, Wardens did a fair share of crazy, but also had very honorable individuals in their history. Not to forget, they ended five blights. I miss that honorable, respectable aspect of Wardens in DAI. Yeah, we have a Stroud to show for GW honor, great. Him, and no one else. Whatever you claim, in DAO we got a lighter story, so to say, much more grey Warden story. And please stop spouting nonsense about their non-involvement. You really think that putting my (our) Hero on the Warden's path was "particularly" nothing? DAO was a Grey Warden story. It's expansion was a Grey Warden story. HoF is now a part of Grey Warden history. You can't deny this.

 

I hope that the story of Weisshaupt (when it comes) will be less on the dark side. And more on the gryphon side

 

Yes it does at least in that case pretty much by definition it throws you at anti-hero territory.
 .

Well if you feel it was black your call but as i said wardens portrait in dai isn't any different that it was when series started.And again you ignore fact that grey warden order had no part in fifth blight outside being demolished at the beginning of it thus they don't ended five blights only 4 and that don't makes them heoric in any way as it didn't make my few wardens that were pretty much ouright villain protagonists.And no HoF isn't Grey warden order and don't respresent how it works HoF is pc not mention HoF acted outside order nor order was fighting blight.    

[Warden Majere]

Ruthlessness doesn't necessarily mean killing children, and heroic doesn't exclude ruthlessness.
 
I feel I'm repeating myself. I simply don't see my arguments countered. The story of GWs in DAI is exclusively black, with no shades of grey or white. It is a very dark picture, nothing to lighten up the tone. There is more to the Wardens than this. They are not an evil faction. Their writing is partially inspired by ASOIAF's Night's Watch, and just as them, Wardens did a fair share of crazy, but also had very honorable individuals in their history. Not to forget, they ended five blights. I miss that honorable, respectable aspect of Wardens in DAI. Yeah, we have a Stroud to show for GW honor, great. Him, and no one else. Whatever you claim, in DAO we got a lighter story, so to say, much more grey Warden story. And please stop spouting nonsense about their non-involvement. You really think that putting my (our) Hero on the Warden's path was "particularly" nothing? DAO was a Grey Warden story. It's expansion was a Grey Warden story. HoF is now a part of Grey Warden history. You can't deny this.
 
I hope that the story of Weisshaupt (when it comes) will be less on the dark side. And more on the gryphon side

Ummmm... Pretty sure that thy Warden had the option to kill children in Origins. Don't you remember Connor? What about all of the slaughtered children if you side with the Templars, and help preform the Right of Anullment? So there's no way that you are going to say that only the DAI Wardens were baby killers.
Also, how did the Grey Warden order (emphasis on Order) play any part in the defeat of the Fifth Blight? Other than the obvious slaughter that gives the HoF a reason to fight, they were completely absent. The Warden goes completely against the code of the Order, and dabbles in everything that they're not supposed to.
Trust me, I drew the connection to the Grey Wardens and the Knights Watch very early on. (Great books by the way.) But, they are at they're roots, very different. The Wardens will do anything to stem the tide of Darkspawn. This includes blood magic and the murder of children. There is something that you have to understand about the Wardens in DAI, they were frightened that their entire order was about to die out. They were all experiencing the Calling. If Grey Wardens are the only people with the ability to kill the Archdemon, and they were about to become extinct, of coarse drastic measures would be taken.
Don't get me wrong, I'm not defending the Wardens in DAI, nor am I ragging on the HoF, I'm just simply laying out things the way that I see them.

[TK514]

I simply don't see my arguments countered.

 

Then you either aren't paying attention, or aren't conversing in good faith.  Soldier's Peak blows your 'the Wardens aren't demon summoners' out of the water without even trying.  Conner and Amelia pretty much destroy any idea that a specific Grey Warden would show any particular kindness to children.  Every actual Warden in authority we speak to, all two of them, goes out of their way to stress that ANY means justifies the ends.

 

You also claim there is no honor or grey in the Wardens as depicted in DA:I, which is simply untrue.  They were facing an event unprecidented in Grey Warden history, namely the entire southern order hearing the Calling all at the same time.  There was the very real possibility of leaving the entire South of Thedas completely without Archdemon killers and they knew there was (at least) one in the region that could be awoken.  Someone offered them a way to fulfill their duty and buy the Northern Wardens time to recruit and reenforce the soon to be empty Warden fortifications, and in desperation they took it.  If you think they did so blindly, or callously, then you must have skipped the entire scene where Warden Commander Clarel had to sacrifice a friend to summon her demon.  She did it because she felt she had to, he accepted it because he thought there was no other way, but both of them expressed remorse for the act, however necessary.

 

The Grey Wardens are just that, grey.  They were grey in DA:O.  They were grey in DA:A.  They were just plain dodgy in DA 2.  And they continue to be Grey in DA:I.

[In Exile]

Even if you can direct me to that scene, your argument does not hold up. The picture the player gets of GWs in DAO is entirely different. It is a heroic picture, they are last force between life and total destruction. They might have been harsh and ruthless sometimes in DAO, but that's far from the total corruption that happened in DAI.

It seems to me that you are trying to prove that grey is black, or something like that. It is not. GWs were always above the law but it doesn't mean they abused their right. They wouldn't have been allowed back to Feralden if it was so. The Feralden GW contingent was small, but it was heroic enough to make impact. You can't say "practically they had no involvement in fifth blight". It's simply not true.

Duncan executes Jory in cold blood because he's unwilling to complete the Joining to protect GW secrecy and to send a message to the other recruits. That's beyond ruthless. In a number of origins he kidnaps you using the Rite of Conscription, even while leaving your loved ones to terrible fates.

Then added to that is the Grey Warden incompetence. Duncan at Ostagar agrees to a plan so terrible it almost dooms all of Ferelden.

Not only are the GWs not usually heroic in the moral sense, they're not even good at being ruthless.

[Pack_Fan116]

So during inquisition, the hero of ferelden is investigating the source of the calling and the darkspawn.

This story should be told, and not in a text box, and it should include our wardens.

Why? because it's a journey, like origins was. Inquisition isn't a journey, you have a castle, you visit the wilderness, you return... so we never got to see denerim, or most of val royeaux, because we had our own hub and army and bed. Origins was a worn out group of people on a massive journey to save the world, always moving, trying to reach a distant goal against impossible odds.

The darkspawn have never been really explained, what do they do under the earth? Do they have a leader, are the other tavinter magisters alive (and holy crap, a group of corypheus level darkspawn as villains)? We don't know whose behind the calling, whose voice the wardens hear when it happens... it's not an archdemon, because the old gods are slumbering and have to be awoken by the darkspawn for a blight to occur. And finding the source may mean finding the old gods, which means potentially more than one archdemon.

YES, YES, YES...

You and I may be in the minority, but this is what I want more than anything.

DAO was such a great game with a rich, deep story. DA2 had much improved graphics, but honestly it felt more like a large DLC... "Come check out the adventures of this guy who escaped the blight and was at the epicenter of the mage/templar war...". It was okay, but it wasn't the game that DAO was.

I've even got the title to this hypothetical game... Dragon Age: Return of the Warden!

[XxPrincess(x)ThreatxX]

Duncan executes Jory in cold blood because he's unwilling to complete the Joining to protect GW secrecy and to send a message to the other recruits. That's beyond ruthless. In a number of origins he kidnaps you using the Rite of Conscription, even while leaving your loved ones to terrible fates.

Duncan was abit of a a-hole, especially in the human noble origin when he essentially blackmailed the HN's parents in order to recruit them